Topic: President of ILADS comment on Buhner's book
hardynaka
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Here's the comment from Horowitz on Healing Lyme:
"The first 75 pages are as a good a review of the scientific literature as I've seen. . . I was impressed by [Buhner's] grasp of the literature. He really did his homework." - Richard Horowitz, President ILADS.
posted
Dr. H thinks very highly of holistic medicine and has many services available in his office. He does have an herbal protocol, but he said that I would have to get my bacterial load lowered before it would be effective for me.
I'd bet he appreciated the herbal protocol. He has me on a lot of natural stuff in addtion to the meds.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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SForsgren
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I disagree with Cave's comments. I see nothing in Dr. H comments to suggest that he feels less excited about the rest of the book. Why do we always have to assume the negative side of things here? Geez
Mind connected to body. Negative thoughts -> less than optimal body. Sometimes I can see why people here are still sick.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Greatcod
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And is that why children stay sick with Lyme--or even die--their negative thoughts?
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SForsgren
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Absolutely not suggesting that kids are sick due to their attitude. I am not suggesting that the only reason people are sick is attitude. Everything is additive. The more negative we are, the less likely we are in a state of healing. I just find that some people here tend to be incredible negative and I don't think that is healing.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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shazdancer
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quote:Negative thoughts -> less than optimal body. Sometimes I can see why people here are still sick.
Scott, I can guarantee you, during the time I was recovering, thinking positively was not on the top of my list. Neither was being negative. Being sick was at the top. And trying to rest. And some days, just putting one foot in front of the other.
But I got better. My believing had nothing to do with it. And my believing had nothing to do with getting sick, either.
Now, maybe cave is jumping to conclusions about who made what comments about what part of the book. Maybe she knows something. I don't know -- ask the reviewers what they meant.
But this I do know, that telling people they are affecting their health by their mindset is wrong, and potentially harmful. If you got that idea from Jer**gan's book, don't say I didn't warn you, because I posted about him two years ago. Read that thread HERE
I think we're all in this patient advocacy thing to help people. So let's be sure and do that, all of us. Think it through, and let's differentiate what we know from what we think we know.
Take care, Shaz
Posts: 1558 | From the Berkshires | Registered: Jul 2001
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SForsgren
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No, I didn't get the idea from Jernigan's book. I have read his book but did not take much away from it - it was some time ago.
I am not suggesting that people with LD can get well with a positive attitude alone. I think it has been proven scientifically though that attitude does affect immune response which does effect recovery and our chances of getting well.
If we are constantly negative and responding negatively to every option or idea that comes along that might lead us to a good place, we only hurt ourselves - and possibly others that we share our negativity with.
It is my opinion that a small portion of the poster's on this board are time and time again negative and I don't think it helps anyone.
This thread is a good example. Someone posted a positive comment on Buhner's book which was immediately re-interpreted and made into something negative. I for one think Buhner is one of the few people that has really done our community a great service.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I am not a real strong beleiver in mind-body medicine, but I do agree with Scott that there are scientific studies which prove that a positive attitude can improve immune function.
On the other hand there are studies that show that ingesting sugar decreases immune function for 6 hours I believe it is.
If you eat sugar and think positive thoughts at the same time I am not sure how the immune system would respond!!!
Bea Seibert
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TerryK
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What I see happen here regularly is that those who do not want to see alternative therapy discussed will immediately respond to any post that is about alternatives with something negative. Often this sparks a heated discussion and takes the whole thread away from the alternative methods. Mission accomplished. The topic is not discussed.
I try to ignore those whose purpose is to divert the post away from alternative methods. I also recognize that they have a right to voice their opinion, even if it is negative as long as they don't take over the post. Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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SForsgren
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I definitely agree with your observation. That is what has, in the past, driven some of the key members of this board with the best information I have found here away.
I could understand it if the people with the negative opinions had in fact tried some of the options or had cured themselves with conventional options only, but it appears that most often, neither is the case.
