posted
I've been reading about this Western Fence Lizard. As some of you should already (I read about it on these forums first) have heard of this whole story, it involves a lizard (the western fence lizard), having a natural immunity against borrelia spirochetes.
When the ticks feed on the lizard, the lizard not only does not develop lyme disease, but the tick that fed, also has undetectable spirochetes in it's body! IIt would appear that the responsible chemical(s) have been isolated, but not yet "identified"??
If that is true, why the hell has it not yet been identified, and what is it? Anybody have any more information? They are saying it's (probably) a protein thermolabile.
The Lyme Disease Vaccine: Conception, Development, and Implementation ..."The western fence lizard, a principal blood source for the nymphal tick, contains a thermolabile borreliacidal factor (isolated but not yet identified) that has been shown to destroy almost all the spirochetes in vitro in less than 1 hour(26).
This is the source(26) for the PDF I just linked. If ANYBODY has free access to medical journals (School etc), could they please hook me up with the full article of this first study I noted here?..
-------------------- "You know, the worst, meanest, nastiest, ticks in the world are politicks," - Steve Nostrum Posts: 242 | From South NJ | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
I wish Dr. Lane would look at melatonin, NAT 1 and NAT2 (enzymes) levels as well as serotonin/tryptophan levels,histadine and LEPTIN.
I thought it was the powerful antioxidant, melatonin, but it sure as heck doesn't seem to destroying Bb in humans. It helps in some respects, but doesn't appear to actually destroy Bb.
Like other lizards, it feeds on insects which are very high in acids. It is possible that heat impacted these acids (negative charges competing - downregulating).
When he boiled the lizard's blood, it lost it's protective factor.
Enzymes are easily destroyed via heat, so he surmised it maybe an enzyme (or hormone) that is protecting the lizard.
I, too, wonder why a LOT more research is not being done to determine what IS the protective factor.
Now this too:
Absence of measurable malaria-induced mortality in western fence lizards (Sceloporus occidentalis) in nature: a 4-year study of annual and over-winter mortality
Leptin and N-acetyltransferase are related...and our immune response...
I hope you understand that we are also talking about fast/slow metabolizers.
Posts: 9426 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
CatalysT, you've already found a few excerpts that I've never seen.
The latest I got from Professor Lane was that he has found that the phenomenon of ``curing'' infected nymph ticks who feed on the WF Lizard hold true not only for Borrelia burgdorferi, but also for Borrelia bissettii, which I found to be significant, since B. bissettii is found in several U.S. states and known to cause Lyme-like illness.
But I don't know what research is being done on the actual ``thermolabile borreliacidal factor''.
There have been similar studies done on crocodile blood, which has similar odd properties in that it prevents infections even from the most serious injuries to the croc. I think I read where they thought it was some kind of peptide in the croc blood, but don't quote me. I'm relying on my memory, and how scary is that.
You would think that there would be a lot of funding for these types of research endeavors, but apparently not. The pharmaceutical companies certainly would not be interested in research unless there is something there that they can patent and make big bucks from.
If there is no money to be made, the research goes unfunded. That seems to be the bottom line.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
if I had western fence lizard last night I would have ate him alive.
Posts: 290 | From ohio | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Random thoughts re: what protects the western fence lizard and NOT US? What does Bb do to US:
We seem to be stuck in a first line of defense -an immediate "allergic" reaction - to Bb. IgE instead of IgG. Too much TNF alpha and too much Interleukin 1 beta (IL1 b)
This maybe in part attributed to the # of fab damaged IgG antibodies. HEALTHY IgG antibodies should be able to knock off Bb.
However,
"The factors that lead to production of IgE or IgA ***instead of IgG*** are not well understood."
It maybe:
"These results suggest that certain mutations in the NAT2 gene may be associated with high total IgE levels."
But IL1 B looks to impact that gene (negatively).
TNF alpha is triggered when the cell nucleus releases a signaling enzyme, NFkB. TNF alpha looks to trigger IL 1 beta (involved with insulin control) and IL 1 beta impacts N-acetyltransferase enzymes (NAT)- needed to convert serotonin (5HTP from tryptophan) to melatonin.
Increases in TNF alpha and IL 1 beta FURTHER lower tryptophan. See below.
Both TNF alpha and IL 1 beta have protective as well as destructive properties.
Pineal gland...western fence lizard. Perhaps this lizard has an abundance of "protective" tryptophan...OR is it the powerful antioxidant, melatonin?
"Pro-inflammatory cytokines such as IL-1[beta], IFN-[alpha], IFN-[gamma] and TNF-[alpha] affect the 5-HT metabolism directly and/or indirectly by stimulating the enzyme indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase which
***leads to a peripheral depletion of tryptophan."***
Not enough tryptophan -> not enough serotonin -> not enough melatonin.
It appears ENDOGENOUS nitric oxide lowers both TNF alpha and IL 1 Beta and so does the Omega 3s.
Here are some old files:
"recent discoveries have found that the pineal gland in the Western Fence Lizard contains a photo-receptive element scientist called a "third eye" that protruded from the top of its head.
Being a hormone, a protein, this would be destroyed by heat when the blood is boiled.
Now deer are a common carrier of the ticks that transmit lyme too...what protects them?
This?
