I stepped up the dose for the 2nd week in a row am now at 3 caps TID of each, cats claw, reservatrol, and andrographis. So far each time I increase the dose, I start herxing within hours and the herx symptoms will last for several days. By the end of the week, I begin to feel pretty normal. My main herx symptom which is key, is that my eyes start drooping a lot when I herx badly.
I've been on combo abx for over a year now, and added the core protocol a couple of weeks ago to really "blast" the little buggers out of my brain, and I can really feel it working.
and FYI, I got the approval of my LLNP before adding these herbs.
Posts: 449 | From Pasadena, CA, usa | Registered: Aug 2005
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Jill E.
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posted
I'm really interested in this protocol, too.
Did you add one herb at a time or start with all of them, but just at a lower dose?
Everyone seems to caution to start out slowly, and I'm sensitive to meds and things in general, so I'm wondering how slowly I would need to start out.
I plan to ask my LLMD about trying this along with abx.
Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I just started andrographis ( am also on doxy 200 mg daily ) and can not believe how powerful the stuff is . I can see why many people never get to the maximum dosage . Two tablets daily is having a major impact for me- lots of intense chills and fluey feeling , which is classic herxing ( always for me) .
I feel the die off symptoms literally about and hour and a half after taking one tablet .
Selma has had good results and still only takes four andro tablets daily .
I am hoping to see some benefit within four months since several here have said they began feelling better after the fourth month. Right now i feel worse , but I can not take ABX forever, so this is a good option to try - esp since others are saying that it works !
I'm following Buhner's protocol exactly, which is to start with 1 capsule TID for 1 week, then increase to 2 capsules tid for 1 week, etc until you get to 4 capsules Qid. I started taking all 3 of the core herbs at the same time.
I think I'm not herxing as badly as others might because I've already killed off a big load of Bb w/the abx I've been taking. But I definitely herx after stepping up the dose, and it makes me feel good to know that it's working.
I've read that some people such as Jennifer do have to reduce their dose initially due to the severity of the herx. So I think I'd start with what is recommended and adjust downward from there if you absolutely have to.
Posts: 449 | From Pasadena, CA, usa | Registered: Aug 2005
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hardynaka
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Member # 8099
posted
Psano, I think you're right. You probably don't have a high load of germs in you anymore that's why you could ramp up so fast.
I think I've never seen anyone ramping so fast as Buhner suggests. You're the first one, if my memory is good.
Hopefully you won't collapse. Beware of toxins. I got a major reaction to rizols and boneset these last 3 days. I'll post about it as soon as I understand better what happened, but I believe the boneset made a huge die off for my system. A die of of bartonela on top of my funghi die off from rizols!
I dropped andro now for the first time in 13 months!!!! Hopefully I wont' relapse.
I tell you guys that andro is so strong !!! Some people though react stronger to knotweed! I never seen many on boneset, but one has to beware about that too, I think.
SElma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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Jill E.
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9121
posted
Thanks for the clarification. I'm like you, I think I've knocked down a lot of the Lyme load from antibiotics. But Bart and Babs are a different story.
I have a friend whose LLND put her on just the Bart part of the protocol and it seemed to help for a while but then her symptoms started coming back. So I guess it's good to do the whole protocol, not just a couple of herbs.
Keep us posted with your progress.
Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
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Dave6002
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posted
You guys may be right: this depends on how much pathogen load you have.
I didn't follow Buhner's recommendation to ramp up gradually.
I took all the herbs at full dose(not a good idea) and I was fine so my pathogen load might be lower.
Anyway, I feel the herbs are working for me.
I didn't have such feelings with abx except Doxy at beginning.
I feel my current symptoms are mainly from Babesia. So later, I may try to get some Malaria herbs like Cryptolepis, which Stephan recommended highly over Artemisinin and showed good results in anti-Malaria trials. See the following link:
Dave
Posts: 1078 | From Fairland | Registered: Apr 2006
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MariaA
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Member # 9128
posted
I've never really herxed from anything that I've been able to notice, and ramped up very rapidly on the Buhner core herbs (though I had already been taking antibiotics for months). I did get vicious diarrhea when I ramped up too fast, but that might have been from any number of supplements I started simultaneously including fresh garlic, lots of carrot juice, lots of probiotics, and the Buhner herbs.
I did feel like I got a herx when I started boneset. I started garlic around the same time and I think I have BAD candida after all the antibiotics, so the herx-like feeling of being suddenly worse could have come from garlic killing off candida, or could have been from the boneset killing something, or modulating something in my immune system in a way that required my body to adjust.