In fact, in this example, the person posting negative comments about Buhner even confirms this by saying that he or she never even read the book! Now that's a position of authority.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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TerryK
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I agree Scott. At some point, I hope those who have closed their minds and are not 100% well will re-think their position and consider at least trying some of the things that have been so helpful to others. In the meantime, it would be nice if they would afford those of us who want to explore alternatives the respect and peace to do so. Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Kind of afraid to jump in here, but here's my .02:
Most people would probably agree that a positive attitude is important to healing. But when it comes to the degree of openness you have, is more always better? There are an infinite number of things that `might' help, and we all have to draw the line somewhere or you'll be broke and frustrated in the long run (unless you're very lucky). Where we draw that line is a tough personal decision that changes over time based on experience:
- If you feel you've been helped a lot by holistic approaches, or are just starting out and putting your faith in them, a lot of skepticism may be unwarranted and negative.
- If you've invested lots of money, time and hope in many holistic approaches that proved fruitless for you, and were helped far more by conventional antibiotics (yes, these people exist - I am one), a higher degree of skepticism may be a positive thing to restore your sanity, and may be empowering.
Is there anyone here who hasn't drifted between these two poles (in either or both directions)? And is that such a bad thing? None of us has all the answers. We'll only get them through dialogue.
I just hope everyone understands that when you ask someone who has suffered with this horrible disease to invest hope in something, whether conventional or alternative, you are in fact asking a lot. If some on the conventional side are too closed-minded, I think it's safe to say that some on the alternative side tend to make awfully big (or vague) promises that can turn people off. Having read most of Buhner's book, I would NOT place him in this category.
Respect and peace, couldn't agree more.
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dontlikeliver
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All I can say is that, I asked Dr H directly, when he recommended I try the Cowden Protocol in addition to my abx, if he thought I could do Buhner's instead because from my own past experience and watching the experience of others on Lymenet/Cowden since 2003, I have not been impressed by the stories told on Lymenet and Eurolyme by those on Cowden.
He said he preferred I tried Cowden's as he really didn't know much about Buhner's.
In any case, I have not tried Buhner's yet, but I may do it in the future. It is the one herbal protocol that seems to be a bit promising.
[ 29. March 2007, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: dontlikeliver ]
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luvs2ride
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Why do we always have to assume the negative side of things here? Geez
Cave is passionate in her fight against anything but antibiotics to cure lyme. She is driven by the fear that sufficient antibiotics are going to be taken away from us as a treatment course. She has much right to feel this way. The future of longterm antibiotics as a treatment for lyme is in peril.
Still, this passion has taken away her ability to be objective and open to any potential healing outside of antibiotics. She is always first to counter any support and proof of the effectiveness of medical treatments that alter from antibiotics and the first to applaud any account of their failure to cure.
As such, her contributions have to be discounted due to their lack of objectiveness.
Cave does contribute many good articles pertaining to antibiotic treatments and her posts both of approval and disapproval are not offensive in the way some others in the past were.
She is entitled to voice her opinion and so is Scott.
And so am I!
Luvs
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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treepatrol
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quote:Originally posted by luvs2ride: Why do we always have to assume the negative side of things here? Geez
Cave is passionate in her fight against anything but antibiotics to cure lyme. She is driven by the fear that sufficient antibiotics are going to be taken away from us as a treatment course. She has much right to feel this way. The future of longterm antibiotics as a treatment for lyme is in peril.
Still, this passion has taken away her ability to be objective and open to any potential healing outside of antibiotics. She is always first to counter any support and proof of the effectiveness of medical treatments that alter from antibiotics and the first to applaud any account of their failure to cure.
As such, her contributions have to be discounted due to their lack of objectiveness.
Cave does contribute many good articles pertaining to antibiotic treatments and her posts both of approval and disapproval are not offensive in the way some others in the past were.
She is entitled to voice her opinion and so is Scott.
And so am I!
Luvs
Theres nothing wrong with using plants to help heal people but there is something wrong with this.
F. New Age Movement The modern New Age Movement is an attempt to introduce paganism and the occult into the thinking of modern Americans.
James Lovelock is a leader in the modern Gaian Hypothesis, which views the earth as a goddess, a living organism that evolves and controls evolution. He wrote: "...as far back as the earliest artifacts can be found, it seems that the Earth was worshipped as a goddess and believed to be alive." He said also: "The evolution of the species and the evolution of their environment are tightly coupled together as a single and inseparable process."