This study demonstrates the presence of G-protein-coupled
melatonin receptors
over a wide range of tissues in red deer fetuses from early in gestation, indicating that in addition to its role in the communication of photoperiodic information to the fetus in this species, melatonin may be involved in fetal growth and development.
and reversal of events that took place in the first half
lead to switching OFF of MELATONIN synthesis.
PMID: 15782814
Tryptophan or melatonin?
Reiki says there is a tyrosine/tryptophan "defect" due to low Mg. Tyrosine is going into the cells, keeping tryptophan out (the amino acids compete).
Here's something else to worry about:
"Concentration of digoxin, a *modulator of amino acid transport*, and the activity of HMG CoA reductase, which synthesizes digoxin..."
PMID: 11025626
If we INactivate HMG CoA reductase (as Mg leaves the muscle cells at the outset of lyme)...and halt VLDL (very low density lipoprotein - contain choline) release... are we also impacting the synthesis of digoxin and altering the amino acid transport into the cells?
Does this "free up" the amino acids to make the immunoglobulins?
Mg is an antihistamine, anti-inflammatory...without enough, too much of a IgE (allergic) reaction? It appears C-acetyltransferase triggers this allergic reaction, not N-acetyltransferase.
Found this:
"Isoprenoid pathway (cholesterol pathway) activity is required for IgE receptor-mediated, **tyrosine kinase-coupled transmembrane signaling*** in..."
and...
"Engagement of the high-affinity IgE receptor activates src protein-related tyrosine kinases
THE high-affinity IgE receptor (FcRI), which is expressed on the surface of mast cells and basophils, has a central role in immediate allergic responses."
Apparently IgE locks onto mast cells and causes them to burst open and release histamine.
Not all bad...
"Histamine: Substance that plays a major role in many allergic reactions.
Histamine dilates blood vessels and makes the vessel walls abnormally permeable. "
Now hopefully you can see why the body is choosing certain paths when others fail....IgE if IgG isn't sufficient, perhaps.
[ 22. January 2007, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posts: 9426 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just curious: how difficult do you think it would be to do this lizard research? Are we talking a total shot in the dark right now in terms of finding the responsible agent(s), or do scientists know a little something about where they might look?
I think I recall in a phone call I made to Dr. Lane that he mentioned the lizard complement system being different than ours. So how hard would it be to track that down?
Could we work on getting some research funded?
Posts: 13117 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
quote: ***leads to a peripheral depletion of tryptophan."***
Thanks for the explanation Marnie.
I may have already posted this so sorry if I have.
Neopterin production and tryptophan degradation in acute Lyme neuroborreliosis versus late Lyme encephalopathy.Gasse T, Murr C, Meyersbach P, Schmutzhard E, Wachter H, Fuchs D. Klinik fur Neurologie, Universitat Innsbruck, Austria.
Fourteen patients with Borrelia burgdorferi infection were investigated for possible abnormalities of tryptophan and neopterin metabolism. Four patients (2 were investigated before therapy, 2 when therapy had been already started) had acute Lyme neuroborreliosis, and 10 patients were investigated months to years after an acute infection. Increased concentrations of neopterin and of the tryptophan-degradation product, L-kynurenine, were detected in the cerebrospinal fluid of patients with acute Lyme neuroborreliosis; one patient presented with subnormal tryptophan. Similar but less marked changes were seen in the treated patients and in some of the patients with Lyme encephalopathy. No such abnormalities were seen in the serum of the patients. The data indicate a role of the immune system and particularly of endogenously formed cytokines, like interferon-gamma and tumour necrosis factor-alpha, effecting tryptophan and neopterin metabolism in patients with acute Lyme neuroborreliosis.
PMID: 7865624 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
I have high kynurenate so it looks like the tryptophan is possibly not being broken down into serotonin.
http://www.discover.com/issues/oct-05/features/behavior/ This article also talks about Fallon's study but I only included part of the article here. "Recent research has shown that the cascade of signals in the proinflammatory immune response tend to cause the amino acid tryptophan to break down into kynurenic acid rather than serotonin, a brain chemical that influences mood. ``That's extremely interesting,''says Fallon, ``because serotonin depletion seems to be involved in depression. So you can see a very clear mechanism whereby people with chronic immune activation can become depressed.''"
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Anyone done an experiment taking a bunch of tryptophan or its precursor?
Ok, I've heard alot about this western fence lizard, but what about the northern, southern and eastern fence lizards? Do they have anything to recommend them?(Warning: this post may be medically incorrect)
Mood Rx: Lymenuts CD site -- we're currently exploring the various Infected States of America...
Posts: 13117 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
quote: Anyone done an experiment taking a bunch of tryptophan or its precursor?
Is there a precurser to tryptophan? Tryptophan is the precurser to serotonin.
I had test results with recommendations, some of which recommended supplementation with tryptophan. When I used tryptophan and a combination of other amino acids per my tests and muscle testing, my pain levels dropped by 50% maybe a bit more. That's saying a LOT since I was literally wracked with pain.
Caution: L-Tryptophan should not be taken with any other medications that increase serotonin in the brain without supervision from a qualified medical practioner due to the risk of a serious problem called serotonin syndrome. Terry I'm not a doctor
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was thinking of 5-HTP -- looked it up. Turns out it's a precursor for serotonin, not tryptophan. My previous post is medically incorrect...
