posted
To my suprise drinking 3 glasses of tonic water caused as much of a Babesia herx as mepron and more than art did for me. I had flushing, fever, tingling in my arms, weakness and just plain sick. I haven't been this sick in a year. It is a herx because I stopped the tonic water and it is going away.
I'm so excited I'm going to drink it every day now.
Posts: 293 | From healdsburg, ca , sonoma | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Groovy2 recently suggested this also . I think he drank it with his babs meds .
Hardykna ( selma) posted she got over babs while taking PC noni juice , from a doc's protocol . That sounds really hard to fathom , but I will never argue with someone else's progress .
posted
I'm shocked. I have WA-1 Babs for sure and almost nothing has worked well. I will keep an update on how long the tonic water works.
Posts: 293 | From healdsburg, ca , sonoma | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Tonic water has quinine in it so it must be related to that. Very interesting.
Posts: 21 | From Ireland | Registered: Oct 2006
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bpeck
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Member # 3235
posted
Tonic water only has less than 25 mg of quinine in a bottle. The theraputic dose of Quinine for Malaria is like 250 mg a couiple times per day.
SO I doubt you experienced a babesia die off from tonic water.
It sure tastes good though. Barb
Posts: 1875 | From VT | Registered: Oct 2002
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5dana8
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posted
Hi Surg
Glad to hear it's helping!
I know tonic water has helped some people but for me it totally trashed my stomach & made me very naseated.
be careful.
I hope you have contined sucess with it & keep feeling better & better. Just wanted you to be aware of some possible side effects from this.
Blessings Dana
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
VERY possible- this is WHY tonic water exists- as a TONIC!!! People who have had malaria used to drink it every day to keep it at bay- I have had malaria myself and lived in INdia and this is why tonic water was a requirement for the British there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
btw if my cats (we have 6!) get lethargy, lose weight and began looking haggard I treat them with tonic water (3 droppersful) for 10 days adn they perk up!!! We live at the edge of wilderness and they catch rats and eat them- which can infect them with Babs-
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
surg, can you tell me which brand you got for the tonic water?
I googled and just like bpack mentioned, a lot of tonic water on market doesn't contain as much qunine as before when it first got its name "tonic"...
Posts: 196 | From atlanta/norcross, georgia | Registered: Feb 2007
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Vermont_Lymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9780
posted
I had a vodka & tonic last night in the hopes it would help
(a rare indulgence, I only drink a little tiny bit of alcohol once per month now at the most) --
and it did! I felt great & happy
In all seriousness, not recommended for others, but I am sticking with my one drink/month indulgence, and interested in this thread on tonic water & quinine....
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
If anyone gets drug screened for work you should know that quinine can trigger a false positive for OPIATES!!!! *************************
1: Addict Behav. 1989;14(2):213-5. Links
False positive urine drug screens from quinine in tonic water.
Swift RM, Griffiths W, Cammera P. Brown University Program in Medicine, Providence, Rhode Island.
Urine surveillance of patients is a universal procedure in drug treatment programs for monitoring frequency and type of illicit drug use. The method is also being increasingly utilized by employers to screen employees for drug use.
The presence of a prescribed substance in a subject's urine is considered objective evidence of illicit drug use, and is used to confront subjects. However, studies have demonstrated that urine surveillance is not infallible.
The presence of inaccuracy in urine surveillance has definite negative consequences of both individuals and the testers.
In this paper, we report that a positive urine test for quinine, which may be evidence of illicit drug use, results from the consumption of the amount of tonic water present in a mixed drink.
The implications of this finding are discussed.
PMID: 2728958
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I concur that Tonic really doesn't have enough quinine to have primarily therapeutic properties, but it does taste good! I buy the Whole Foods brand as it uses actual sugar instead of high fructose corn syrup, like most do.
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
I tried other brands before and nothing happened then on the Safeway brand-BAM. I know my own body and I know that I had a Babesia herx.
I know about the 25mg vs. the 500mg theory so that is why I am wondering how long it will last. I am going to do an experiment with the tonic water and see what happens and let you know. I am sure that it is not a cure but anything that helps is a blessing in my books.
Posts: 293 | From healdsburg, ca , sonoma | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Surg, You are not alone in feeling the tonic water caused a babs herx . Others here have reported the same . And you are right , you do know yor own body .
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
I believe it- I found this interesting- tonic water has been used for leg cramps- for tx- and with using it for that has come this notation- which sounds like major Herxing to me!!!! But at any rate evidence that a little bit of quinine can have QUITE an effect on people!!!!
