Topic: Those on herbs....do you ever get off them?
Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
I'm am seriously looking into to Buhner's protocol. Just got 2 of his books and I do find them VERY interesting. I love a simple explanation of how these bugs work as in Healing Lyme.
I am curious though, have any of you who have been on them a long time been able to stop them or do you always so far need at least a maintenace dose?
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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clairenotes
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Member # 10392
posted
Buhner lists 8-12 months, or until the disease is under control. This is for the herbs in the core protocol.
I am almost positive I read that JimBob has been on the herbal protocol for over a year. Maybe he will be by to clarify this. There are two others whose posts I have followed and I don't think they are done either, though they seemed to have greatly improved.
Not sure about maintenance dose. Perhaps Jimbob considers his protocol maintenance, now. But my interpretation is that Buhner expects that people will eventually be free of the herbs.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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valymemom
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posted
I just heard from a woman whose entire family of 8 has lyme/co. She has had everyone of them on only Cowden's herbal protocol and reports that they are coming along and she is doing really well. When I met her two years ago at Hope to Heal she spoke of her various hospitalizations and years of problems.
I got the feeling she will remain on these for a long time.
Posts: 1240 | From Centreville,VA | Registered: Mar 2005
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JimBoB
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posted
Yes, I am "maintaining". I feel it ALL depends on HOW LONG you have had Lyme, HOW LONG it will take to control it or even get rid of it. It is the same with antibiotics. IF you catch the Lyme within 2 or 3 weeks, you can usually get rid of it. IF you wait, like I did, for 5 months, it is a different story.
I was bit in October 1999, but waited to go to the doctor for 5 months, until March of 2000. When he diagnosed me with Lyme, clinically. And gave me 24 days of Cipro. I did improve on abx after that 24 day regimen.
But like many do, I relapsed. It took about 8 or 9 months for that to happen. And the relapse was slow. And became neuro, along with the arthritis. So it was confusing. AND my duck wouldn't treat me, after the initial 24 day dose.
This was 5 and one half years after my initial abx, Cipro. I have now had Lyme for 7.5 years.
So I joined this group, bought the book, Healing Lyme from Stephen H. Buhner, and improved within several days. But since Buhner recommended abx along with the herbs, I started Tetracycline for 28 days, then after a 7 day layoff, I took Doxycycline. I wanted to go for 28 days on that too, but my stomach was in such pain all the time I could only go for 24 days, then quit it.
I was actually set back taking those abx. Took me several weeks to recuperate with the herbs.
But I DID get MUCH better on the herbs. I never got up to Buhner's recommended 4 pills, 4 times a day, but instead I took 4 pills, 3 times a day. I did this for about 5 or 6 months. Then I cut back little by little. I maintained 3 pills, 2 times a day, and did okay.
A couple of weeks ago, I went down to 2 pills, two times a day, and most of my symptoms came back. THAT was a little disheartening. Finally, a few days ago, I upped my dosage to 3 pills, two times a day, and I am feeling a lot better again, though not quite as good as I was before.
JWF on this group did herbs, along with his wife, and he took them for two years and three months. He says he has been symptom free for a long time now.
Some never get up to the maximum protocols and still do well on the herbs. So it depends on the person, how sensitive they are and HOW BAD they have Lyme and coinfections.
I have been on the herbs for 16 months now, as of March 25, 2007.
I hope some day, NOT to have to depend on herbs to feel better, but IF that day doesn't come, I am prepared to keep taking them as long as they help with my symptoms. I do a lot more than the "Core" protocol though.
Hope this helps give you a little insight into this.
Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Thanks, I was curious because Buhner does use the word cure here and there. I figure though a few herbs are ok to live with.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Yes, MUCH better to live with a few herbs than to feel like you are going to die with abx.
posted
I view herbs kind of like I view foods. Really, many of them are foods.
Over the years you find various ones to be good for you or of some use, others less so. Hopefully you would avoid anything harmful. Altogether, it makes up what we would call a balanced diet.
I haven't been pondering 'getting off of them' though, no more than I would be trying to get off of food.
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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lymewreck36
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Member # 4395
posted
I've heard the "Buhner Protocal" name being bounced around, but I have no idea what it is. As my body is becoming very burned out after 4 years of high dose antibiotics of any single kind, I am wondering more and more about all natural approaches.
Please do tell. :-)
mary
Posts: 1034 | From North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2003
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Vermont_Lymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9780
posted
Mary,
It is a book that Buhner wrote called "Healing Lyme." In it he describes a herbal protocol for lyme and co-infections, including resveratrol, cat's claw, and andrographis.
His book is highly recommended -- you can buy it through Amazon at the link on the lymenet site.
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
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CherylSue
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Member # 13077
posted
Which is more effective? Buhner's protocol or Cowden's protocol?
Posts: 1954 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2007
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klutzo
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Member # 5701
posted
There are proponents of each, both doctors and patients, so I will not argue which is better.