The website says the order goes like this: tryptophan to 5-HTP to serotonin to N-Acetyl serotonin to melatonin. I believe tryptophan has been banned(?) so people take 5-HTP now?
It's interesting to google 5-HTP. Some people have done ok with it, some haven't.
Posts: 13117 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
As I said, I take tryptophan and it has not been banned (see below for further details on a ban years ago). Source Naturals makes tablets and capsules.
Cutting and pasting my research:
L-Tryptophan is one of 20 essential amino acids. Essential amino acids cannot be made inside the body and therefore must be supplied in the diet or through supplements. � L-Tryptophan is a pre-curser to serotonin (a nuerotransmitter), melatonin (a neurohormone) and niacin (also known as nicotinic acid or vitamin B3). Dietary L-Tryptophan is converted to niacin in the body.
Serotonin is a nuerotransmitter that helps control functions related to mood, behavior, appetite and sleep.�Neurotransmitters are chemicals that carry messages from nerve cells to other cells. Melatonin is a hormone manufactured from serotonin. It regulates the human biological clock. The human biological clock (circadian rhythm) signals the secretion of various hormones at certain times in order to regulate body functions.
L-Tryptophan is known to be safe because it has been used in the research field for decades as a control when testing other drugs. One should not take L-Tryptophan with other medications or supplements that alter serotonin without the supervision of a medical professional. Please see warnings below for further information.
It is now available over the counter again but during the 1990's it was pulled by the FDA and banned for use. It turned out that the problems associated with L-Tryptophan were related to one product manufacturer who produced a single contaminated batch. Some think that the FDA over-reacted in part due to influence from pharmaceutical companies whose anti-depressant drugs were in direct competition with tyrptophan.
Anxiety Some people get relief of anxiety with supplementation of L-tryptophan. A study that induced L-tryptophan depletion concluded that females tend to show anxiety as a result of depletion.10
Blood Sugar L-Tryptophan decreases cravings for carbohydrates. Carbohydrates convert to sugar and thus, eating less carbohydrates will help control blood sugars.
Depression L-Tryptophan is well-known to help relieve depression because it increases serotonin. Serotonin helps alleviate depression and related disorders such as PMS (premenstrual syndrome). Unlike antidepressant drugs known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) that only preserve the amounts of serotonin already in circulation, L-Tryptophan actually changes into additional serotonin.
Pain L-Tryptophan has been shown to decrease pain sensitivity.6 In a double blind study, L-Tryptophan (500 mg every four hours) taken the day before a dental procedure significantly decreased the pain intensity experienced by patients.7 In a preliminary trial, 3 grams of L-Tryptophan taken daily for four weeks significantly decreased pain in people with chronic jaw pain.8 In another study on pain tolerance levels were significantly higher in the group receiving tryptophan.
Sleep �L-Tryptophan helps initiate sleep because it raises serotonin. L-Tryptophan is effective for insomnia.4 Increasing L-Tryptophan may help to normalize sleep patterns. � Chronic Fatigue Syndrome A review of articles found by searching eight medical search engines looking for information regarding pain and CFS, concluded that some researchers theorize that L-Tryptophan may be related to pain in CFS.3
In one study designed to measure L-Tryptophan availability to the brain of CFS patients, two sub-groups were identified, one with normal serotonin levels and the other with a high serotonin status.4 Anyone with a diagosis of CFS should be cautious when supplementing with L-Tryptophan until more is known about the relationship between L-Tryptophan and CFS.
�Fibromyalgia Animal and human studies show a relationship between reduced brain serotonin metabolism and pain reactivity. Plasma-free L-Tryptophan is shown to be inversely related to the severity of pain in a small group of patients who fulfilled fibromyalgia criteria in this older study.5
Lyme Neopterin production and L-Tryptophan degradation in acute Lyme neuroborreliosis versus late Lyme encephalopathy. �
Aids L-Tryptophan Metabolism in Chronic Disease and AIDS In cell cultures, L-Tryptophan depletion has been found to be the mechanism by which IFN-gamma acts against replication of such parasites as Toxoplasma gondii, Chlamydia trachomatia and Clamydia psittaci. Supplemental L-Tryptophan reverses this inhibition [Brown, et al., 1991].
As alternatives to L-Tryptophan, 5-hydroxyL-Tryptophan (5-HTP), serotonin, N-acetylserotonin and melatonin may be used to fortify the serotonergic nervous system.
Warnings:
Too much L-Tryrptophan can cause headaches, sinus congestion or constipation.1 It is thought that L-Tryptophan may worsen migraine headaches..2
L-Tryptophan should not be taken with any other medications that increase serotonin in the brain without supervision from a qualified medical practioner due to the risk of a serious problem called serotonin syndrome. Serotonin syndrome is caused by an excess amount of serotonin in the brain. It is rare but can be life threatening so anything that increases serotonin should be taken with caution especially if combined with other medications or supplements that alter serotonin.
This is not an all inclusive list but medications and supplements that alter serotonin are: L-Tryptophan increase serotonin synthesis MAOIs decrease serotonin metabolism SSRI's a class of anti-depressants that increase serotonin release; inhibit serotonin uptake ; and stimulate certain serotonin receptors
Possible symptoms of serotonin syndrome include mental confusion, hypomania, hallucinations, agitation, headache, coma, shivering, sweating, fever, hypertension, tachycardia, nausea, diarrhea, myoclonus/clonus (muscle twitching), hyperreflexia, tremor.
