posted
If anyone took this pls tell me how you initially responded. Did you tolerate it, did you herx and how, and the Grand question...did it help???? (With what symptoms).
I just took a 200mg pill and im a bit tingly and feel a lil on edge and spacey...but maybe its just me. PS...Can i take Xanax while on this?
I know...its alot of info...whatever you can input would be appreciated.
Thx
[ 08. March 2007, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: panicbegone ]
Posts: 160 | From california | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
reduce the dose...it sounds like alot...tingling means it is to much..why dont you stop and wait a week and try it again if you wish...but lower dose... eric
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
thx polar. I think i remember you had a rough time with this one.
my llmd actually asked me to do 100mg every day for a week....but my order came in at 200mg capsules so i just went for it cuz in 3 weeks my rx is going up to 300mg 3xday!
thx
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trueblue
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posted
hiya, I started on Artemisinin at 100mg at bedtime and in a few days 100mg on waking.
The first morning woke up feeling like something was sitting on my chest. Breathing was fine but my ribs felt crushed. 2nd morning with chills, 3rd in a sweat.
I was on it alone before adding Malarone and an ABX. Things intensified at 4-5 days(that's when the slide sliping vertigo thingy happened) and eventually leveled off.
I did tolerate it and eventually got used to it. I was nauseous and had increased symptoms cycling at about 9-12 days until I added the next med, which changed the cycle.
I was only on it a few months and am not sure if it helped or not because I wound up having meds pulled for high LFTs and it turned out my gallbladder needed removing.
I have just restarted Babs meds again and have not added it back yet.
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caat
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that doesn't sound too rough to me... but maybe that's just me.
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posted
gracias
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CaliforniaLyme
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posted
Sounds like nothing but good to me!!!
When I took ARtemisia (almost same) I didn't expect a reaction soon- so I went to a crowded place to meet friends- WHOA!!! ALL OF A SUDDEN within 30 minutes of taking it, my hands turned BRIGHT RED, my FACE flushed bright red, but the GREAT thing about this was... I still had at this point arthritis in my hands and fingers and a certain LACK of feeling other than PAIN in them.\All of a sudden m y hands FELT ALIVE again- the tingling- all through them, i n parts that had been numb- my hands then were numb and pained- and boy, I KNEW in that second that my remainig hand symptoms were BABESIA and that I WOULD GET THEM BACK! And I also got
within 5 minutes of this-
sharp stabbing pains in head top- which I still got back then- so I knew again it was Herxing- and burning spot below eye-
and DIZZY LIKE CRAZY I thought I wouold pass out-
and then VEYR SPACEY weird almost hallucinatory feeling-
IT WAS WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because I was so reactive- thank god@!@@
I left that place though, BARELY made it outside was swaying and hard to walk, sat in car for twenty minutes and drove home in patches, kept pulling over and stopping.
Went home, went HECK YES THANK YOU WORLD!!! I AM GOING TO CROCHET ONE DAY~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AT time I still had stiffness and pain in hands could not use them 100% normally and repetitive motion hurt-
anyway- I went on to crochet
hundreds of hats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HUNDREDS!!!
including lots for this sad place where I did volunteer work for CPS kids- and got to make this little boy a hat in his favorite colors- and he was recovering from a parentally induced fractured skull- best hat I ever made- and what a smile from him- and I always hope it kept his poor adorable little head safe- but that's not a Lyme issue-
ANYWAY-
I think unless oyu kill yourself or others I HOPE you have a severe reaction!!!!!!! People who are afraid of Herxing don't tend to do as well!! At least not those I know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Herxing is great!!!! It means you can get better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
my "herxing and/or reaction: always involves shortness of breath. thats scary.
And....i usually itch with everything i try which i dont believe is a herx. Leads me to think this is an allergic reaction. Am i wrong?
Posts: 160 | From california | Registered: Dec 2006
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clairenotes
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posted
I used to have the itching, too. Happens with most of my bug-killing remedies, especially bad in the beginning. Not an allergic reaction for me. But only speaking for me, of course.
