They have found that Samento encourages the growth of borrelia and are warning people to NOT take it for lyme. So far the tests are only in test tubes and cell cultures and the results haven't been published yet. They do not seem to be testing it for its immune modulating properties.
Posts: 51 | From England | Registered: Oct 2005
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Vermont_Lymie
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Yikes!
Thanks for the warning Elinor. I have been taking Samento for the past two weeks, in increasing amounts. I will reconsider.
The website is in German, which I cannot read. Are they testing whole cats claw herb as well?
Thanks for the warning!
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
They don't say if they also tested the whole herb Cat's Claw.
I know they also tested teasel root and it showed that it can indeed kill borrelia in vitro. BUT to kill them, the concentrations of teasel root would need to be so incredibly high that you cannot reach this level in a living human being.
Anyway, the results of this study have not been published yet. The info about Samento encouraging the growth of Borrelia in vitro somehow leaked out before.
Gabrielle
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TerryK
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I translated the abstract using the google translation tool and there is no mention of samento. I downloaded the pdf on the page that seems to go with the abstract and translated it but there was no mention of samento in it or of any plant abstract.
The pdf does not seem like it goes with the abstract. Where did you get the info about samento?
Here is the translation from google of the abstract
Project data base Therapy of the Lyme Borreliose: Effect of antibiotics and plant extracts on growth of Borrelia burgdorferi
At the university W�denswil we cultivate the Borrelien in nutritive solution and together with human Endothelialzellen. With this form of cultivation we have an instrument, in order to test antibiotics and plant extracts on the growth of the Borrelien.
Borrelia burgdorferi is able to form zystische forms in presence from penicillin and further antibiotics to. A combined treatment, of patients with Lyme Borreliose with antibiotics, which attack also the zystischen forms, could be a new therapy beginning.
In the context of the project different antibiotics, combinations at antibiotics and plant extracts from the wild Karde on your effectiveness against Borrelien are tested. It applies to determine the best beginning for one killing all Borrelien forms (motile and zystische) made possible.
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Vermont_Lymie
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Thank you Gabrielle and Terry for information and the translation (google is amazing).
Great that these researchers cared enough to let people know some results in advance to prevent harm to lyme patients. I wish we had more of this type of research done in the US!
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clairenotes
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Thank you... this is the kind of information we really need to see.
I did not feel my experience (albeit short) with samento was positive.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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cantgiveupyet
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Are Samento and Tao free cats claw the same thing?
I just started cats claw a week ago.
thanks
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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TerryK
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Elinor - please supply something that sustantiates your information. The page you sent does not mention samento and I can find nothing to verify your statements. If you don't have something that you can show us, then please supply your source.
Cave, where are your sources? You are usually quite good a supplying them. Please let us know where you got your information. I don't doubt it but I'd like to judge it's credibility for myself.
I've read and been told by a number of sources that samento is an immune modulator. That is very different from an immune stimulator.
My LLND got very good results when she treated herself for lyme with samento and enzymes. She was quickly losing sight in one eye and had some other alarming symptoms. With samento and enzymes she was able to fully regain her sight and now works full time in her practice and teaches at the naturopathic school. She is famous in my area and considered to be very smart. She treats many lyme/fibromyalgia/cfids patients and uses samento quite a bit with very good results. People come from other States to see her. I trust her.
Quite a number of doctors have written articles about their experiences with samento. One doctor studied patients who had high blood pressure and found that the blood pressure stabilized after a few weeks on samento and some were able to discontinue their pharmaceuticals. I don't know if they were CFIDS patients but to my knowledge, the majority of CFIDS patients have low blood pressure, not high blood pressure. I'm sure some must have high blood pressure but I don't know the numbers and I have seen nor heard any convincing evidence that samento is a problem for them. There is also info on protocols from several lyme doctors on their use of samento also several articles in the townsend letter and quite a few other articles.
Some people may well have problems with samento but I find it very hard to beleive that so many lyme patients would have such astounding results with it if it actually causes Bb to grow however, I am open to hearing any credible info. I'm sure my LLND would very much like to see anything that is available on this. Terry
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clairenotes
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Terry -- maybe it depends on the individual and their unique set of symptoms or co-infections, etc. Sometimes a remedy will not work for me at one time, but at another time, works quite well.
