caat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2321
posted
OK... anyone have nuerological problems witrh artemisinin while on babs therapy? I've been on mepron/zith for about 3 months. I have another 2 1/2 months worth of mepron.
I added artemisinin for 7 1/2 weeks, had to take a break as the artemisinin's neuro-toxins were building up. Just started back on it.
Now... I don't MIND a little hell. I can deal with it. But I'm wondering if anyone has thought about if and how and when the toxins from artemisinin can cause permenant nuero damage. WHERE IS THE EDGE?
I don't think this is a herx per se. I think it's the artemisinin. I WANT the artemisinin as it seems to work better than the mepron (except for the half life). But how much of this do I want? Right now is OK. Loopy and headaches are OK. But my face feels like it's thinking about bell's palsy. What's next? It'll probley start twitching somewhere very occasionally as soon as next week. Then what's next??
Anyone know a nuerologist who might give free advice or can anyone give good guesses or what they personally measure this sort of stuff with for themselves?
I think I really really need the art. I just went through major sweating and some chills and heart stuff again.
Any new alternatives?
Would switching to tinnidazole at some point increase the potential for damage or would it be a different pathway and avoid damage? I mean... what are the probabilities? No one would know for sure. What's your best guess? Pretend it's you so you're not actually giving me advice OK?
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
Buhner recommends only 30-40 days on artemisinin, with Red Root to mop up the toxins.
Also, at Planet Thrive, he recommends some other herb now as better than artemisinin.
It's not a long-term treatment, from what he wrote.
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
caat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2321
posted
Thanks Cass!!
what is red root?
I'll look up "planet thrive" and Buhner.
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
caat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2321
posted
OK. Looks like Cryptolepis sanguinolenta has some sort of quinoline or quinine relative chemical.
caat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2321
posted
hmmm... No offence Cass, but Buhner is having patients take herbs which have steriodal anti-inflamitory properties and hypercoagulation properties and he seems to think lyme cysts are human tissue cysts rather than life phases of bacteria...
err... Not for me!!
But I'll keep trying to find more info on red root once I find the latin name.
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
I doubt if it is doing any actual damage. It is more likely just a herx as the Mep and other anti-Babs meds gain momentum. The kind of Sx's that you are reporting are not uncommon during Babs Tx.
Art is a very safe Herb. Maybe you could be having some problems if you were taking high doses and pulsing it so that you were getting it's full effect, but I doubt that you are taking that much, and taking it continuously cuts down it's potency by over 50%.
How much of it are you taking? I have been using it for over 2 years, and any weird effects that have happened were only temporary. You could possibly be having a toxin back up problem if you aren't doing saunas and exercising regularly and so on.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by caat:
But I'll keep trying to find more info on red root once I find the latin name.
Ceanothus americanus?
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
I'm pretty sure you aren't suppose to take it non-stop. My LLMD has me take it 3 weeks on, 1 week off.
Posts: 561 | From eastcoast | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm pretty sure you aren't suppose to take it non-stop. My LLMD has me take it 3 weeks on, 1 week off.
Posts: 561 | From eastcoast | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
i am on my 7th Art day. Weird, yesterday i was having this big twitchy feeling in my left cheek. i went to the mirror to see if there was drooping in my face cause i thought of bells palsy too! But...nope. I get the headache too.
I cant tell much yet...im curious how long it takes to notice a difference with Art. I have bad neuro problems (balance, swaying feeling, head pressure, tremor, weakness) already prior to the Art....this is the one area I really need to see a change in! I will be adding Zith in about a week.
Posts: 160 | From california | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
caat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2321
posted
I took 3 weeks off before starting again. I'll stop when it gets weird. What's really weird is day 1 and 2 were bad. Today is much better- no bells palsey feeling. Only a mild sweat last night.
panicbegone, it took me a lot longer before I had that bell's palsey feeling. Looks like you might be more sensitive than me, unless you have that feeling without art. I stopped when I started feeling VERY weird and wasn't making much sense at times. Maybe you should stop or break before that. Mepron is easier if you can get it.