Before taking any supplements, consult with your health care provider. This information is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. We do not accept any responsibility for the accuracy of the information or the consequences arising from the application, use, or misuse of any of the information contained herein.
References 1. Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw, "Life Extension, A practical scientific approach", Warner Books
2. Skye Liniger, D.C., Editor in Chief, Jonathan Wright, M.D., Steve Austin, N.D., Donald Brown, N.D., Alan Gaby, M.D. "The Natural Pharmacy", pg 91
3. Meeus M, Nijs J, Meirleir KD., "Chronic musculoskeletal pain in patients with the chronic fatigue syndrome: A systematic review.", Eur J Pain. 2006 Jul 12; [Epub ahead of print] Entrez PubMed
4. Badawy AA, Morgan CJ, Llewelyn MB, Albuquerque SR, Farmer A., "Heterogeneity of serum L-Tryptophan concentration and availability to the brain in patients with the chronic fatigue syndrome", J Psychopharmacol. 2005 Jul;19(4):385-91 Entrez PubMed
5.Moldofsky H, Warsh JJ., "Plasma L-Tryptophan and musculoskeletal pain in non-articular rheumatism ("fibrositis syndrome")", Pain. 1978 Jun;5(1):65-71.. Entrez PubMed
6. Leiberman HR, Corkin S, Spring RJ, et al., "Mood, performance and pain sensitivity: changes induced by food constituents" J Psychiatr Res 1982;17:135-45. Entrez PubMed
7. Shpeen SE, Morse DR, Furst ML. "The effect of L-Tryptophan on post-operative endodontic pain." Oral Surg Oral Med Oral Pathol 1984;58: 446-9. Entrez PubMed
8. Seltzer S, Dewart D, Pollack RL, Jackson E., "The effects of dietary Tryptophan on chronic maxillofacial pain and experimental pain tolerance.", J Psychiatr Res 1982-83;17(2):185-6. Entrez PubMed
9. Seltzer S, Stoch R, Marcus R, Jackson E., "Alteration of human pain thresholds by nutritional manipulation and L-tryptophan supplementation.", Pain. 1982 Aug;13(4):385-93. Entrez PubMed
10.Monteiro-dos-Santos PC, Graeff FG, dos-Santos JE, Ribeiro RP, Guimaraes FS, Zuardi AW., "Effects of tryptophan depletion on anxiety induced by simulated public speaking.", Braz J Med Biol Res. 2000 May;33(5):581-7 Entrez PubMed
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thx for the info, Terry -- how much tryptophan do you take and when do you take it? -- Robin
Posts: 13117 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
quote: Robin123: how much tryptophan do you take and when do you take it?
I take 750 mg with other amino acids in the evening about 1 1/2 hours before I want to go to sleep. When I first started taking it, I took 1.5 grams for the first few weeks (in the afternoon), again with other amino's. After my pain levels went down, I added 100 mg of 5-htp because it was indicated via muscle testing. Later I decided to move the time towards bedtime to see if it would help sleep and it does seem to allow me to sleep deeper.
So now I take 750 mg tryptophan and 100 mg 5-htp with a combo of other amino acids. Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay, please bare with me on this, I know it seems long but it's really not that much to digest.
All tryptophan is really needed for is it's source as a precursor for Serotonin and Niacin. The process goes; L-Tryptophan > 5-HTP > Serotonin > N-Acetyl-Serotonin > Melatonin > etc
Niacin is easy enough to get in food and supplementation. I'm not sure taking l-tryptophan is really a good idea with lyme disease.
The reason people with lyme disease don't make enough serotonin in the first place, is because the tryptophan is being converted into un-desirable metabolites like Quinolinic acid!
Sure, you can take more l-tryptophan, but you'll just end up with more of the excitoxic metabolite, quinolinic acid, which is a serious problem with lyme disease.
Tryptophan manufactures L-kynurenine as a metabolite. L-kynurenine is then made into either the neuroprotective agent kynurenic acid or to the neurotoxic agent quinolinic acid.
If you read that study, you will see the kynurenine metabolic pathway is altered in lyme. And Quinolinic acid is elevated!
"The presence of this known agonist of NMDA synaptic function--a receptor involved in learning, memory, and synaptic plasticity--may contribute to the neurologic and cognitive deficits seen in many Lyme disease patients."
Yes, you may 'feel better' after taking l-tryptophan, but I'm just not convinced that it's really a safe bet to be supplementing with it. Quinolinic acid elevations may lead to say, narcolepsy or other cognitive disorders, by excessive excitoxicity.
I would probably rather use 5-HTP. Tryptophan converts into 5-HTP before that converts into Serotonin. Tryptophan is also expensive and doesn't get into the Blood Brain Barrier all that well from supplementation.
HOWEVER, if you decide to use 5-HTP supplementally, I'd highly recommend NOT taking it at the same time as taking vitamin b6. That will just make it convert into serotonin in the body, which is not desirable.
ALSO, I would recommend against taking 5-HTP orally. I take mine sublingually. I just buy the pure powder, which can be found at places like beyond-a-century. I weigh mine out with my $10 double-beam scale, and place it under my tongue with some xylitol (for added absorption).