Somehow, when I took Samento, something was off... that didn't feel like a normal herx. Since I was having more success with other things, I dropped it.
Can'tgiveup -- Samento is TOA-free Cat's Claw as opposed to simply Cat's Claw.
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TerryK
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clairenotes
quote: maybe it depends on the individual and their unique set of symptoms or co-infections, etc. Sometimes a remedy will not work for me at one time, but at another time, works quite well
Yes, I believe you are correct. My LLND said that anyone who has an untreated babesia infection will not get better on samento. I was on it for 7 months and didn't get better but then I didn't know I had a babesia infection.
I also think it is very important to have adequate detox when taking samento and to use supplements that help build collagen. If those things are missing, one may not have good results. I found I also acquired a problem with yeast while on samento so I do believe it was killing off the good bacteria, similar to abx.
Many with fibromyalgia are not able to tolerate the doses that are recommended. This is not too different from those being treated for lyme not being able to tolerate normal doses of abx. I personally think that has more to do with detox capabilities and current body burden of endotoxins along with yeast issues than anything else.
Terry I'm not a doctor, just sharing my experience and knowledge.
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hardynaka
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Gabrielle is German!!
Gabrielle, did you actually hear about the info on Samento leaking in Germany?
The info provided on the link is only about Karde (= teasel). The online translator didn't have that word!!!
Samento here in Switzerland and Germany is called Samento, as far as I know (I buy it here, labelled Samento!).
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
It was recently posted in the German forum.
If I understood the whole thing correctly, some people that are well known in the Swiss Lyme world are researching on the diagnostic and therapy of Lyme Disease and Rickettsiosis.
They were checking antibiotics and other things for their ability to kill Bb. Among these other things there were the herbs teasel root and Samento.
One day, in another German Lyme forum, the news could be found that this research had shown that Samento encourages the growth of Bb and that therefore, it was recommended to not take it.
However, soon after, this message was erased again.
Then, a Swiss woman who writes in the German forum, happened to meet Prof. Dr. Sievers (who is part of this research group) in a supermarket, as I understood (Switzerland really seems to be small ).
He confirmed that his lab had found Samento to increase the growth of Bb in vitro. But he said he didn't publish the news. It had been passed on by other channels (whatever that means).
That's all I know.
BUT: I always thought that Samento wasn't supposed to kill Bb. It is said to boost the immune system which in turn is then supposed to kill Bb.
So I don't think that you can project the result of this (unfinished and unpublished) study on the use of Samento in vivo.
Maybe the Samento is good for Bb when they are in a glas in a lab. But when Bb are in us, maybe our "boosted" immune system is stronger than the "boosted" Bb?
But it's certainly not wrong to be careful. Personally, I took hubby off Samento for now.
Gabrielle
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TerryK
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Sounds very much like an urban myth and I'll treat it as such unless someone comes forward with something other than an unsubstantiated rumor. Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by TerryK: Sounds very much like an urban myth and I'll treat it as such unless someone comes forward with something other than an unsubstantiated rumor. Terry
That's why I didn't post it here. I wanted to wait and see what will be published in the end. The study is supposed to be published by the end of March.
Gabrielle
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klutzo
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I took Samento for over 3 years. It helped a lot, but with only a few of my symptoms, and it enabled me to lower my dosage of blood pressure meds by 1/4 (I have high BP).
I went off it because I do have FMS, and the herxes were so bad I could not get near the recommended dosage. I felt I needed a break.
All hell broke lose. The symptoms it had controlled came back with a vengence, esp. the chills, and my gallbladder crapped out, since the anti-inflammatory properties of Samento were no longer in play to keep it going. I am now trying to get the GB taken out and am very ill. I wish I had stayed on it.
It was no cure for me, but I can't see where it made me worse. I also have no right to judge it, since I never got near the normal dosage (Cowden Protocol) I would like more info on this warning though....I still have 1 2/3 bottles left.
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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It is good to differentiate between the herb and the extract. They may both have their uses in the healing process.
Samento is not only an extract, but the manufacturer states on the label that something additional has been done to the product. I suspect they are "infusing" energy patterns of some sort, but their only description is that it is a "proprietary" process.