But with arteminisin, I did not have a good experience. Was too intense for me... lost short-term memory for awhile. I am okay with some intense herx reactions, but that one crossed the line.
I feel there are a lot of variables involved in whether someone does well with arteminisin (or anything else for that matter). Many here have done well. But a few have not.
Claire
[ 09. March 2007, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: clairenotes ]
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
panic b gone please dont listen to advice about herxing were you think you are going to die...you can have a neuro toxic reaction to art..it affects balance and breathing and blood pressure..so go slow..no need to jump into a stupid idea that the more you herx the better you will be..you are playing with a very very potent drug..by the way there is another form of art that does not have the side effect of neuro toxicity... eric
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trueblue
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My non-medical advice... start low and go slow. Yes, Artemisinin felt very powerful to me and still I was able to tolerate it in low doses.
I think in longer and deeply intrenched infections a tiny bit might be a lot. I have had Babs for 25+ years when I finally took something for it. I was able to handle 200mg/day but am sure I couldn't have gone higher at this point in treatment.
good luck!
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MariaA
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Buhner says, over and over again, (previous books, and in his PLanet Thrive advice column) that artimisinin is harder on your system than artimisia herb itself . I think that's the option Polar Blast is referring to.
In a previous book, The Lost Language of Plants, Buhner makes the point that Artemisia, the whole herb, contains some constituents whose ONLY known function is to reduce the side effects of the active ingredient in artimisinin . Artimisinin is a synthetic derivative of artimisia the herb, and is missing these anti-side-effects components of the herb.
My boyfriend, who does not have Lyme, is currently taking artimisinin for malaria (he's working in Africa this month and got a mild case of malaria). He described the side effects of the drug as being similar to LSD (which he's familiar with!), and he's a very healthy person to begin with whose malaria wasn't even all that bad= this is just a side effect of the drug. Does not sound fun, and it's probably not just a herx for many of you.
Buhner seems to recommend cryptolepsis instead now, though it's something that needs to be taken for short periods of time and you have to be careful with dosage.
here's a column where he says suggests cryptolepsis. I'd like to add that he says a few things aobut cryptolepsis in the book Healing Lyme and I'd personally suggest reading the book before just trying the herb: http://snipurl.com/1cl8g
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
quote:Originally posted by panicbegone: my "herxing and/or reaction: always involves shortness of breath. thats scary.
Babesia involves air hunger and shortness of breath....so a herx would likely involve the same symptoms.
I agree....start slowly and work your way up.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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clairenotes
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posted
Don't want to minimize anyone's positive experience with arteminisin. Only another person with lyme disease could appreciate the simple act of being able to crochet once again... and where that talent, or any of our talents, once healthy again, might lead.
But there are some symptoms we may not want to exacerbate. Chills, headaches and pains, maybe. Shortness of breath, maybe not. And if there is more than one way to 'skin a cat' so to speak...
Going slow and paying attention along the way is very wise...
Claire
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CaliforniaLyme
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I agree with not exacerbating shortness of breath but that wasn't in the original post to which I was responding!!!
We all have our own paths.
Mine has been a good one and I choose it because it is what I saw others do who got well or near well!!!
It has worked for me so I share it*)!!! I am glad others things have worked for other people. I am glad those things are shared as well.
Happy Saturday morning everybody*)!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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clairenotes
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I was very touched by your story which is why I mentioned it, CAlyme. Don't stop expressing it whenever this topic comes up. I know arteminisin has been helpful.
Just wanted to point out a thought that occurred to me as the thread evolved that yes... healing reactions (exxacerbation of symptoms) are part of the process of getting well. But when they involve breathing or loss of memory or something else fairly serious, maybe it is not that okay --especially if there are other alternatives.
This is just food for thought on this thread.
Claire
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Vermont_Lymie
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quote:Originally posted by MariaA: Artimisinin is a synthetic derivative of artimisia the herb, and is missing these anti-side-effects components of the herb.
My boyfriend, who does not have Lyme, is currently taking artimisinin for malaria (he's working in Africa this month and got a mild case of malaria).