These herbs are doing great for me right now without antibiotics, while I wait to hear about my bartonella test.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
I got off of Coptis this past Saturday night and started back on Andrographis on Sunday. I took two Andro on Sunday, 4 on Monday and 6 on Tuesday and Wednesday. Didn't notice much of anything one way or the other very different.
I had been on Coptis for a few months.
When I first started Andro about 14 months ago, I had to go really slow because of severe stomach pain prior to that. Just like I started all my herbs real slow then, even slower than Buhner recommends. Now, that I am used to the herbs, I can ramp up much quicker, AND because my stomach is so much better these days.
Even though I am taking amoxicillin now for prostatitis, have for the past 11 days. I have found, by the way, that taking the amox with a half glass of skim milk helps tremendously with the stomach pain I got from taking it with food.
hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
I just PMed Maria about boneset. I suspect big killings with it too. Buhner doesn't put any warnings...
The funny thing is that I remember Joyce (lymelight) was taking boneset when she had a liver colapse (high liver enzymes). She's got no computer now (crashed) for me to ask her.
Anyway, I almost crashed these last days with toxin load. And I'm pretty sure my borrelia load is low (as I was on 3 andro again, herxing zero for a long time, almost symptomless except for chills). I wonder if boneset doesn't kill bartonella and that one's got big die-off from bart (that I never treated before, and I'm suspecting higher load of bart).
Boneset looked to me inofensive in Buhner's description, but it seems to look a powerful herb for both killing and symptoms, to be taken with loads of cleansers....
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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MariaA
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posted
Yeah, I really don't know. It well might have been garlic and the 'herx' might be candida related, as you can get tired/achy/brainfogged when killing candida. ANd of course I have no idea if I might have something in my gut that the garlic killed, too- it's fairly common to have parasites or other intestinal issues with Lyme (partly because your immune system is suppressed and you can't fight off infections, partly because antibiotics cause all the candida and intestinal flora problems that some intestinal parasites and other bugs might take advantage of), and various gut infections can be killed off violently with garlic.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
Have you checked this site? Some People (like GiGi, JimBob) here including me highly recommend it. They are very reasonable. They are doing a good business.
Dave
Posts: 1078 | From Fairland | Registered: Apr 2006
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Boomerang
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7979
posted
Thanks Dave. No, I didn't have that site. I appreciate it! Will check it out right now.
Posts: 1366 | From Southeast | Registered: Sep 2005
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Boomerang
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7979
posted
Thanks again Dave. Just got my order placed, and am hoping for good things for my hubby!
Much appreciated.
Posts: 1366 | From Southeast | Registered: Sep 2005
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hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Andro from 1st chinese herbs is NOT standardized, but cheap. If you buy the powder anyway, you have to do the capsules yourself (andro is too bitter to try in water for normal people...).
If you want to see the strong power of andro, I would buy the standardized form (10% andrographolides), he states that somewhere in the book. I would go for the non-standardized only later in the protocol.
The andro I took was Planetary Formulas, costs about 8 dollars for 120 pills, last quite some time if you're on 3 a day.
1st chinese has standardized, but more expensive than the vitacost, if my memory is good.
1st chinese is good for many other of his herbs.
And Maria, many thansk for you comments. I'm on rizols, so killing funghi too. I know these were very toxic... Just trying to put make the puzzle.
Thanks, Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
I personally bought 5 bottles of Andro tablets when I first started herbs 14 months ago. THEY were unGodly bitter.
Then I went to two or three of Solaray's Andrographis that has 4% Andrographolides. Then went to the whole herb in bulk and encapsulated them myself.
When you are taking 12 to 16 of them a day, the cost is unbearable for most of us out here. I had to sell a car, in order to get started on herbs. I had NO MONEY at all. At least not for my health. Barely squeaked by for food, and other "necessities" at the time. I have sold several cars and trucks since to survive.
Running out of the good stuff. Fortunately, I am only taking half as many herbs as Buhner recommends now. Only about 1300 capsules a month, plus tinctures now. Big savings.
Plus, Buhner, "prefers" we all take the "Natural Whole Herbs" as much as is possible. It taxes our systems less, and builds up our immune system to do the actual fighting against these wicked bugs that found their way inside of us.
I personally am "surprised" that you herx any amount from HERBS. Truly! IF taken properly, the herxes should be almost non-existant. THAT is what Sarsaparilla and Red Root are for.