The research and so on for unprocessed Cat's Claw is well documented in Rain-Tree's Database entry here.)
Here are some quotes and comments:
quote:In addition to the immunostimulant alkaloids, cat's claw contains the alkaloids rhynchophylline, hirsutine, and mitraphylline, which have demonstrated hypotensive and vasodilating properties. Rhynchophylline has shown to prevent blood clots in blood vessels, dilate peripheral blood vessels, lower the heart rate, and lower blood levels of cholesterol. Some of the newer research indicates that cat's claw might be helpful to people with Alzheimer's disease; this could be attributable to the antioxidant effects already confirmed or, possibly, to the dilation of peripheral blood vessels in the brain by alkaloids such as rhynchophylline.
This sounds like it is beneficial to the heart/circulatory systems. Also, it may be helpful because increased circulation in the brain is needed to help the immune system access those areas of infection.
quote:"Another significant area of study has focused on cat's claw's anti-inflammatory properties. While plant sterols and antioxidant chemicals found in cat's claw account for some of these properties, new and novel plant chemicals called quinovic acid glycosides were documented to be the most potent anti-inflammatory constituents of the plant. This study and subsequent ones indicated that cat's claw (and, especially, its glycosides) could inhibit inflammation from 46% up to 89% in various in vivo and in vitro tests. The results of these studies validated its long history of indigenous use for arthritis and rheumatism, as well as for other types of inflammatory stomach and bowel disorders. It was also clinically shown to be effective against stomach ulcers in an in vivo rat study."
This may be why it is being used for Crohn's and arthritis.
quote:Keplinger's work in the 1970s and 1980s led to several extracts of cat's claw being sold in Austria and Germany as herbal drugs, as well as the filing of four U.S. patents describing extraction procedures for the immune-stimulating oxindole alkaloids. These novel oxindole alkaloids fueled worldwide interest in the medicinal properties of this valuable vine of the rainforest. Other independent researchers in Spain, France, Japan, Germany, and Peru followed Keplinger, many of them confirming his research on the immunostimulating alkaloids in the vine and root. Many of these studies published from the late 1970s to early 1990s indicated that the whole oxindole alkaloid fraction, whole vine bark and/or root bark extracts, or six individually-tested oxindole alkaloids, when used in relatively small amounts, increased immune function by up to 50%. These study results were substantiated by Canadian researchers at the University of Ottawa (1999) and by Peruvian researchers (1998), both working with whole vine extract.
This does not say immune modulating, it says immune stimulating.
quote:Another research group recently reported that cat's claw's immune-stimulating alkaloids pteropodine and isopteropodine might have other properties and applications. They reported that these two chemicals have shown to have a positive modulating effect on brain neurotransmitters called 5-HT(2) receptors. These receptor sites are targets for drugs used in treating a variety of conditions, including depression, anxiety, eating disorders, chronic pain conditions, and obesity.
Anything that helps with depression/anxiety and/or chronic pain sounds beneficial.
quote:Contraindications:
* Cat's claw has been clinically documented with immunostimulant effects and is contraindicated before or following any organ or bone marrow transplant or skin graft. * Cat's claw has been documented with antifertility properties and is contraindicated in persons seeking to get pregnant. However, this effect has not been proven to be sufficient for the product to be used as a contraceptive, and it should not be relied on for such. * Cat's claw has chemicals that can reduce platelet aggregation and thin the blood. Check with your doctor first if you are taking coumadin or other blood-thinning drugs and discontinue use one week to ten days prior to any major surgical procedure. * Cat's claw vine bark requires sufficient stomach acid to help break down the tannins and alkaloids during digestion and to aid in absorption. Avoid taking bark capsules or tablets at the same time as antacids. Avoid taking high tannin (dark-colored) liquid extracts and tinctures directly by mouth and dilute first in water or acidic juice (such as orange juice). * Large dosages of cat's claw (3-4 gram dosages at a time) have been reported to cause some abdominal pain or gastrointestinal problems, including diarrhea (due to the tannin content of the vine bark) in some people. The diarrhea or loose stools tend to be mild and go away with continued use. Discontinue use or reduce dosage if diarrhea persists longer than three or four days.