Then I swish it around every few seconds to increase contact with the buccal skin area, and spit out after about 10 minutes. Then I rinse my mouth.
I -know- that may sound very weird. The reasoning behind it, is to cut out the stomach. The gut has serotonin receptors and will gobble up the 5htp. Doing it sublingually will get more across the BBB (Blood Brain Barrier), and less into the periphery (rest of the body that's not the brain). There are un-desirable serotonin receptors in the periphery (on the heart, etc).
I know, it sounds weird! But honestly, that's the best way to do it in my opinion. You will feel it as soon as you spit the 5-htp out. I take 10-100mg. DO NOT TAKE with anti-depressant's!!!! Talk to your doctor too!
....as for the lizard...
I'm sure researchers could figure out how it works with a little bit of funding. Why the constituent(s) of the blood are not currently know?? I have no idea. I just want to know what it is, and what is going on with this.
The fact that the lizard blood -cured the tick- of spirochetes, makes it sound potentially very important to me. Thanks for the post about the malaria-resistance Marnie.
-------------------- "You know, the worst, meanest, nastiest, ticks in the world are politicks," - Steve Nostrum Posts: 242 | From South NJ | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Thanks for the info catalysT.
Yes, I was a bit worried about the tryptophan because I have elevated kynurenate as I mentioned before. The medical test that I had, showed the above normal kynurenate and said to be cautious with supplementation.
I checked this out with both my LLMD and LLND. Of course that doesn't mean that they fully understand the implications as you've explained them. I'll look into your info further and discuss it with my doctors.
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge on this.
Adding: I checked Buhner for quin acid supplements (to ameliorate) and he says zinc picolinate/copper, melatonin and resveratrol. I already take 2 of the 3 which may be why I haven't noticed the types of problems that one would have with high quin. I may add the 3rd if it muscle tests for me. Terry
[ 23. January 2007, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: TerryK ]
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
I've discussed the possibility of Lyme Disease causing narcolepsy, or a (permenant?) narcoleptic-like disorder, from elevated Quinolinic acid levels here.
To be honest, I'm not sure how open a medical doctor will be to you buying pure powder of 5-HTP, and administering it sublingually. You might be able to find sublingual/lozenge preperations of 5-HTP though (although with sugars probably), just be sure not to take it with b6. You can take the b6 later on.
I'm no expert these are just my personal observations/research conclusions/assumptions.
-btw-, if you do decide to take l-tryptophan , I believe it would be most efficient to take it on an empty stomach. Some amino's compete for absorption and consuming enough protein will make l-tryptophan's absorption and use to the brain negligable. That is the reason the 'turkey makes you tired because of l-tryptophan' story is a myth.
Also, Terry, although you may not 'notice' negative effects of QUIN toxicity, they make be gradually deleterious. I'm not trying to scare you, or make you join some 5-HTP cult, lol! I'm just sharing my concerns, as Buhner said before, any LD treatment is really experimental.
Some additional things that protect against QUIN toxicity are
You had mentioned melatonin. Good one! However, melatonin only has a 20 minute half-life! Weak! Regular release melatonin actually interferes with my sleep too. I HIGHLY recommend time/slow-release melatonin tablets. 0.5-50mg a night. Somewhere around a 6+ hour release I find to be best.
Various good brands make them (jarrow, source naturals, etc). The only brand of time-release I've tried that I found to be inferior was vitacost/NSI's.
Here's some additional sources on 5-HTP supplementation.
-------------------- "You know, the worst, meanest, nastiest, ticks in the world are politicks," - Steve Nostrum Posts: 242 | From South NJ | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
For tryptophan to convert to serotonin, I believe it needs OH.
Then it becomes what we know as 5HTP which converts directly to serotonin.
In the news today...the antidepressants can cause osteoporosis. Now..geeze...another puzzle piece! What is the link between serotonin levels and the nutrients needed to keep our bones healthy?
We need: Ca, Mg, phosphorus, vitamin D,and I believe... biotin for healthy bones. All in the right amts.
When Mg leaves the bones, they become hard and *brittle* and spontaneous fractures can happen.
When Calcium leaves the bones, they are weaker and also can break easily.
Babies (newborns) have a higher % of Mg to Ca in their bones and thus if we accidentally drop them, they don't break as easily ;-)
But, they need a LOT of calcium to harden their bones so they can stand and walk.
Getting back to tryptophan and histadine...
Interesting combo...turkey and corn. Much to be thankful for???
I used to think melatonin (by virtue of the antioxidant powers) was a good idea. I'm not too sure now. It appears our body does NOT want this conversion to happen.
Keep in mind, melatonin, from what I've read...also binds iron AND lowers Mg levels.
To shut off melatonin we need to increase acetylcholine, decrease norepinephrine (which ultimately converts to cortisol +).
What this all looks to boil down to is perhaps
getting hydrogen INTO THE MITOCHONDRIA.
Hydrogen is one thing that INactivates PFK...the rate limiting enzyme that Bb is dependent on. So do citrates...citric acid cycle vs. glycolysis, I suspect.
How to "flip the switch"? It may all hinge on ATP...making more (utilizing oxygen..getting MORE oxygen into the cells) to correct the Na-K pump and to drive Mg back INTO the cells.