FEEL WELL, when you BE WELL.
When I do not feel well, I KNOW something is wrong.
you wrote: "THAT is what Sarsaparilla and Red Root are for."
I have some Sarsaparilla powder and for a while I was making a decoction with it along with a long list of other South American herbs... but it was such a bother to make the decoction. (sarsaparilla, pau d'arco, cats claw, olive leaf, ginger; plus in tea, yerba matte, nettle leaf and peppermint).
Back when I was making it every day it helped but my adrenals were too down to really handle it.
So could you explain again what they are for?
Thanks!
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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Boomerang
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7979
posted
So, are you guys saying I bought the wrong stuff?
What I ordered was: 400 mg with 10%...
Did I get the wrong thing? I really thought I was ordering what Buhner described in his book.
Book says: Initial dosing: 1-400 mg capsules 3-4x daily of a preparation standardized to 10% andrographolides......
Do I have something confused? Thanks!
Posts: 1366 | From Southeast | Registered: Sep 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
No Boomerang, you are okay. It is just that once you get to the maximum of the protocol along with all the OTHER herbs that are necessary in this Lyme fight; the cost will be prohibitive, UNLESS you are one of the rich.
I was up to more than 2500, maybe more like 2700 capsules a month for several months. Figure it out, the cost would have ended my taking any herbs IF I had continued that way of doing it, by buying capsules in already made bottles of them from these companies.
RUTH, RUTH:
That IS a complicated tea. I take ALL my herbs in veggie capsules, except for Red Root and Periwinkle, which I make tinctures for. I am also now going to make Stephania Root in tincture and see IF I notice any difference when taking it that way. THat is a few weeks down the road though.
The Sasparilla is a great BLOOD CLEANER. Good for other things too, but especially a blood cleanser to help keep you from herxing so bad. AND Red Root is probably the best Lymph system cleanser. It helps the whole lymph system which is comprised of the lymph nodes, liver, tonsils, back of throat, etc., etc.. IT is the part of your body that gets rid of all the poisons you couldn't survive with.
Milk Thistle is also goood for liver support.
IF you are on abx, you will want Acidophilus also. A pro-biotic.
posted
I just started the Buhner protocol almost two weeks ago. I am now taking the core protocol (2 pills of each) three times a day. As for Smilax - I ordered the tincture. I just take a dropperful in water 3x/day. Is that right? I don't even know how much that is.
As for herxing - not much except for last Thursday evening into Friday. I had gone to my rolfer. He must have loosened up a lot of bad stuff. I couldn't stay awake, felt very fluish and had a bad headache.
Has anyone had success with this protocol?
Posts: 34 | From New York State | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Yes, many people have found this protocol beneficial.
I have been on ABX for a year , and just switched to andrographis . I am taking three capsules daily and feel like I have been run over by an 18 wheeler .
I will pull up some old posts by those on the protocol.
I am impressed by the responses and by the number of people who also have found rife to be a great help.
sizzled
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1357
posted
Good stuff!
Posts: 4258 | From over there | Registered: Jul 2001
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Okay, Jennifer. NOW quit the Andrographis and try, Cat's Claw or Resveratrol and see what THAT does for you. IF you feel better, keep on with them, and then SLOWLY ADD in the Andrographis and see WHAT happens.
Also, I would not be taking any of these without take Sarsaparilla at the same time. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't do them without my Red Root tincture AND Milk Thistle.
I read in one of your posts, (it might not have been this thread) that you were taking 9 caps of Andro/day & I assume the same of Cats Claw and reservatrol, but 12/day of sarsparilla.
Did you ever take 16 caps of the Andro, Cats claw and reservatrol/day? That's the max recommended dose in Buhner's book.
Just wondering. I'm up to 12/day of each now. So in a week or so, I'm due to go to 16/day.
Posts: 449 | From Pasadena, CA, usa | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Jim Bob, I actually had a decent day finally after a tough week and a half . I have raised my dose to four capsules daily now and will see how things go. The sarsaparilla causes me to have difficulty sleeping .
I am taking samento ( cats claw) and will eventually add resveratrol ( knotweed). After getting used to andrographis, it should hopefully not be as hard .
I am glad to be off ABX for now. The yeast was clogging up my ears and made me feel totally toxic . I can even breathe better and my ears do not feel so full of fluid .
5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
Hardynaka-just wanted to know if anyone taking the boneset & knotwood are making you nauseated? In the book buhner states the bonest can cause nausea.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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MariaA
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Member # 9128
posted
Yes, i"ve seen nausea from both- i got it for a couple of days on boneset (it stopped after a while) and my boyfriend got very mild nausea taking knotweed (he's super sensitive to things that induce nausea).