Drug Interactions:
* Due to its immunostimulant effects, cat's claw should not be used with medications intended to suppress the immune system, such as cyclosporin or other medications prescribed following an organ transplant. (This theory has not been proven scientifically.) * Based upon in vivo rat studies, cat's claw may protect against gastrointestinal damage associated with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) such as ibuprofen. * Cat's claw may potentiate coumadin and blood-thinning drugs.
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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TerryK
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quote:This does not say immune modulating, it says immune stimulating.
hmmmm... this info and other info I've seen over the years says immune modulating. I don't know which is correct or if it depends on the person/disease or?
http://www.samento.com.ec/sciencelib/4sam/samvarrotyler.html "Several in-vitro studies have shown that POA-containing cat's claw products activate both T-lymphocytes and B-lymphocytes and also increase the phagocyte performance rate of the granulocytes and of cells in the reticul-endothelial system. At the same time, the proliferation of transformed and activated T-lymphoblasts and B-lymphoblasts is inhibited. These immunomodulating effects play an essential role in the clinical use of cat's claw. The herb is believed to accelerate wound healing and to enhance cartilage restoration in joint disorders. It is therefore recommended as an adjunct in the treatment of rheumatic and arthritic conditions."
Immune modulation (correcting immune dysfunction). Direct broad spectrum anti-microbial effect on spirochetes. Quinovic acid glycosides found in TOA-free cat's claw are similar to the quinilones widely used as antibiotics. Blocking the adverse neurotoxic effects on cells, enzymes, and hormones. "
I saw 2 studies at one time about the immune modulation effect of samento. If someone really wants to see them I'll see if I can find them again.
There are quite a few LLMD's who have used samento with success. Doesn't mean it is safe for everyone anymore than all abx are safe for everyone.
Terry
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Truthfinder
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I have to agree with Terry. This is nothing more than a rumor at this point.
One of the reasons I dislike claims made based on "in vitro" studies is that strange things happen when substances pass through the digestive system.
Strange things also happen when certain substances are introduced to the human bloodstream.
The research on Western Fence Lizard blood is a prime example.
Another reason is that the concentrations used "in vitro" may be substantially lower or higher than could ever be achieved in the bloodstream "in vivo". We have no clue about the concentration of Samento in these experiments.
I could come up with a few more reasons, but you get the idea. "In vitro" does not demonstrate a "real world scenario".
I swear, I think you can prove just about anything you want to if you set the experiment up properly.
So, let's wait and see how the dust settles on this before we go crazy. I'm sure we haven't heard the last of this.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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TerryK
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Thanks Cave, There is considerable controversy over whether CFIDS is an autoimmune disease or not. There are many other things on that page that I don't think are correct but many may be a matter of opinion.
I agree, conflicts of interest are a concern with just about any drug or supplement where a manufacturer has a proprietary product. That said, there are many articles on the samento.com site that have been written by M.D.'s and others who are in practice and treating lyme disease. Also, some townsend letter articles which I find to typically be a reputable source and some studies etc.. I'm sure there is also info that represents a conflict of interest.
Basically, like any supplement and many pharmaceuticals, it's up to each of us to decide if it's worth the risk. From what was written earlier in this thread, I thought the info that has been brought up about samento causing Bb to grow will not show up in the study. I really hope that whatever info is found is reported because we as consumers are putting our health at risk and we have a right to know if there are dangers. I will ask my LLND if she's heard anything about this when I see her in a few weeks and if she has, I'll report back with that info. Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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In Vitro and in Vivo can be as different as day and night when looking at the action and efficacy of a drug or herb.
I took Cat's Claw and Samento for 3 years along with a few other herbs to move from positive to negative on the WB's form IgeneX.
In Vivo worked fine for me. At present, I choose to put my faith in the herbal healers of the Amazon.
Blue Skies.........John
Posts: 134 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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MariaA
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One thing to keep in mind when looking at 'immune modulating' versus 'immune stimulant' is that conventional medical science doens't really use the terms 'immune modulating' very often. So you might see it described in some literature as 'purported to be an immune stimulant' or something like that- where conventional medical folks don't know what immune modulating is so they describe it as an immume system stimulant.