Posts: 9426 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
No kidding- I used to fantasize about breeding a whole bunch of them and subsisting on a diet of them!!! (And I was hardcore vegetarian for a long time) What is interesting is
It is NOT just Lizards!!!
It is also the european blackbird I think...!!!!!
But that makes it seem even easier for them to find whatever it is!!! I wish they would!!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
Yup- thought I remembered right-! ************************************ 1: Exp Parasitol 1992 Mar;74(2):151-8
Loss of Lyme disease spirochetes from Ixodes ricinus ticks feeding on European blackbirds. Matuschka FR, Spielman A Department of Tropical Public Health, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts 02115.
To determine whether blackbirds (Turdus merula), the most abundant and most abundantly tick-infested ecotonal bird of Central Europe, may contribute to the transmission of the Lyme disease spirochete (Borrelia burgdorferi), we compared the infectivity to ticks of naturally as well as experimentally infected blackbirds and rodents. European blackbirds experience intense exposure to Ixodes ricinus ticks and to the pathogens that they transmit. In nature, subadult I. ricinus ticks found feeding on these birds generally contain no spirochetes, although infection is universal in those found on black-striped mice (Apodemus agrarius). Those found on yellow-necked mice (A. flavicollis) are less frequently infected. Ticks lose infection in the course of feeding on blackbirds and fail to infect them. Subadult I. ricinus ticks readily feed on blackbirds, black-striped mice, and jirds (Meriones unguiculatus), but engorge less fully on the bird than on the rodents. Although birds may burden human health by establishing new infestations of I. ricinus ticks, our observations indicate that particular birds may benefit health by locally diminishing transmission of the Lyme disease spirochete.
PMID: 1740177, UI: 92155297
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Great info catalysT and Marnie -
You will probably both shudder at this but I'm so happy that I can muscle test for ways to balance and check the safety for my particular body of some of these things. A good example - tryptophan. Shortly after I started tryptophan I started testing that I needed a zinc/copper combo. Now I know that I probably need it to deal with the quin. This sort of things happens all the time for me with muscle testing. After I've tested that I need something my research will often explain it or I'll later stumble across information that explains why I need it.
quote: catalysT:I'm just sharing my concerns, as Buhner said before, any LD treatment is really experimental.
I very much appreciate the information from both you and Marnie - it is very helpful.
Given that tryptophan has made a HUGE difference in the quality of my life (pain way down) I will continue to take it unless research, LLMD or LLND, muscle testing or actual results in my symptoms indicate that I should not take it.
I've been taking 5-htp for months and it seems to help with sleep. I added it after I started the tryptophan. Via muscle testing, 5-htp never tested well on me until I started the tryptophan so I suspect that I needed more tryptophan before I addeded the 5-htp. Doesn't make sense though given the path of tryptophan. It could also be that my body has changed as a result of bug killing. Many things that I wanted to try before I started therapy did not test well but now they do. Over the many years that I've used muscle testing, I've learned that if it does not test well, best not to use it because if I do, I usually pay for it.
There is much to digest here from both of you and further research to do as a result.
I'm very interested in a possible quin -> narcolepsy connection. My sister is sick like I am and this last year she developed narcolepsy and other seizure episodes. I've found several references (not published studies) that refer to lyme as a cause for narcolepsy. Now I'm wondering if my sister goes on something to ameliorate the quin, will that help her narcolepsy? Any comments?? CatalysT - have you found anything besides stimulants that help??
"Recently, the role of cytokines and growth hormone in the regulation of sleep and narcolepsy has been considered, and data suggest that proinflammatory cytokines may be involved in sleep and narcoleptic symptoms."
quote: Marnie - When Mg leaves the bones, they become hard and *brittle* and spontaneous fractures can happen.
As a child I was in a major flare - in the hospital most of a year with something that the docs could not figure out - I now know it was Bb. - anyway, during that time I had very brittle bones. I actually broke my ankle 2X's and wrist, all on separate occassions from seemingly minor falls, all in one year so what you are saying makes sense to me and answers that question. During that time, I also had HUGE BRUISES - still don't know what that is all about but it's obvious that my veins or capillaries became very weak.
I was very concerned about taking melatonin when I started it several years ago. I'll cut and paste my research here in case any of it is of use to you. If you want the links in the text and the side panels of the page, PM me and I'll send you the link. Melatonin is a hormone manufactured from serotonin and secreted by the pineal gland. Melatonin regulates the human biological clock. The human biological clock (circadian rhythm) signals the secretion of various hormones at certain times in order to regulate body functions. Many melatonin receptors are found in the body, which explains its multiple functions as biological rhythms resynchronisation, sleep induction, regulation of the blood vessels and even the ability to alter the function of the immune system. It is known to be helpful with insomnia and jet lag. It may be useful in sleep disorders such as Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD), insomnia and sleep disorders, associated with circadian rhythm disturbances.6,15
Melatonin is a powerful anti-oxidant. Because of it's ability to help keep harmful oxidation reactions from occurring, it may help prevent the changes that lead to hypertension and heart attack as well as reduce the risk of certain kinds of cancer. It also plays a major role in the production of estrogen, testosterone and possibly other hormones.15
Melatonin naturally decreases with age. Light affects melatonin production and as night approaches, melatonin production increases, initiating sleep. Bright light can acutely suppress human melatonin production.