************************************************
1: Psychol Rep. 2003 Dec;93(3 Pt 2):1022-4. Links
Risks of the consumption of beverages containing quinine.
Brasic JR. Division of Nuclear Medicine, The Russell H. Morgan Department of Radiology and Radiological Science, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21287-0807, USA. [email protected]
Although the United States Food and Drug Administration banned its use for nocturnal leg cramps due to lack of safety and efficacy, quinine is widely available in beverages including tonic water and bitter lemon.
Numerous anecdotal reports suggest that products containing quinine may produce
neurological complications,
including
confusion,
altered mental status,
seizures, and
coma,
particularly in older women.
Psychologists need to inquire about consumption of quinine-containing beverages as part of an evaluation process.
PMID: 14765563
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Numerous anecdotal reports suggest that products containing quinine may produce neurological complications, including: confusion, altered mental status, seizures, and coma...
Sounds like fun, sign me up!
Seriously, after reading a lot more posts about the Babs symptoms, I am almost ready to admit that the LLMD I talked with was right. The rashes that have tormented me since 2005 are most likely from a Babs co-infection. So I am reading this with a lot of personal interest.
I've mentioned it before, but the one herbal remedy that I really seemed to actually "crave" has been the Quina. The flyer from Bionatus Laboratories says:
quote:Quina has been used for centuries by native South Americans to treat a number of illnesses including malaria, cancer, fever, dysentery, typhoid, pneumonia, etc. It was one of the first South American medicinal plants to become known outside of the Americas. It was first used in Europe in the mid- 1600's and recognized by the British Pharmacopoeia in 1677. Quinine, one of the four alkaloids in Quina known to have antimalarial properties, has been used to produce medicines to treat malaria for nearly 200 years.
I'm not taking it right now because I was having so much trouble figuring out what was making me feel so weird a couple of weeks ago. If I can have another 4-5 good days on my current setup, then maybe I'll feel ready to give that a try again.
Is there anyone with experience with Quina?
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
You keep comparing the amount of quinine needed to treat Malaria but Babesia is not exactly Malaria.
I am doing an experiment and I am going to drink one can of tonic water(12 fl oz) over 24 hours and then add an extra can a day until I figure out how much is needed to cause a herx.
Posts: 293 | From healdsburg, ca , sonoma | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jill E.
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Member # 9121
posted
When I used to see a Lyme naturopath, she told me to drink tonic water to at least keep a little quinine in my body until my LLMD and I decided it was time to treat Babesia (I'm sensitive, can only treat one or two things at a time).
The only downside with the tonic water is you either have to choose sweetened with sugar or with artificial sweetener - not exactly a great choice either way.
Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
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CaliforniaLyme
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Member # 7136
posted
Surg, I know!!! But I have had both*)!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
It's not just the sugar or artificial sweeteners that are bad for you; it's the carbonation, and carbonated drinks leach calcium out of your bones and increase acidity.
You would be way better off getting an Rx for quinine and taking an equivalent dose in tablet form as you are getting from the water. Something else to consider is that you are allowing your babs to build up resistance to quinine by taking it in such a small dose.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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mojo
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posted
-it's the carbonation, and carbonated drinks leach calcium out of your bones and increase acidity.-
Yes - and the sugar and/or artificial sweetner will add to the acidity.
Posts: 1761 | From USA | Registered: May 2006
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groovy2
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6304
posted
Hi All
Tosho --Nice find on the Sweeps--
I drink 1 to 3 liters of Diet Tonic water aday- along with Other Babs meds--
Dont use TW by its self-- Must be taken with other Babs meds-- (resistance problems)
other Babs meds-- Mepron- Bactrim -Artemisinin-
I drink 1 to 3 liters aday of Diet TW-- Storebrand so I dont have a clue the amount of Quinine in each liter--
I have also taken Quinine Pills-- 325mg - 2X aday-- 2 months--
I found the TW to be as effetive as the quinine pills and maybe More effective--
TW dose not have the Bad side effects that the pills can cause--Hearing damage--
Babs Has to be Attacked from Every Way you can - for best results--
One ABX only is not effective --
I open the TW and let it sit awhile to let co2 evaporate out-- Dont know if it makes much differance tho--
I have been drinking TW for Over one year now- Deffinatly Helped me--
I like lemonade but I cant stand the taste of TW-- AAKKuakuu --
I have drank well over 400 liters of it before I quit keeping track-
TW is perty cheap--50 cents liter --
TW makes me Herx Also-- Babs and Lyme herx feel different--
Babs herx is usually much worse tho --
With 3 yrs of Good treatment I am feeling perty good most of the time--
I do herx on 28 day cycle tho-- herxes are lessining in intestity alot as time goes on--
From My experance it is Important to NOT pulse Babs Meds-
Everytime I pulsed Babs meds I lost proress -- EveryTime--Ouch---
Hope this helps--Jay--
Posts: 2999 | From Austin tx USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Thanks for the thoughts Jay. Especially about NOT pulsing the Babesia remedies.