I dont think there are any conventional drugs that have an immunomodulatory effect- the effect of reining in some immune system actions that are in excess.
Theres a good example of what we mean by 'immune modulating' above.
Maria
...who's in vivo experience is that of feeling quite normal and near-perfectly-healthy on 16 cats' claw capsules a day (and the rest of the Buhner Protocol) after 6 years of Lyme hell and an unsuccessful antibiotic experience...
clairenotes
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posted
Terry -- I have had this belief that there is a kind of sequencing of remedies that needs to take place, which will be dependent on the relative state of health we are in, as well as the co-infections present, etc. Exactly how, well... that is still in process!! Your LLND's comments about Samento's contra-indications with babesia are interesting.
I agree that detoxing is important with almost any of our 'bug killing' treatments. I hadn't heard about the importance of building collegen in relation to taking Samento.
I wish we had a little more information on endotoxins. Bea had a thread on it a few months back and listed many chinese herbs. Was wondering if there are other more common herbs that would help. Maybe Rolipram or citrus per some of Marnie's recent topics.
Claire
Not a doctor either... just wading through an ocean of information and research.
[ 04. March 2007, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: clairenotes ]
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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hardynaka
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Me too, I got better with WHOLE cats claw (I'm on my month 16, if I counted well).
I am currently using it as part of my maintenance protocol, as I got practically symptomless.
I also took some Samento, but very little compared to cats claw. As far as I know, it doesn't kill Bb directly, but indirectly through the immune system. It raises CD 57 numbers, for example (if I remember Buhner's book well).
Even if this rumour comes out as true, I am not going to quit taking something that I feel helped me to get where I am!
Unless someone comes with an IN VIVO clear proof.
In vitro, all ABX said to kill borrelia kill borrelia !!! So what?
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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MariaA
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I think sforsgen posted that it raises his CD57 levels over a long period of time (he's one of the people here who's been ill for decades before treatment). I think he's not taking anythign else that raises CD57 if I recall right. Scott? did I get that right?
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
posted
When I read the initial post, all I could think of was TROLL.
It is RUMORS like this that keep people from being healed. And continue to be in the dark ages.
First off. Samento AND Cat's Claw are actually ONE AND THE SAME.
However some people who wanted to get rich quick, have "pirated" the name Samento to TRY to differentiate TOA Free Cat's Claw they have concocted from the natural whole herb.
So, because so many are not educated in herbs very well, even those of us "in the know" have conceeded to let them differentiate between the two, by calling them Samento and Cat's Claw, meaning two different animals. One natural and one unnatural.
I have taken natural Cat's Claw along with MANY other "natural" herbs for 15 months and have had wonderous "healings" from them. Always WHOLE herbs, except for Hu Zhang which is a 5:1 concentration.
It really IRKS me to read some of this garbage that people bring up about the GOOD tried and true healing medicines that have been actually working GOOD for centuries for MANY illnesses; including Lyme Disease.
THAT is WHY I PREFER to believe those with ACTUAL accurate knowledge of herbs and what they do for us, like Stephen Harrod Buhner; and other fine Master Herbalists.
Actually THIS thread is just a waste of mine and others time, which takes away from "good" education of HOW to "heal Lyme".
Vermont_Lymie
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I wouldn't shoot the messenger. The real question for me is why are we not doing this type of research in the United States?
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MariaA
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That is indeed the horrible travesty of this age- the separation of 'conventional' drugs from botanical ones, and the uneven distribution of interest in the two from the medical industry that keeps us from using some of the botanical medicines as 'conventional' treatments for common and not-so-common problems.
The more you learn about medical herbalism, usually backed by (German, Japanese, Chinese, British, everything but American) scientific research, the more you get angry about the lack of this research in the USA...
Maria
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
posted
Maria, You said it beautifully ! A lot of botanical meds have been used and studied throughout the world and have proven efficacy .
However , it is rare to find anyone in the medical "industry" who will not discredit the validity of anything that is an alternative to big Pharma . We are really being ripped off .
Frankly , I feel like conventional medicine's goal is to do nothing but make money . Often by setting exorbitant fees and offering a lot of therapies that are sometimes not useful .