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Dana, no nausea, only allergic reaction to boneset.
I was sure I was allergic to Knotweed too, I mean I got allergic to it (I was not before). Today I got ART tested: very allergic to Planetary Formula Resveratrol (which is whole herb + additives). But not allergic to whole plant.
A lesson I'm getting with herbs, for the ones who are sensitive as I am: DON'T TAKE lots of amounts of each herb as you CAN LOSE IT FOREVER!
If you improve no matter in which proportion (1/3 capsule a day), keep that proportion for longer, no ramping up.
My boneset ART-tested only 7 drops a DAY today. I was taking 4 droppersfull and getting the most strange reactions in my head!!! The doctor said I test a bit allergic to it. I really suspect that increasing the dose to more than your body wants is very bad.
I could take about 6 capsules a day of the Planetary Formula Knotweed in the past, if I remember well. Now, I can't take even 1/3 of a capsule a day! My mouth burns, I get totally high.
I took knotweed by myself, if I remember well (not through ART measures).
I guess Gigi had posted about that before, that she needed rotation of herbs not to get allergic.
I didn't need rotation of all herbs (I kept core protocol for a long time), but I needed low doses. With that low doses, I could take the main herbs until I got better. I changed other side-herbs though very often (every 3 weeks).
I guess that if I continued on high doses of boneset, I could lose that precious herb soon.
I took also a strong pure tea of knotweed (without additives) and also got burning mouth some time ago. As it's not testing allergic, I guess it was a matter of proportion (like with boneset). I will need to test it again to get my right tea 'dilution'.
But I certainly lost the ability to take the pill form. So I just would like to add: for the ones who are more sensitive, keep low on dosage IF you see improvement (herxes or improvement or both) or you may risk losing the wonderful herbs forever (or for a long time, in case you find a way to desensibilize (sp??, is this English??) one day.
I kept on level 1 forever and always improved (even if many months without knotweed). I'm off core protocol now, I'm dealing with funghi, bartonella and cleansing mainly.
Sarsaparilla tests no allergy for me, but my body doesn't need it for the moment (I guess because borrelia is not priority). No allergy for knotweed, but also no need for the moment either (ART tested today).
It's the first time ever I'm off protocol for a week. Still fine so far!
Good luck to all. Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
I ALWAYS take my herbs with food. With my meals. And I usually only have two meals a day, but for the past year went to three meals a day. I did NOT want to go to four meals a day, so therefore NEVER got up to the 4 pills of each, 4 times a day. Instead I did 4 pills of each, 3 times a day.
Then I went down to about 3/4 that amount and now am down to 1/2 that amount, except for Sarsaparilla and Devils Claw. I am taking 4 pills, two times of day of each of those.
Yes, I was up to 4 pills, three times a day of Andro, Resveratrol, and Cat's Claw. But ALSO the same for Stephania Root. AND Milk THistle, Nettle I am down to two pills a day, from three.
Also Red Root tincture and Periwinkle tincture, I am down to two times a day from three times a day. Same with the C-Salts.
I have found IF you are on abx, it is best to NOT take them with the meals, but rather a 1/3 glass of skim milk, NO food. THis is especially true if they bother your stomach so bad as they do mine. I have been taking amoxicillin for almost three weeks now for prostatitis, and I could not have gotten through all this time, IF I had not switched to with food to without and with milk. It works for me. The prostatitis is good now too. Will be quitting amoxy on Sunday and see what happens.
Hope this all helps folks. GOt to get to bed, very tired. See you when I get here again. Busy, busy, busy.
IF Sarsaparilla makes it hard for you to sleep. Try NOT taking it later in the day. Maybe just for morning and afternoon. Hops make you sleep better. You can get that from many online companies.
Glad you had a decent day. Hope you have lots of them soon.
Jim. ###
quote:Originally posted by Jennifer Geddie: Jim Bob, I actually had a decent day finally after a tough week and a half . I have raised my dose to four capsules daily now and will see how things go. The sarsaparilla causes me to have difficulty sleeping .
I am taking samento ( cats claw) and will eventually add resveratrol ( knotweed). After getting used to andrographis, it should hopefully not be as hard .
I am glad to be off ABX for now. The yeast was clogging up my ears and made me feel totally toxic . I can even breathe better and my ears do not feel so full of fluid .
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