I have been having some symptoms that could be this co-infection and have added in the Noni to see if it helps.
Since starting I have been having big temp swings, even mild sweats/chills. Some heart palps. And then the traces of blood showing up in the urine tests.
I think the other herbs are bringing my immune function up enough to actually have symptoms. Just a theory.
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
So, far one can of tonic water causes suppresion of symptoms most of the day with some facial flushings and fever.
On two cans of tonic water there is a big suppresion on symptoms with alot less fatigue and brain fog but not enough to get a big herx like on half a big bottle. On two cans it really does feel like I'm on medication.
Because of the sugar I will stay on one or two cans and then I will start to add in babs meds of zith, tindamax, and maybe art and see how that reacts with the tonic water against the babs.
Posts: 293 | From healdsburg, ca , sonoma | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
jay, in all your TW time... do you feel that lose some efect? do you need more quantity? you feel the same efect without co2?
Posts: 108 | From spain eur | Registered: Apr 2005
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CaliforniaLyme
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Member # 7136
posted
SURG- that would make sense- because malaria sequesters in the liver and quinine is so effective with it!!! (I know, they are different, but similar and I have had both so I htink about both)!!! I am very glad to hear you are doing so well and Ibelieve it can mae a huge difference for people!! I have heard of an LLMD back East who has his patients drink tonic water for 2 weeks routinely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Best wishes, Sarah in CA
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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groovy2
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Member # 6304
posted
Hi All
Antsettler -- it seems like the TW effect has stayed perty constant--
I do herx less now --I think because I have killed off lots of Babs -
Letting the Co2 escape for awhile maybe a good thing- not sure tho --
I do think the Quinine may evaporate if left open for long periods of time --
I have noticed difference in taste after being left open for a day or so--
I dont like carbonated drinks -- thats why I vent Co2
Even tho the amount of Quinine in TW is thought to be small the Good effects are Very Large --
One thing that has Not changed is that the bottle of TW I just drank tastes just as bad as the first one --Jay--
Posts: 2999 | From Austin tx USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
There is a new tonic water that has just recently come out called Q Tonic. The inventor didn't like the syrupy sweet Schweppes tonic waters so he came up with his own. His tonic water is sweeted with agave nectar and he uses a pharmaceutical grade of quinine.
My husband is supposed to start Mepron soon. I'll be asking the LLMD about using tonic water in addition or after we're done with Mepron.
Posts: 984 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2006
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Hand-picked quinine from the Peruvian Andes Organic agave as the sweetener 80% fewer calories than regular tonic water All natural ingredients No high fructose corn syrup 85% lower glycemic rating than other tonic waters
Posts: 984 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
So interesting....I craved Tonic Water as a kid...drank it a lot. Looking back over symptoms I am starting to suspect I have had TBIs a long time...so now I wonder if it was my innate intelligence telling me I needed the Quinine or I just loved the taste...
I bet possibly the carbonation, despite it's detrimental health benefits, may have some effect on how the quinine is delivered...pretty interesting...
-------------------- �Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right.� - Ezre Taft Benson Posts: 655 | From NC, Exit 88 on the Deer SuperHighway | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
for me the meds with co2, as paracetamole effervescent, is more efective; whould be the trick?
but reading to jay is posible that be the continous dosis drinking all the day, not only the absortion with co2; bab can be fast, whould need a continous atack, drink and drink;
about this i made a lot better when i took quinine 300 x 6/day than 600 x 3/day (althoug the side efects was the same)
Posts: 108 | From spain eur | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Interesting. I start going downhill if I don't drink TW for a couple of days. But nothing else has made me feel this energetic so, who cares, I'm going to keep drinking it no matter what. I worry about the CO2 and the sugar content but compared to the benefits I'll keep taking things for yeast and drink the sugar. I do try to keep a steady supply in my system and I do feel immediate relief when I drink it. My energy is up, my hormones are working better, and my breathing has really improved.
Posts: 293 | From healdsburg, ca , sonoma | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I think that will be the benefit of this Q Tonic. Less sugar and no artificial ingredients. I don't know if this company sells only wholesale. If so, we can put a group together: Babesia, Unlimited.(untreated and misunderstood)
Posts: 984 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2006
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