I am always amazed that docs will not listen to any alternative therapy options, yet I know so many people who have been given toxic chemotherapy for cancer which does not work but simply adds to the misery of the prolonged death . It is senseless .
my two cents worth - It is nice to see that some one is looking into its value though I am skepitcal of the results- I have used it and it has helped me
an old post written by GiGi ( whom we miss) discussing samento and noni used by Dr K
posted 11 January, 2006 03:07 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The worst offenders causing problems in the eyes as well as in the teeth, gums, jaw, according to what Dr. K. sees in patients are Babesia and Bartonella.
Babesia, we all know, needs to be treated first. Dr. K. does works a lot with PC Noni and PC Samento. I give you here my notes -- I am always listening when he speaks.
Babesia and Bartonella
Use the seven slide test kit (ART) for Lyme Disease on the jaw. That is the most common thing that you find in the jaw that underly the major pathology. When teeth die, the main bug that is killing the teeth and affecting the eyes in different ways are Babesia and Bartonella. Those are the two bugs that do your teeth, give you the floaters, today you can see, tomorrow it's worse, etc.
The treatment for Bartonella is Frequency #1 and the treatment for Babesia is Frequency #2 in the KMT microcurrent device. They are designed to treat jaw and teeth and sinuses. Short of that, the treatment for Bartonella is the PC Samento (Biopure) and the treatment for Babesia is the PC Noni (Biopure).
Noni is 4-6 droppers full a day. Take a glass bottle - not plastic ---- (Dr. Klinghardt is convinved that it its better to starve yourself of fluids than to drink out of a plastic bottle. Completely reversed from what we believed in the past. It is better to starve yourself than to poison yourself. Make an effort to buy glass - not recycled glass. The trouble with recycled bottles - when they are recycled, they get washed with soap and they do one lousy rinse and what you get then is soap with more water in it).
Take water bottle with good water. Then you use the Matrix Electrolite, which is really an improvement over what we had so far. Matrix Electrolite is a phanatstic carrier agent to carry water and herbs into the cells where they need to be.
The dosage of the Matrix Electrolite (Biopure) -- you put a little bit in at a time; stir, then you taste. The moment you can detect the taste that is slightly salty, you have the right amount. The minimum amount needed will give the maximum effect. Because your need for electrolite changes as you are healing, your taste buds change and give you different information for the concentration and changes over time. Most the time in the beginning people need a lot of electrolytes. As they are filling up yourselves with water and electrolytes, the amount get less and less. And later on you need maybe a tablespoon in the bottle. It becomes very very cost effective.
Then you add the herb that you are taking into the bottle. For Babesia, which is his main concern with all the patients, the dose that you start is two droppers full of the Noni extract and weight. After two weeks, if we are not getting a die-off reaction, you can increase the dose gradually. Most people end up with 4 droppers full a day. It is very powerful at that level. For some bigger guys he goes up to 6 droppers full a day.
You go up in the dosis until the patient reaches the Yin state (ART).
The same for Bartonella. Bartonella responds to the PC Samento, just like Lyme Disease does, and by putting it in the bottle with the Matrix Electrolite, it becomes a different animal. Usually with Lyme Disease we start with one drop (not one dropper) a day. Do for a few days. If there is no reaction, go to two drops a day. Then fairly rapidly go up to the final dose until you come into the range of between two and three droppers full a day. Some people have had a severe Herxheimer reaction on one-half drop a day. 1/2 drop a day. How do you get 1/2 drop a day???????????? You put one drop in the bottle, but drink only half of it. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just be smart around that. People with severe Lyme Disease get severe reactions. Yet they get through it.
Tame the beast Babesia first. Start with the PC Noni, which is a much more forgiving intracellularly working substance, an extract and concentrate of Noni, and it does not just use the Noni fruit, it uses the bark of the tree and the root of the tree. So some of the non-renewable of the plant are in there. There is a company you can read up on it (Nutramedix) that manufactures this and they sell their own Noni, their own Samento. Biopure adds their microcurrent frequencies into the Noni and into the Samento, which makes it a much more powerful remedy. Similar price, but you get a lot more from Biopure because it has all the energies loaded into it.