Circadian Rhythms .The circadian rhythm is the name given to 24 hour physiological cycles in plants and animals. Some physiological functions that are linked to this 24 hour cycle are sleeping, eating, brain wave activity, hormone production and cell regeneration.
Melatonin acts to reinforce the functioning of the human circadian rhythm. It can induce sleepiness and lower core body temperature as well as change the timing of rhythms. It can change rhythms and maintain those changes in most blind and some sighted people. It has been proven to be a successful treatment for circadian rhythm disorders, particularly the non-24-h sleep wake disorder of the blind.12
Insomnia Adults with insomnia may have lower levels of melatonin.5. Many studies have shown that melatonin is useful in helping those with insomnia. Melatonin has no sedative effect for sleep if a person's melatonin levels are normal.10,11 Some medical practitioners have voiced concern that if you are not deficient and you take melatonin, you could cause your body to stop making it's own melatonin. For this reason, you may want to consider getting a home test before taking melatonin.
Melatonin At Home Test Kit - search the site for Melatonin Test Kit
Melatonin is often helpful for insomnia in the elderly because melatonin is deficient in a large number of elderly insomniacs. 13 Melatonin is said to decrease with age. Vitamin B12 affects melatonin secretion.14 It's possible that the low levels of melatonin in the elderly may be related to their Vitamin B12 status.
Jet Lag A review of 10 medical studies concluded that melatonin is very effective in reducing or eliminating the effects of jet lag.4
Night time shift workers Shift workers may benefit from melatonin for resynchronization of their sleep schedules.6
Diabetes and blood sugar effects The role of melatonin in human insulin regulation is poorly understood however one animal study determined that melatonin caused a rise in blood sugars. The ability of melatonin to stimulate insulin output was dose dependent. Higher doses of melatonin caused a significant rise in blood sugars whereas lower levels caused no change. 2
One study found that giving diabetic patients melatonin supplementation may have some benefit in controlling diabetic complications.1
Another animal study reported that long-term melatonin administration reduces high blood sugar and may help insulin resistance.3
Melatonin and Cancer Melatonin is currently involved in several studies that have been designed to determine a possible role in the treatment and prevention of various types of cancer.
Circadian cycle of melatonin is closely related to immune functions and its disturbance seems to induce a significant increase of cancer incidence.8
Melatonin stimulates the immune system which can help fight cancer and may be helpful in preventing cancers involving the reproductive system.15
CTV.ca | Hormone melatonin may slow breast cancer: study
Melatonin and Hair growth Alternative Medicine Review: Melatonin increases anagen hair rate in women with androgenetic alopecia or diffuse alopecia: results of a pilot randomized controlled trial
Dosage: Many alternative health care practioner's recommend between 1-3 mg at night-time. Currently, no toxic levels of melatonin have been found.15
Side Effects: There are few side effects with melatonin however some people have reported morning grogginess, undesired drowsiness, sleepwalking and disorientation.
Interactions Preliminary evidence suggests that melatonin may increase the effect of blood thinning agents such as warfarin so this warrants careful use among those using blood thinning agents, including supplements and herbs that thin the blood.
Valporic Acid or Depakene (an anticonvulsant), Prozac (fluoxetine) and corticosteroids such as prednisone and other synthetic drugs that are related to cortisol may lower levels of melatonin.16 For more information see: MedlinePlus Herbs and Supplements: Melatonin
Cautions Case reports suggest that people with epilepsy, and patients taking warfarin may come to harm from melatonin. 4 Some researchers feel that until further study is done, certain people should not use melatonin as a supplement because the results are not well known. This includes people with severe allergies or autoimmune diseases, including lupus, people with immune system cancers such as lymphoma and leukemia, individuals with depression or schizophrenia and healthy children who already produce adequate levels of melatonin. It has been hypothesized that melatonin should not be taken by nursing or pregnant women and those who wish to become pregnant may also want to avoid it since it has been shown that high doses of melatonin may act as a contraceptive.15, 7
Warnings: Before taking any supplements, consult with your health care provider. This information is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. We do not accept any responsibility for the accuracy of the information or the consequences arising from the application, use, or misuse of any of the information contained herein.
References 1. Paskaloglu K, Sener G, Ayangolu-Dulger G., "Melatonin treatment protects against diabetes-induced functional and biochemical changes in rat aorta and corpus cavernosum.", Eur J Pharmacol. 2004 Sep 24;499(3):345-54. Entrez PubMed
2. Fabis M, Pruszynska E, Mackowiak P., "In vivo and in situ action of melatonin on insulin secretion and some metabolic implications in the rat.", Pancreas. 2002 Aug;25(2):166-9. Entrez PubMed
3. Nishida S, Segawa T, Murai I, Nakagawa S., "Long-term melatonin administration reduces hyperinsulinemia and improves the altered fatty-acid compositions in type 2 diabetic rats via the restoration of Delta-5 desaturase activity.", J Pineal Res. 2002 Jan;32(1):26-33. Entrez PubMed
4. Herxheimer A, Petrie KJ., "Melatonin for the prevention and treatment of jet lag.", Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2002;(2):CD001520. Entrez PubMed
5. Attenburrow ME, Dowling BA, Sharpley AL, Cowen PJ., "Case-control study of evening melatonin concentration in primary insomnia.", BMJ. 1996 May 18;312(7041):1263-4. Entrez PubMed Case-control study of evening melatonin concentration in primary insomnia -- Attenburrow et al. 312 (7041): 1263 -- BMJ
6. Folkard S, Arendt J, Clark M., "Can melatonin improve shift workers' tolerance of the night shift?" , .Chronobiol Int. 1993 Oct;10(5):315-20. Entrez PubMed
7. Skye Lininger, D.C., Editor in Chief, Jonathan Wright, M.D., Steve Austin, N.D., Donald Brown, N.D. and Alan Gaby, M.D. "The Natural Pharmacy"
8. Kwiatkowski F, Abrial C, Gachon F, Chevrier R, Cure H, Chollet P., "[Stress, cancer and circadian rhythm of melatonin.]", Pathol Biol (Paris). 2005 Jun;53(5):269-72. Epub 2005 Jan 20. Entrez PubMed
9. Lewy AJ, Sack RL, Singer CM., "Melatonin, light and chronobiological disorders", Ciba Found Symp. 1985;117:231-52. Entrez PubMed