He described the side effects of the drug as being similar to LSD (which he's familiar with!), and he's a very healthy person to begin with whose malaria wasn't even all that bad= this is just a side effect of the drug. Does not sound fun, and it's probably not just a herx for many of you.
Maria, thank you for this description of your boyfriends artemisin reaction.
I also had an incredible reaction the first time I took artemisin. I took a small dose before going to sleep, about 80mg first, as I had read about Polar Blast's ordeal and wanted to be cautious.
That first dose of artemisin was like a drug experience. As I lay in bed, snippets and scenes from my entire life flashed through my brain. I am in my mid-40s, so there is alot of life to go through!
I felt great, and very clear, but it was a bit scary. Scenes from my childhood, teenage years, etc., came into my thoughts as images and memories very quickly, and were replaced by others. It seemed really that my life was flashing before my eyes, and I wondered (since the cliche is that happens to people before they die), if I was going to die. Which was scary, except that I felt great and wide awake. Finally, I went to sleep and woke up feeling good.
This was definitely a rx to artemisin. I took it again recently, 100mg, and just had my normal herx -- a feeling of increased spaceyness and inability to concentrate.
It was such an odd reaction I am glad to read about your boyfriends experience too!
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quote:Originally posted by Vermont_Lymie: That first dose of artemisin was like a drug experience. As I lay in bed, snippets and scenes from my entire life flashed through my brain.
Darn! I missed all the "good stuff"!! Nothing unusual happened to me while on ART, but I had already taken NUMEROUS rounds of clindamycin/quinine.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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MariaA
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posted
When The Boyfriend told me this story, I thought about how people who have never experimented with drugs as youths would probably think they're 'losing it' completely.
Artimisia (I think) is an ingredient in absynthe, a mildly psychodelic alcoholic drink from Europe, so the 'life scenes flashing before your eyes' thing totally sounds like a normal effect to expect (I've never experienced either absynthe or artimisia/artimisinin by the way).
But if you didn't know that, I imagine that it may make you feel like you're losing your mind. Babesia itself also makes people feel that way supposedly so I can only imagine what the combination of herxing and artimisinin would feel like.
But, there are alternatives! Buhner makes the point that artimisia is just as effective, and says some good things about cryptolepsis. He also says he's concerned about people taking artimisinin long-term (and I think gives similar cautions about cryptolepsis). Here's the Planet Thrive column in which he talks about the concerns (also several columns in the past including December when Polar Blast was having his issues and wrote to Buhner): http://snipurl.com/1cl8g
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
posted
I experimented with too many drugs in my youth, and never had the an experience like Art., It made me sick and delusional in a non-fun kind of way.
-------------------- Never walk through a cornfield backwards.
posted
I remember i was taking 1000mg of artimisinin in the summer (daily). But I worked my way up slowly, i started at 100mg a day initially.
Also spacing is important. I think I was doing 5 days on 1 week off. At higher doses..
Posts: 170 | From Vancouver | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by polar blast: reduce the dose...it sounds like alot...tingling means it is to much..why dont you stop and wait a week and try it again if you wish...but lower dose... eric
I agree. My doc (LLMD) had me start with 500mg raw artimesia anua, twice a day, than increase to 1g twice a day. You are taking the extract, which I believe is 20 times more powerful ( so you might want to start with at most half of what you are taking). I was taking an atovaquone combi, too ('malarone'), as well as garlic, which I am sure was a very important element. DaveS
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quote:Originally posted by MariaA: When The Boyfriend told me this story, I thought about how people who have never experimented with drugs as youths would probably think they're 'losing it' completely.
Artimisia (I think) is an ingredient in absynthe, a mildly psychodelic alcoholic drink from Europe, so the 'life scenes flashing before your eyes' thing totally sounds like a normal effect to expect (I've never experienced either absynthe or artimisia/artimisinin by the way).