By combining it with the Matrix Electrolites you get a lot more punch out of it than taking it like others are suggesting it. The trouble is - Noni and Samento should not be used in the same bottle; they are biting each other. Some herbs work very well together - these two do not. It is recommended that you add into the treatment Eyebright. A great herb to clear up the facial problems that come with Lyme Disease - jaw problems and eye problems, tinnitus; often there is this constriction on the forehead that people with Lyme Disease have. Ecchinecea (feels the best one is from Standard Process) really works for Lyme Disease - these would be two herbs you can add in. And the most important is to add the Mucuna powder. Mucuna powder gives you immediately that neurotransmitter lift.
Take care.
Posts: 259 | From California | Registered: Mar 2006
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clairenotes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10392
posted
Thanks for posting this information, Mag.
I have only read "A Look Beyond Anti-biotics" which does not provide so much detail. Have copied this information to a word file in case I decide to use these remedies later.
Claire Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
I was cured by PC-Noni!!!!
I had tried Riamet, salt/C, curcumin/ turmeric, neem, artemisinin low doses long term, artemisinin high doses pulsed every 2 weeks, NOTHING hit my babesia. They just changed my babesia symptoms and could kept me symptom free for maximum 2 weeks. Then symptoms returned, sometimes in revenge.
I didn't try abx because no doctor gave me here.
I took only few drops of PC-Noni for a few days/ weeks and all my babesia symptoms faded.
I didn't know PC-Noni was supposedly to kill babesia when I took it, so it couldn't have been placebo!!!
I just realized it could have been PC-Noni because that was the only real new thing I added to my herbs (besides chlorella). It did the job with less than a bottle, maybe not even half a single bottle. I herxed a lot with a few drops (I think it was 3 or 4 drops a DAY).
This was sometime last year from April until June. By July, I was symptom free from babesia.
I had all the babesia symptoms, air hunger and night sweats being my worst.
It was only then that I read this post of Gigi and re-read Dr. K's site. He recommends PC-Noni for babesia. It's said to act intracellular, helps babesia gets out and then it gets more easily killed.
I'm babesia symptom free until now, never treated babesia ever since.
What I never heard of, is of people being cured of babesia with artemisinin, no matter which protocol. Never heard so far.
I would try a bottle of the PC-Noni if I still had babesia, and not forgetting whole cats claw, and perhaps andrographis.
I was NOT on Samento back then, I was on whole cats claw plus all core protocol from Buhner. If Noni helped the babesia get out, even the andrographis could have hit it, as it seems to have antiprotozoal properties. Who knows?
Whole juice Noni never did anything to me before.
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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Annz i did not try the noni not sure where to buy it. I did try the samento and that has helped
I think my babesia has subsided. - I hear that the babesia cycles after 120 days so maybe I will look in to some PC Noni then. Now my challenge for the week is realizing - that i have Bartonella
hardy- good to hear that this worked for you - always nice to hear that people do get well
not another bacteria -
mags
Posts: 259 | From California | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
It can be overwhelming at times. Just when you think you've named your enemy and aimed your guns... then surprise(!) there is more to deal with. Temporary discouragement, but you will adjust and press on just like many others.
Selma's story really helps to keep trusting that there is a way through this complex puzzle!
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
PC-Noni, there's just one place to buy, Biopure in the US. In Europe, through the INK. It's a dr. K's product.
I just said in my last post I never saw anyone being cured of babesia with artemisinin solo, and yesterday someone posted her babesia and lyme story and said SHE WAS CURED with artemisinin low doses 40 days plus boneset, by Buhner's protocol.
Her name is Ellen, from Buhner's forum. She also got cured from her long term lyme only with 30 days abx + Buhner's herbs. Her whole story is there now.
I also wanted to add that I remember a post by Gigi saying many babesia sufferers get good results with salt/C. Not my case. Salt/C was fruitless on babesia for me and I remember reading many people on lymestrategies looking for help against babesiosis when I was still a member there.
Gigi said that there are babesia that react well with salt/C while other babesia react well with PC-Noni. I just read that recently, much after I was 'cured' from babesiosis.
The more I live my lyme story, the more I realize that what Gigi posted here was really valuable information.