Dr. Rupert Sheldrake said: "All nature is evolutionary. The cosmos is like a great developing organism, and evolutionary creativity is inherent in nature herself."
These views are the basis of much of the current thinking of the environmentalist movement. (All the above found in Impact #234, 12/92.)
Abortion Evolution contributes to the modern acceptance of abortion.
Dr. Carl Sagan is a well-known astronomer and author, who appears on the Cosmos series on Public TV. He is an ardent evolutionist, and a defender of abortion. In Parade Magazine, 4/22/90, he co-authored an article defending abortion on the basis of the evolutionary argument that the developing fetus in the mother's womb passes through the various stages of its evolutionary history. The force of his argument is that, in the various animal stages it passes through, it is no more wrong to kill it than it would be to kill an animal. (Back to Genesis, #48, 12/92)
The fact is that abortion fits perfectly with the evolutionary mind set. If killing animals is acceptable, then killing humans is acceptable too since we are just advanced animals. And the less advanced the human is, the less intelligent and capable of productive work it is, the more acceptable it is to kill it. This justifies the modern abortion and euthanasia movement.
Hitler practiced abortion as a means of "survival of the fittest." He believed people unfit to live should be killed. Much of this was done to unborn babies, but he was willing to practice it on people of all ages. How far is our society from his?
Matthew 7:15-21 - False teachers are known by their fruit. Good trees cannot bear bad fruit and bad trees cannot bear good fruit. Any doctrine that produces fruit such as we have seen evolution produces, must be an evil doctrine, and those who teach it must be false teachers. But those who speak the truth must teach and do the will of the Father in heaven.
Acts 17:24 - When we realize that God is the creator, we must also recognize Him as Lord. If He made the world, He deserves to rule it and we must accept His will. His will, as we have seen, is revealed in the Bible. [Rom. 1:20]
When we compromise the Bible statements about our origin, we end up being confused about our purpose in life, our destiny after life, and the standard by which we ought to live our lives. We can understand our purpose in life and the proper standard for life only when we understand our origin.
Let us summarize the fundamental dangers that face anyone who becomes a believer in evolution or who compromises the Bible teaching of creation:
1. Evolution undermines faith in God and encourages unbelief.
2. It denies the truth of hundreds of passages throughout the Bible and leads to rejection of the Bible as our standard of right and wrong.
3. It encourages denial of other miracles including the virgin birth and the resurrection.
4. It denies man is in the image of God and views us as mere animals.
5. It denies the Divine origin and authority for marriage.
6. It destroys our means for recognizing false teachers.
7. It denies the fall of man and the origin of sin and death.
8. It implies that life is without meaning or purpose.
9. It implies that man is wholly material without eternal rewards.
10. It leaves us with no basis for determining eternal rewards.
11. It implies there is no means and no reason for becoming a child of God.
12. It implies Jesus was just a fallible human or a legend.
13. It undermines the relationship between Jesus and His church.
14. It destroys the concept of absolute moral standards and promotes human wisdom and lack of restraint.
15. It undermines the need for salvation through Jesus.
Any attempt to compromise with evolution leads inevitably to a rejection of Bible teaching.
Thats my opinion.
Heres his group called The Foundation for Gaian Studies
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Truthfinder
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I think I posted this before. We'll call it ``The Evolution of Medicine'':
2000 BC - Here, eat this root
1000 AD - That root is heathen. Here, say this prayer.
1850 AD - That prayer is superstition. Here, drink this potion.
1920 AD - That potion is snake oil. Here, swallow this pill.
1945 AD - That pill is ineffective. Here, take this penicillin.
1955 AD - Oops! Bugs mutated. Here, take this tetracycline.
1960-1999 AD - Oops!...39 more times. Here, take this more powerful antibiotic.
2000 AD - The bugs have won! Here, eat this root.
- Anonymous
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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robi
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Wow, that is great Tracey!!!!!!!!
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
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shazdancer
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I think ldfighter stated pretty succinctly where I'm coming from. Thanks, ld!
Tracy, that is hysterical! and all too true...
Scott, thank you for specifying where you are coming from. I have great respect for the time and energy you have put into learning and communicating about TBDs.