No-- the herb from which absynth is derived, Artimesia absinthia, is a different species- has different "alkaloids" from those in artimesia anua! And artimesia absinthia is probably not nearly as good for fighting malaria or babesia. (in case anyone's getting any ideas..) Actually, artimesia absinthia may have other toxic elements too; for psychedelic effects, I'd stick with cannibis sativa) (though the usual method of ingesting that is hard on the lungs...(hence, moderation....)) (This is about the priciest herb there is; almost as much as some of the more expensive antibiotics. You can't get it in most pharmacies, but it's readily available almost everywhere. In CA, though, you might need a prescription....) DaveS
[ 12. March 2007, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: HaplyCarlessdave ]
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posted
i cant see why anyone would want to start on the concentrate.Why not get the actual herb,in its actual form, and work your way up from there.Nothing can be concentrated,and be consistant in my opionion.
Posts: 510 | From NEVERLAND.USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 8man12: i cant see why anyone would want to start on the concentrate....
I think you are right. I had the feeling that the raw herb may actually be MORE effective, when I was on it as part of the treatment for babesia. Maybe there is something in it that is lost when they estract the artimisinin.
Thus, I alternated, and somestimes took a capsule each of 100mg artimisinin and 500mg raw artimesia.
Expense was not a factor; both, artimesia and artiminin are more than an order of magnitude less expensive than atovaquone. (as well as an order of magnitude less than cannibis sativa (...maybe since there are no marked psychotic effects...) )
posted
By the way, I'm convinced that artimesia was the key to my getting over lyme. Babesia was more serious for me than for most people, though-- I lost my spleen in a serious injury when I was 29. It turns out the spleen is very important for fighting babesia. DS
Posts: 4567 | From ithaca, NY, usa | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
I just bought what my llmd told me to get ..the artemisinin. Im heavy headed today....swaying a bit (but to be fair this is normal for me). I just dont get how we are suppose to distinguish a good herx from bad reactions to the stuff we take. Ive realized that treating lyme is risky.
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caat
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posted
I'm starting on my second round of art and it's nuerotoxic effects are very real for some people including me.
Me, I'll stick with it until I think it's going too far- for me that's going a bit past facial twitching. I'll stick with it as long as I can without doing permanant brain damage. Last time I got to 7 1/2 weeks and had to stop- was starting to get a little manic and had difficulty talking without slurring my words. I'm not manic so feeling manic is a bad thing for me.
I'm more sensitive to it than many people I think. Zhang's recommended maximum time on artemisinin is 8 weeks. Break and then LATER repeat if necessary.
I think it's probley more effective than mepron except it has a short half life (1 to 3 hours). But if someone is going too far on it or is too sensitive to it then it can be a VERY bad thing...
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
caat that is a bad side effect of art ..be careful...dont over due it...I am having really bad problems...it effected my brain stem...how are you feeling now... eric
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
i just want to hear someone say....Art saved me. Or this antibiotic saved me. If Art did help anyone HOW long did it take to notice improvement? And is Art for lyme too or just Babs
Posts: 160 | From california | Registered: Dec 2006
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MariaA
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posted
Several people HAVE said that artimisinin saved them, I can't remember which thread and which forum (it's being discussed at one of the California lyme yahoogroups I"m on right now).
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
caat
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posted
Eric,
Thank you VERY much for your concern. I'm so sorry it effected your brain stem. I hope that clears up- it very well could clear up!
I took 3 weeks off before starting again. The mania went away in about a day and a half. Head cleared in about a week. Doesn't seem like any permenant damage.
Starting now after 3 weeks break- first 2 days were awful- bell's palsey feeling etc. Today is much better.
It could have to do with the fact the first day or 2 I took 400mg instead of 300mg. I was so foggy I can't remember how many days I did that. Not so foggy now but will probley quit before 7 1/2 weeks. I might last 4 to 6 weeks and will quit on the first day of mania. Or if I feel it coming. Or if something really weird happens.
I'm sweating a lot again and I don't think that's a side effect of the artemisinin. So I think I want to stay on it as long as practical. I'm more afraid of what babesia will do to me than art at this point.
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Nothing unusual happened to me while on ART, but I had already taken NUMEROUS rounds of clindamycin/quinine.
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