At least for me, it almost always turned out to be right, even if I was skeptical for many things in the beginning (amalgams, metal intoxication, babesia cure, tapping, emotions being important, lymph drainage, etc).
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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MariaA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9128
posted
Boneset tea and red root tincture , PLUS the regular Buhner PRotocol herbs, is Buhner's strategy for bartonella symptoms. I think I have a mild case of bartonella (test negative, though, so could be wrong) and taking those things certainly made it all better quickly. I herxed on boneset though I think- those mild bart symptoms became stronger for a couple of days.
ways to take boneset: I think he says, and other herbalists agree, that there's a big difference between the hot tea (1 tsp in a cup of water, drink 4-6 oz a few times a day is his recommendation I think) and any other forms (pills, tincture) of boneset. It also makes you sweat and helps with moderate pains really well. Also a fantastic flu remedy.
ALso, the tea happens to taste like crap (mildly bitter). I diluted it with more hot water so that wasn't so bad, now I"m very used to it. I also used to add fruity-tasting herb tea to it (Celestial Seasonings type non-medicinal things) to make it less nasty.
Ruth Ruth, are you getting any noticable results with boneset tincture? Maria
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
I am staying up waaaaay to late trying to keep up with this forum and was startled to find someone interested in my progress. Thank you for asking.
I have a bottle of boneset tincture from eclectic, unopened on my shelf. So I guess I'm not doing anything ... yet.
I tend to order stuff in bunches and then try too many new things all at once, leading to confusion about what is causing which new response. And so in trying to stop doing that, the boneset is sitting there awaiting 'launch' sometime this week.
On other fronts, I think I've got the chlorella dialed in based on the advice to take 5 or so about 1/2 hour before meals. And adding Alpha Lipoic Acid 3x day seems to be helping in some way. Still on just resveratol 2x day.
I can't seem to decide about the red root tincture. It's just not what my body seems to 'want'. I'm making a tea with a tea bag of nettle leaf added in to make it more attractive. I know our friend JimBob is very strong on it, but I was having very positive response using the Burbur. (It seems more 'gentle' somehow.)
And someone recommended cantharis (homeopathic) for the bladder irritation. After a couple single 'pellets' the symptoms were better (plus the hand on the belly/telling things to calm down event). I am still disolving 3-4 pellets every day of the 6c because the root cause won't be going away until the infection is gone. So far, so good.
Probably TMI, but it was nice to discover someone was thinking of me. I'm not as discouraged right now and that's an improvement!
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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MariaA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9128
posted
Ruth,
Taking things one at a time seems like a good strategy to me- I also tend to add multiple treatments to my protocol and it makes it hard to tell what any changes are caused by. Good luck!
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
I'm sorry that I don't have the link close at hand, but I believe PC-Noni is the Noni extract from Nutramedix that BioPure has added "energy forms" to.
I remember reading that, but don't have the mental wherewithall to search on it right now.
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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caat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2321
posted
I think it might possibly be good for babesia. I never did see anything that pointed it to be good for lyme...
The whole cat's claw BTW is halucinagenic for some people. Like me I tryed it once and had a VERY interesting day. It has an anesthesic effect on the muscles- or at least it did for me. Made me very nauseous though...
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
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adamm
Unregistered
posted
So did this study ever come out? Was it BS and debunked as such?
quote:Originally posted by adamm: So did this study ever come out? Was it BS and debunked as such?
No, they never published anything. As I learned it was not a study but just research and as such the result may never be published.
Prov. Sievers will hold a lecture on 5 May 08 at the annual members meeting of the German Lyme Disease Association. I asked in the German forum that whoever will go there, ask him about it.
I hope someone will ask. If I'll get news I'll post them here.
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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mojo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9309
posted
I didn't realize there was controversy regarding Cat's Claw/Samento.
I can say this, though, since I started taking Nutramedix Samento about 7 or 8 weeks ago I've never felt better. I was in a "healing plateau" so we added Samento to my Biaxin/Amox protocol and I've seen a dramatic positive change.
I look forward to using more Nutramedix products when I wean off of ABX.
Posts: 1761 | From USA | Registered: May 2006
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I tryed it once and had a VERY interesting day. It has an anesthesic effect on the muscles- or at least it did for me. Made me very nauseous though...
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