To be fair, I will try to explain where I am coming from, with a couple of examples thrown in -- sorry for the length...
My mother has decided to treat her late-stage Lyme by treating her symptoms only. She has quite a laundry list of things wrong with her (a couple that are probably not Lyme-related), and quite a list of powerful prescription medications that she takes.
I would guess that some of these medications interfere with her body's normal functioning (i.e. side effects), but the risks of not taking them outweigh the risks of taking them. This is not how I approach treating Lyme, but it is how she feels comfortable approaching it.
Some people have posted here that they are feeling much better on supplements and herbs. When asked what they take, many have cited a laundry list of pills and preparations, some taking over 30 pills a day. Some have said that they feel a little better on them, some have improved a lot.
I would guess that some of their medications interfere with the body's normal functions. I would be concerned that some medications interact with each other, or do nothing but cost a lot. If it takes a treatment more than a month to work, or doesn't make a significant difference, I don't tend to go with it.
As for me, I have always been a "take the least that can do the most" kind of person. I try to eat a good old-fashioned balanced diet. I try to get regular exercise. I laugh a lot. I don't abuse substances, and I try to get enough sleep. I know, boring.
Happily, my immune function is pretty good, even with Lyme. An LLMD told me that that increases my chances of responding well to conventional treatment. That has proved to be the case.
Am I cured? No - I would consider myself to be in remission. I still have a few symptoms that fluctuate, but nothing debilitating. I work 3 jobs, am back in school, single parenting a kid who has Lyme, and tackling a few projects, including Lyme advocacy ones. I take a few supplements (from Dr. B's list, and not all of those), and an occasional Excedrin.
As I said, I have grave concerns when it appears that people are being blamed for their illness. My other concern is when people come on and say that one protocol is the only way.
I think most Lymenetters agree that antibiotics are the first defense against early Lyme, and most all of medicine (both mainstream and alternative, ILADS and IDSA) concur. We need newbies to know that. But for late stage Lyme, the jury is still out. I hope our posts can reflect that, too.
Take care, Shaz
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CaliforniaLyme
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I've got to say- re mind-body healing- when I finally turned around- when I stopped getting weaker stopped going into dementia-
I believed I was going to die-
I had NEVER been so pessimistic about my future-
that is the truth-
my mother and my husband believed I was going to die were talking about putting me in a tertiary care facility because I was SUCH a BURDEN!!! My then husband had to help me into the bathtub and out and help me stand up and he had to cook everything and care for our child because I couldn't anymore- and I htought I was going to die- until then i had been hopeful-
I had given up at last-
the doc who put in my groshong- tears were streaming down my face and he wiped them away- with a kleenex- so gently- I told him I didn't evebn know why I was getting a groshong it was hopeless and he said all of my doctors patients that he had seen all ended up getting better- sometimes it took awhile- and I remember NOT BELIEVING HIM!!!!
I could no longer remember my childs NAME most of the time!!!!!
Her name is Evan!!!
I would STARE at her and go, "WHAT IS HER NAME? I HAVE TO KNOW HER NAME WHAT IS HER NAME???"
And I DIDN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Over & over- and then I would remember and I would try and hold on to it and I COULDN'T!!!
Anyway- I got better- ANYWAY!!!! It took a while for it to sink in. Why, how strange, there isn't AGONY in that tiny section of my hand. How strange, no agony there!!! And the next day, again, for LONGER, for like 5 minutes, oh my god, no AGONY AGAIN, how WEIRD!!!! And I can eat normally- and wait- Evan- her name is Evan- I can remember her name again!!!!!
It ran backwards in order the symptoms came-
But so I think the mind/body stuff is garbage-
Also I had so many friends from my high school days die of AIDS because I had a lot of gay male friends in high school from the LA nightclub scene- and so many of them were so positive mentally as well as physically- and they died- died- died-
this was the first wave pre AIDS drugs-
like the Marc Almond song-
"from chrysanthemums... to chrysanthemums... my friends, they are departing-"
and smiling and laughing and meditating and praying didn't save them-
my husbands best friend also died of AIDS he was an African American PhD motorcycle guy great guy = Jimmy- the most upbeat guy in the world-
my last friend to die of AIDS was also named Jim just a couple of years ago and he had lived with HIV+ for 15+ years and he was suicidal THE WHOLE TIME!!!!!
So the mind-body thing- nope!!! In many ways I think it is garabge-
ON THE OTHER HAND I don't drink or use drugs period and I think that saved me with Lyme because I don't think I would have been able to have the clarity required to follow a med protocol and follow LLMD orders if I was drinking-
so in that way it makes sense for me-
some of you may have super-duper powers that may evade AIDS and Lyme like my poor cells can't- and I wish you the best if you do- but I am human- and can die!!!! Just like Vito and Jim and Jimmy & Gary- and Glenn Killion-
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Greatcod
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The fact of antibiotic resistance is sufficient proof that evolution is a fraud. And herbal antibiotics don't produce resistant strains because they aren't powerful enough. Right?
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CaliforniaLyme
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p.s. I don't get what all that Jesus stuff is doing on a thread re Lyme disease!!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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heiwalove
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i definitely believe there's a mind-body connection but i don't believe it's a simple cause-and-effect equation.. and i certainly don't think people are sick/dying because they have a 'negative attitude.'
californialyme, i'm so sorry to hear you have lost so many dear ones to AIDS. if i were a decade or more older, i'd be in your shoes.. being part of the queer community myself, i have tons of wonderful gay male friends.
also, yeah, what the heck is all that jesus stuff doing in this thread? totally off topic and off-putting and irrelevant. yikes.
posted
If you look at the start of this thread, my post was asking a question. It was not judging. It seems to me that those people who instantly see things like that as negative are being negative themselves. Why could they not see it as a simple request for information, which it was. Not sure it was appropriate, however, to ask about the specific practices of a doc on a public forum. For that, I should probably apologize.
I hardly ever see anyone on antibiotic treatment who says they have all the answers, have been cured, etc. They use them because antibiotics are known to work on bacterial infections and have been tested extensively. The fact that germs become resistant is actually proof of evolution, not the contrary.
On the other hand, people on "alternative" treatments are much more evangelical, insisting this is the only way, abx will kill you, etc. This is closed minded and not appropriate on a public forum like this. Herbal treatments may have some good applications, some will, some won't. Unfortunately, without a lot of testing, we are not going to find out which is which. And big pharma is not going to do this if it doesn't lead to a patent. So, really what we have here is people using a belief system in place of scientific testing. OK if they want to do this, but not OK to push it on others.
Asian medicines include such materials as powdered rhino horn and bear gallbladder potions (or is it liver?) Testing has not found that there is any value to these treatments and in fact they have led to poaching and endangered animal populations. So, don't count on folk remedies as the gospel.
And please remember that Buhner is not a doctor and has never treated a single patient. Neither is sky king who sells his rife book. No one is collecting the stats on treatment efficacy for these across a large number of patients. The only people we hear from are the passionate advocates. This is not good enough. We need unbiased collection of evidence for all treatments.
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treepatrol
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Well said lou
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
quote:Originally posted by Greatcod: And herbal antibiotics don't produce resistant strains because they aren't powerful enough. Right?
Not really...oregano contains chemicals which have kept the plant from being overtaken by fungus, bacteria, etc for a LONG time. Every living thing must have a defense or it simply will not exist. Now...can we get these herbs in sufficient strength to erradicate disease in humans??? time will tell.
Concerning traditional abx...they come from simple organisms like mold that have been in competition with bacteria forever. Mutation and adaptation is the name of the game.
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luvs2ride
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BTW Tree, I'm a christian. I can't imagine what on earth about my post sent you on such a religious tirade.
Luvs
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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treepatrol
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Iam not upset or on a religious tirade I was ponting out that this Gaian connection is worshiping earth and we are told not to worship the creation but the creator.Thats all not mad or upset. Sorry if I upset people But not sorry for using the lord and saviors name he has that effect on people.Well not all people
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
SForsgren
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and for the record...
I believe that the combination of both antibiotics AND alternative therapies may result in a better outcome than either alone.
I am not against antibiotics and as noted on my site, I am still incorporating antibiotic therapy. I am hoping that will be something that soon comes to an end, but I don't dispute that they can be very important for people.
I would also like to add that beyond the comment I made on negativity resulting in a lesser chance of healing via immune mechanisms, etc., I think it is also the result of missing out on some therapies that may be useful to a person. For example, if you immediately dismiss Buhner's work when one really is not even knowledgeable about it, they may be missing a very key therapeutic option that could have provided benefits.
I think it is fine for one to make that decision for themselves, but I do not believe that expressing that same negativity and opinion is appropriate when it may also keep someone else from getting benefits from a given therapy. It just isn't fair to people that come to this site looking for possible answers.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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On the topic of antibiotic resistance, I've thought that came from the antibiotics killing off the non-resistant bacteria, leaving only the resistant bacteria, which existed in the beginning and did not evolve.
Once the antibiotics are stopped, then the resistant bacteria has a chance to take over.
That is why stregthening the immune system and switching around treatment is effective.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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as for abx resistance sixgoofy...thats kinda right. If you underdose one is begging for resistant bugs to develop. That stated, even if proper dosage is given from the billions and billions of bacteria it only takes one mutation and wallah resistance.
I've read some good info on the net on staph and how it mutates into VRSA. (VRSA meaning it has no structured cell wall to disrupt...aka check mate on all traditional abx). I suggest googling it for a great read!
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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Right behind Calyme and Heather---What is that Jesus stuff doing on here. I thought I was reading a book review!!!????
Can't we just assume that we are all from different religious orientations and backgrounds and celebrate that we have this awesome forum to use in a way to come together! ?
Sheeesh.
Posts: 460 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2005
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Greatcod
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Yes, Lou put it very well indeed. I don't have any answers to Lyme, only questions. The questions are about treatment effectiveness, and that includes ABX and alternatives. Early on, ABX work reasonably well, but it seems to me the longer people are sick, the less effective ABX are. I suspect the same is true for alternatives, but I surely don't know. I believe that bacterial load is a huge factor in recovery, especially for those not diagnosed or misdiagnosed for years. And I keep in mind that Lyme, like its cousin, Relapsing Fever, is for many a relapsing-remiting illness...it seems to go away, or at least get better, without treatment, and then reappears. True especially in the first 3-4 years. So we aren't always certain if a treatment worked, or the Lyme simply remitted on its own. And we also need to know what percent of people who use a treatment are significantly helped.
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this post cracks me up. thanks, i needed a laugh since im having yet another crappy day due to my debilitating fatigue and pain.
the truth in the fight against lyme and these other mysterious bacterial illnesses lies with antibiotics, herbs, supplements, rife, homeopathy, mind/body, etc.
here's the truth:
some ppl get well/better from abx. some ppl can't tolerate abx at all and in fact get sicker and sicker and sicker while on them
some ppl get well on herbs, some don't
some ppl get well w/supplements and or homeopathy, some dont.
some ppl get better w/rife, some don't.
ALOT of ppl get better using a combination of many approaches.
why is there so much dogma around here about the RIGHT way to get better. there is no Right way. It varies from person to person.
when i read cave and calyme's posts i wish to god my body reacted like theirs to abx and i could take abx and heal. unfortunately this has not been the case and belive me...i've tried and tried w/3 of the best llmd's around.
should i stop looking for a way to heal because abx aren't tolerated by my body. am i a failure or a bad person b/c they don't work for me. should i be ridiculed because i am interested in trying different approaches...just trying to get my life back.
there is way too much judgement passed around on this board.
the truth is noone knows the single answer to recover from this disease....so we should continue to be able hear about and learn about as many different approaches as possible.
cave/calyme: i am soooooo happy that abx gave you both your lives back. just don't be so closed minded to the fact that this does not work for everyone and we deserve options and hope too.
warmest regards, lisa
ps. of course maintaining a positive attitude is good and helpful. can it cure a devastating illness, who knows...
but it definetely feels better to be laughing and smiling then to be crying and feeling suicidal.
Is it possible to always be positive when faced with this crushing illness.....of course not, but it helps to try. it gives us hope!!!!
why do people argue about things that seem so obvious to our human nature...life is better when you feel good, healthy and happy.
life can suck when you feel sick, sad and unhappy.
if we can still try to find some happiness despite our illnesses, it only seems natural that we will feel a bit better. : )
pps. why are so many so antagonistic to bryan rosner. because he wrote a few books about what he's learned about treating lyme disease?!?! if you don't like the books dont buy them....but really, why all the hostility?
Posts: 92 | From berkeley, ca, usa | Registered: Jan 2005
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hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Gosh, I just posted this thread because I thought it could make people that haven't still bought the book to read it. Specially newbies. Even if you don't think to do the protocol!
I read most of the posts with surprise!
Buhner is NOT against abx for lyme either. He even put Burrascano and the ILADS as reference in the end of his book.
How can any guy speak about the protocol of Buhner after the book was just published? No one was on the protocol by then. He could only comment about the picture of lyme disease Buhner presented, which was good in his words.
Anyway.... I gotta go to bed, almost 2 am here.
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
lisag - well said.
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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sometimesdilly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9982
posted
maybe, at at a certain point very far past the beginning of battling lyme and adjusting to the accompanying universe of profound of changes of every kind it causes, we each of us grab on for dear life to whatever makes the most sense and seems to work for our individual circumstances.
we've all earned that right.
five years into neuro-lyme, 1 year into tx of heavy-duty abx with no result, my eyes are wide open and i appreciate hearing about my full range of options.
no one but ourselves can decide what's right for our own circumstances, and no one's MAKING anybody do or take a dang thing, so why waste energy getting hepped up over what someone else is doing??
thanks to everyone who takes the time to write about what works for them.
dilly
Posts: 2507 | From lost in the maze | Registered: Aug 2006
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
And HERE comes JimBoB!
My, quite a thread. I won't get into the religion part, as that would go on for many, many pages. ##
POSTED by LOU: And please remember that Buhner is not a doctor and has never treated a single patient. ##
WHERE did YOU get YOUR info LOU? THAT statement by you is TOTALLY UNTRUE! HE treated himself for one. He HAS treated MANY patients in the past, but not for Lyme. He IS a Master Herbalist. And while YOU don't and can't understand that, many of us do. ###
I agree with SkyKing, Scott; it IS an uphill battle. BUT so is fighting LymeD., so we should be up to the task.
WHY are you surprised, Selma? I am not. I was more surprised the other day with a post knocking me on the BUHNER Lyme Aid list for supporting Buhner's Protocols as what we SHOULD be supporting THERE.
You get people in ALL of these online groups that slink in and TRY to upset the applecart. We call them TROLLS. There IS no other reason why they even read OUR threads. I belong to the American Idol group. It is the same there too.
I was wondering about Cave. I thought SHE was a guy. NOW I understand.
Some people have nothing better to do with their lives than to try to make others miserable. IT is jealousy for the most part. Some feel IF they were miserable while treating their Lyme, WHY should anyone else have the privilege to FEEL GOOD while they are treating theirs?!?!?
Read the bottom of MY signature. AND pay attention to it. We DO have that right, at least here in America.
hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Yes, I was almost excusing to have written that I DO FEEL good on herbal protocols.
I guess people here are suggesting I'm lying???
I was also surprised that this protocol worked so far, for me, at least, that's why I keep posting. It was a fast recovery, not a cure, but I left the bottom line and am back to life.
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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I come to this website to share my experience and learn from others; to find and share strength; and to find and share hope.
I think Lymenet is doing a pretty good job. I have learned so much here. I have not only been exposed to Burrascano and LLMD referrals, but Buhner, Klinghardt, rife, Cowen, . . . the list goes on.
I try to remember that people are often suffering terribly on here. Hence, "negativity".
And I will say another thing that most will probably disagree with but here it is:
We are babes in the woods when it comes to understanding this bug and how it behaves in human bodies. We only have a few clinical trial, invitro studies, and our own individual experience. It is scary to have a disease that is so poorly understood. What's a Lymie to do? We just do the best we can.
Even though I am really doing nicely with recovery, I don't know why, and I don't know if it will last.
I am hoping you all keep sharing your information, experience, strength and hope.
That being said, my plan is to titrate off abx this month, and go on Buhner's and Schardt's protocol. Fingers crossed that I don't relapse!
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