I was unable to tolerate andrographis at all (it noticeably raised my already high blood pressure), so it's no surprise that the rest of Buhner Protocol did not do much for me without the main herb.
I have been on a modified, older version of the Cowden Protocol, on and off for most of the past 4 years, with breaks to try the Buhner, Monastery of Herbs, and Zhang Protocols, and a recent break from any kind of tx at all.
I could never work up to the full recommended dosage of Samento on the Cowden, though I did take the maximum dose of Cumanda. Samento made me herx far more than any herb on any other protocol,so I do think it works.
However, just as with the Buhner Protocol, once again I was unable to take one component of the Protcol....Quina, and all other quinines, make me stop breathing, so I could not take it. That means I've had zero tx for Babesia.
However, low doses of Samento have helped me cope a great deal, easing the constant chills I had at night, increasing my energy, and most important of all, easing my secondary depression.
I stopped it for more than 6 months recently, sick and tired of herxing all the time, and my night chills came back, plus my depression got so bad that I never left the house and stopped even trying to drive.
I am back on a low dose of Samento now, below the herxing level, and able to drive again enough do the family grocery shopping. I am adding L-tryptophan to help with the depression.
Good luck to you whichever protocol you decide to try.
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
welcome cheryl sue,
i have a newbie package of 63 pages of links, advise, symptoms, tests, disability, much more including treepatrol's archive of over 1000 sites of good lyme info.
would you EDIT MY PROFILE to allow private messages be sent to you. YOU can block anyone you wish!
after you have done this, please send me a pm, it's 2 people standing together by envelope asking me to send you my newbie package; thx!
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posted
JimBob-I'm confused-initially, did you just do 21 days of abx? I've been on them a year-thinking of switching to herbs.
Posts: 561 | From eastcoast | Registered: Aug 2006
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hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
I also did more than a year on Buhner's herbs, got next to remission, then got reinfected again last May.
My first infection story is related in General - success stories.
I feel I'm getting out of this second reinfection too, mostly with herbs, but with MANY more herbs than core protocol (I only took 2 weeks doxy low dose).
I'm slowly publishing here what worked for me, many are Buhner's herbs (see 'alternative bartonella protocol')
I'll publish my babesia protocol soon (all alternative, not abx), as I think I got rid of it for the second time. Still knocking on wood though!
I also see some herbs as food, some others are more killers though (like andrographis, artemisinin, artemisia annua, pau d'arco, oregano, GSE, for example).
What I find missing in B's protocol is a more thorough cleansing protocol. His immune system boosting/ immune modulation herbs are great.
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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hardynaka
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Member # 8099
posted
I forgot to answer the main question: I suppose one will have to be on maintenance for a long time, specially if you dont' treat heavy metals and other issues like teeth/ jaw.
That's what my doctor keeps telling me.
I intend to go on immune modulators, cleansers, and tonic (like eleuthero) for a long time if I get to remission one day. All herbs / homeopathics.
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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It's good to hear that herbs are helping some of you. We are still maintaining with herbs now since March '04.
Down to: Cat's Claw Sarsaparilla Kyolic Garlic Formulas 103 & 105 Folic Acid NAC (Cysteine) Grape Seed Extract
That's it. Still symptom free and some of you know that we also battled Morgellons for a couple of years. The herbs pulled us through that as well.
Blue Skies........John
Posts: 134 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Shoney: I was on CIPRO for 24 days initially. THAT is ALL my duck would prescribe. IT did work. IN five days my tendonitis went away, totally. ANd stayed away for about 8 to 9 months. Then, like I have reported on this group and on the Buhner group, many times, I SLOWLY relapsed.
By fall of 2005, I got so bad I thought I would die for sure. MUCH worse than in the beginning. Went back to my duck, and he said it couldn't be Lyme as I HAD to be cured on the more than 21 days of abx. HE said, ALL people are cured with 21 days of abx. HE said HE was bitten and cured TWICE with 21 days of abx.
Course HE did NOT wait 5 months to go for treatment like I did.
I have now been on Buhner's protocols for over 21 months.
I AM on a maintenance dose of about 30 capsules a day, right now. I recently have quit cat's claw, (at least for awhile), to see IF I still need it or not. I am still on the Andro, Hu Zhang, Devil's Claw, Sarsaparilla, Stephania Root, Milk Thistle, and Olive leaf, (just trying it again, don't know IF it is doing any good or not). In capsules. Plus C-Salts with Red Root and Periwinkle tinctures.
I was on three times a day, now I am on two times a day.
I may start Teasel in the near future and see what affect that has on me.
posted
John, I was just thinking of you today, and was going to PM you, as I hadn't heard anything from you for a long while.
GOod to hear you two are symptom free. Gives the rest of us hope.
I am still not symptom free, but not too bad most of the time either. At least I can get a fairly decent days work in, with my 66 year old bones and muscles.
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