10. Michael Murray, N.D., and Joseph Pizzorno, N.D., "The Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine".
13. Haimov I., "Melatonin rhythm abnormalities and sleep disorders in the elderly", .CNS Spectr. 2001 Jun;6(6):502-6. Entrez PubMed
14. Honma K, Kohsaka M, Fukuda N, Morita N, Honma S. "Effects of vitamin B12 on plasma melatonin rhythm in humans: increased light sensitivity phase-advances the circadian clock?", Experientia. 1992 Aug 15;48(8):716-20. Entrez PubMed
15. Phyllis A. Balch, CNC, "Prescription for Nutritional Healing, A practical A-To-Z Reference to Drug-Free Remedies Using Vitamins Minerals, Herbs and Food Supplements"
16. Schuyler W. Lininger, Jr. DC, editor in chief, Alan R. Gaby, MD, Steve Austin, ND, Forrest Batz PharmD, Eric Yarnell ND, Donald J. Brown ND, George Constatine RPh, PhD, "A-Z guide to drug-herb-vitamin interactions
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ok, so the European blackbird is another species causing loss of spirochetes? Again the question: is there any further research going on about this?
Posts: 13117 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Terry - Sorry to hear about your sisters narcolepsy, I know it sucks.
No, I've found nothing other than stimulants that helps "enough", and I've tried -a lot-. Adaptogens like Panax Ginseng "help". High dose gaba before sleep helps. Aniracetam can help. Acetylcholinesterase inhibitors (huperzine) can help, if tolerable [take them in the morning, not near bed time, as they will decrease NREM which is already near-non-existant with most narcoleptics.
Once you have -real- narcolepsy (according to the current theories), the damage is done, and no protection against QUINolinic acid, or neurotoxicity will help. I'd still be canning neuroprotectant agents though!!
Most the stimulants suck. Talking about stimulants is a touchy subject, if you'd like to really get into details you can PM me. Other than that, there's always Xyrem [GHB], which increases NREM, so that you get restorative sleep. Most the other sleep medications are crappy and I wouldn't take them.
I'm beginning to wonder if a 'narcoleptic-like syndrome/disease' can come about from lyme disease. Like an imbalance of neurotransmission could cause permenant fatigue unless corrected properly. A lot of stimulants wouldn't correct things properly, and thus burn you out and not work right. Like an imbalance/downregulation of D1-like dopaminergic transmission could be real bad.
I don't think melatonin is bad for lyme, nor would I worry about it chelating magnesium etc. Just take a magnesium salt that is efficient in delivery to the cells (magnesium orotate). Melatonin should be helpfull, as it inhibits NF-kB, and also protects against quinolinic acid neurotoxicity.
I'm still actively researching treatments, and alternative pathways to regaining my life back.
Sorry if this post seemed sloppy or whatever, I'm tired and it's real late, I'm going to bed.
Oh yea, I just got a prescription for methylcobalamin (type of b12) IntraMuscular injections. IT HELPS!!!! I take 10mg (that's 10,000mcg) a day. It helps me all day, but the best effect lasts about ~30 minutes. Burrascano talked about it in his treatment protocol. You can also get 5mg sublingual tabs from Jarrow that should be real good. There are studies showing that high doses >1mg, are bioavailable, and are absorbed via mechanisms independant of intristic factor.
Oh, I just skimmed that study w/the cytokines, -interesting-! Thanks TerryK
----------------------
BACK to the original Topic!
Why HAVEN'T these resistant properties been isolated/identified/explained?! Why does all funding money seem to go to bulls*** like genetic research ???
I'm half tempted to start elaborating on some conspiratal theories on that subject, but I think I may refrain for now...
It -may- not even be something very useful. I just want to know!!
Anyway, maybe I'll contact some of these authors, sometime when my mind is feeling alert enough, and report back here.
-------------------- "You know, the worst, meanest, nastiest, ticks in the world are politicks," - Steve Nostrum Posts: 242 | From South NJ | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[confused]](graemlins/confused.gif)
It could also be that my body has changed as a result of bug killing. Many things that I wanted to try before I started therapy did not test well but now they do. Over the many years that I've used muscle testing, I've learned that if it does not test well, best not to use it because if I do, I usually pay for it. 
Printer-friendly view of this topic