I think oil and fats increase artemisinin absorbtion.
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
tabbytamer
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3159
posted
caat,
I couldn't handle the initial dose. Too severe of headache/nausea/dizziness. Cut the dose in half and could handle that.
After about 2 weeks, those symptoms settled down. Now I've been on it about six months with my Mep & Zith without any obvious neuro side effects.
But you should always listen to what your body is telling you. Not how it effects others. I know you know that. Just wanted to emphasize that for any new members.
FYI, I had a lot of facial neuro stuff after stopping my Mino/Biaxin/Plaq. Would have episodes where my face would tingle/burn right before my jaw would spasm shut.
(This was before my treating for Babs.)
That cleared up somewhere along the way. Seems like it might be thinking about coming back once in a while, but hasn't.
caat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2321
posted
yes, bell's is a lyme thing AFAIK.
But... I think the nerve is probley permenantly damaged from the lyme. It's the weak point and anything with a nuerotoxin effects it. Flagyl and tinidazole effect it that way too. If I drank enough alcohol that would probley effect it too.
Funny- never had bell's palsey. Yes, it just feels like it'd happen if things went to far.
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
tabbytamer
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3159
posted
I never had bells palsey either. But when that stuff was happening to my face, I wondered if that was what it was leading to.
It was creepy! I couldn't tell anyone what was happening because I couldn't open my mouth to talk.
My eye doc thinks I have a type of palsey with my eye lids during the night where they don't close all the way. Wonder if that is Lyme related.
posted
Not sure if it was the Art., but something kept putting me in ER... I didn't know where I was at, and who I was at times. The doctor kept telling me it was herxes. I can't afford treatment if it requires ER/hospitalization every 2 weeks(or death).
After a month and half or so of not taking anything, I feel much better. Now have to take things slow and figure the culprit.
-------------------- Never walk through a cornfield backwards.
caat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2321
posted
thanks everyone !!
>>It was creepy! I couldn't tell anyone what was happening because I couldn't open my mouth to talk
ohhh... brrrrr!! that WOULD be creepy!
I had the facial twitchyness last night. I skipped the art today. I needed to use a circular saw... I kept double checking where the saw and my hand was... My left face is a bit numb today. I guess I won't be able to do another 7 1/2 weeks without a break.
Kendrick, what happened?
I couldn't tolerate artemisinin AT ALL untill I did mepron for ?? maybe 5 days or a week. Had bad bad heart palpitaions- I mean scarey ones, with just 14mg of art. I tryed it twice with the same results. I think artemisinin is stronger than mepron, just art has a half life of 1 - 3 hours and mepron a couple or few days.
The first round of art after taking mepron it was hard the first week with my heart then bad nuerologically for the last week and a half. In between was a little weird but not too bad.
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
I stayed on ARtemisia without stopping for a year!!! Mepron & zithro same time!!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
YES it can cause permanent neurological danger to the brainstem/ Will post on other thread-
You would notice problems with
* hearing * balance (vertigo like)
that would never go away.
(Which is interesting because one of my only "damage" things is a slight hearing loss and I was on Art for a year or so-)
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
My husband, who is doing the Buhner herbal protocol with me, got some neurologic symptoms within 10 days on Artemisinin. I took it to less frequent doses, then off completely within 24 hours. This was an out-of-balance feeling. It went away completely.
At Planet Thrive, Buhner also told someone who was getting the out-of-balance feeling (along with other bad reactions) to quit Artemisinin as well. This is where he recommended the other herb, which has been under discussion on this thread.
Thanks so much for everyone posting on this forum, or I might have continued to mistake it for a Herx!
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
ByronSBell 2007
Unregistered
posted
What is that other herb he is suggesting? Does it have side effects? Any articles?
IP: Logged |
Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
This is the herb Buhner is now supporting for Babesia in place of Artemisinin. This is copied from an earlier post on this thread.
Love,
Cass A
OK. Looks like Cryptolepis sanguinolenta has some sort of quinoline or quinine relative chemical.
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic