Topic: Sexual and other person to personTransmission
daystar1952
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3255
posted
I don't know if this has been done before but I think it may be helpful to conduct a survey as to whether spouses of known infected chronic lyme patients....also have symptoms indicative of lyme disease. No one appears to be doing studies in this area, which I feel is a very crucial area to be investigating
If any lyme patients here have spouses or children (other possible means of person to person transmission)who seem to have weird symptoms but not severe enough to test them for lyme, maybe you could post about it or email me privately. Seems like we need some type of informal database to give impetus to further investigation into this area.
Of course we are talking about spouses and children who have had no known tickbites
One of my children seemed to fit into this category...no known tickbite but did present with much milder symptoms than I had but were very similar. The symptoms were not as extensive. For example, it didn't seem to affect the cognitive abilities, altho there were tourettes type symptoms...among others.
Also does anyone know of any research which shows that lyme may be transmitted through intercourse? Thanks so much
Posts: 1176 | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
It is my opinion, as well as the opinion of my LLMDs that lyme is not sexually transmitted. Congenital transmission is more likely, however. The reason being that it is so easy to get bitten and not know it, so many of the apparent sexual transmission cases are more likely resultant from an unnoticed tick bite.
My LLMDs have treated many people who had intercourse or other sexual relations while infected and their partners show no signs or symptoms of lyme, even after many years. This is true in my personal case as well, as I had a relationship for the better part of 3-4 years when I was undiagnosed (or rather, misdiagnosed). I think the infection rate would be much, much higher than it is were it to be sexually transmissible.
Posts: 691 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote: I think the infection rate would be much, much higher than it is were it to be sexually transmissible.
How do you know the infection rate is not higher is it because of all of the great doctors diagnosising Lyme or because of the highly accurate testing. Even some at the CDC say Lyme is ten fold underreported.
There is much controversy over this question. My LLMD and myself agree that it is sexually transmitted. He is treating too many couples for it to be a coincidence. Also, many of the couples have the same strain of Lyme with the exact same bands on the WB test.
Posts: 649 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I tested Igenex positive for Lyme My wife tested Igenex negitive for Lyme, however she did have some IND bands that concerned the Doc.
He too belives that it is transmittable. He has treated a lot of couples for the infection.
We started her out on Doxy for a few months to see what happens. She has had some mild herx symptoms. Oh and her CD57 was 54.
We are going to treat her until that number gets above 200.
-------------------- 26 months of treatment. And counting....... Posts: 298 | From Northeast Kansas | Registered: Oct 2006
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
I do NOT believe it is sexually transmitted except perhaps like Hep C in rare instances-
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Unfortunately, most of the evidence for or against sexual transmission is going to be questioned until we actually develop more accurate testing methods.
There is something going on besides just tick bites. Too many asymptomatic spouses and partners are coming up positive on the tests.
Perhaps the new flow cytometry antigen test being done by CFR will help solve some of these puzzles.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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canbravelyme
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Member # 9785
posted
When I saw Dr. S. in CA, he relayed a study where two female mice were put in a cage together. One mouse was infected with Lyme, the other not.
After a length? of time, both mice were infected. Mice tend to sleep together in a ball, and are generally physically close.
Food for thought...
-------------------- For medical advice related to Lyme disease, please see an ILADS physician. Posts: 1494 | From Getting there... | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote: There is something going on besides just tick bites. Too many asymptomatic spouses and partners are coming up positive on the tests.
Whether it is sexually transmitted or not I agree with this statement. There has to be more vectors than the tick for Lyme to be rampant as it is.
quote: After a length? of time, both mice were infected. Mice tend to sleep together in a ball, and are generally physically close.
Psychologists and Medical Doctors have been writing about their new theories; Most if not all diseases are infectious. 99% of all the diseases RA docs treat have no known cause. I do not agree with the term "hereditary" when it comes to illness. I think it is just a synonym for a close quarter infections.
There was a article in Pyschology Today stating that many mental problems are infections from bacteria or viruses. Years ago all problems were because of your family life mainly your mother. Then fifty years ago it was DNA or genetics causing mental issues. Today they are saying infections may just be the cause. There is an interesting blurb about a doctor who claims OCD is strep.
daystar1952
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3255
posted
I was just informed that Willy B claims that spirochetes can invade intact mucous membranes and skin ...under the right conditions
Posts: 1176 | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
Holy Moly,,,, Duke77's post is earth shaking!!!
I have long suspected that micro organisms were the cause of mental diseases.
I believe that Lyme is only the tip of the ice burg.
It all goes back to the stupid idea that a low natural fat diet is good for you and low cholesterol (fuels immune system) is healthy. Nothing is futher from the truth....
Here is some recommendations from the Article "inflection Connection" by Harriet Washington.
Since we know so little about the viruses and bacteria that cause some types of mental illness, it makes sense to avoid them when you can. Here, advice on preventing infection from leading scientists (much of which sounds uncannily like Mom's):
o Eat a healthy diet.
o Get plenty of sleep.
o Reduce stress.
o Get a flu shot each fall.
o Be aware that sex with multiple partners raises your risk of infection.
o Wash your hands frequently. (Though you might be tempted to use one of the many antibacterial soaps on the market, such cleansers may promote the growth of drug-resistant "superbugs.")
o Don't eat meat that isn't well-cooked, or if you have any questions about how it was stored or prepared.
o Find out whether you have any physical conditions that increase your risk of infection, and discuss preventive steps with your doctor. If, for example, you have a prolapsed mitral valve (a valve in the heart that doesn't close properly, increasing risk of infection), your doctor may recommend that you take antibiotics before having dental work done.
o Pay attention to your body. Even minor symptoms--fever, chills, a sore neck--can mean you're doing battle with an infection, and you should discuss them with your doctor. Pay special attention to your children's symptoms.
o If you are prescribed antibiotics, finish the entire course of therapy.
o If you work in a medical setting--even as a technician or clerk--be sure to seek vaccinations against hepatitis and other pathogens you may acquire from patients.
o If you're pregnant, take special care to avoid respiratory ailments such as influenza. Avoid contact with cat litter, which can harbor Toxoplasma, a microbe that can cause birth defects or even spontaneous abortion.
Tj
Posts: 192 | From Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Apr 2005
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lymewreck36
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4395
posted
I had lyme undiagnosed most of my marriage, and it was long before my husband had tick exposure that he started to show symptoms.
Symptoms improved after he got a dianosis and started treatment.
mary
Posts: 1034 | From North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2003
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MagicAcorn
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8786
posted
My doctor says no way, and I concur only because my hubba is clean. However, I did get lyme while pregnant and my little nut does have lyme.
So congenital transmission is proven, sexual transmission is not.
-------------------- Posts: 1279 | From In hiding | Registered: Feb 2006
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Geneal
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10375
posted
I have Lyme...was dx. in October of 2006.
My husband just was dx. in April of this year.
LLMD says the data does not support transmission
of Lyme via sexual relations, however he also says
He is not 100% convinved either.
I guess then the question would be
Who gave it to whom?????!!!!!!!!
Hugs,
Geneal
Posts: 6250 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Fwiw, my LLMD thinks transmission when you are on abx is highly unlikely. When not on abx, thinks it is possible.
Posts: 213 | From ohio | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
if chronic lyme is really a coinfection of varios bugs, is posible transmission of some, but not develop disease... i see some symptoms, but when not exist fatigue or a acute symptom everything can be overview
Posts: 108 | From spain eur | Registered: Apr 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
I have had Lyme for over 7 years. been with my wife for almost 7 years.
posted
I've been sick for almost 3 years and my partner has no Lyme symptoms (although he has terrible listening skills, ha ha ha).
That being said, my LLMD said there's a possibility that one of the reasons I'm still sick is that I keep transmitting diseases to my partner, his strong immune system fights them off, but he keeps giving them back to me.
He's one of those people who never gets sick and handles stress well, so I guess that could make sense. I wonder though, that if he's really been infected by me for 3 years, if he would be showing symptoms by now.
P
Posts: 449 | From Vermont | Registered: Nov 2004
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daystar1952
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Member # 3255
posted
BV...that's an interesting statement that if one is on antibiotics that it would probably be less likely fo someone infected to pass on Bb. I wonder if this would be because all the bugs leave the blood stream or other secretions and hide in the deep tissues of the body?
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
I contracted Lyme before I was married and have been married for 22 years. We use no protection and hubby is not infected as far as we know.
I think so many spouses are at the same places that it would be difficult to prove sexual transmission either way.
I have one symptomatic child who will be tested at my next LLMD appt. in May. She also was exposed to tick bites.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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canbravelyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9785
posted
We must remember the disparity in numbers between men and women infected with Lyme, when we're "signing in". I noticed so many of us are women who ostensibly have uninfected partners. It would be interesting to know how many men who are infected have uninfected women partners.
Best,
canbravelyme.
-------------------- For medical advice related to Lyme disease, please see an ILADS physician. Posts: 1494 | From Getting there... | Registered: Aug 2006
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heckyeah
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Member # 603
posted
I had lyme for at least 5 years (UNTREATED) before I met my husband. I was misdiagnosed with CFS/FM. He soon was diagnosed with CFS. We found out 5 years later that we both had Lyme.
I have NO doubt that if someone has been sick long enough for it to penetrate the tissues (Bb has been found in cervical fluid and semen) AND is not being treated with antibiotics then I'm SURE it can be transmitted...
So, if you were on antibiotics and having sex with your partner and they didn't get Lyme... OF COURSE THEY DIDN'T GET IT!! It's easy to kill Lyme in the blood stream... it's hard to totally kill cuz it hides in the tissues...
Jennifer
Posts: 1082 | From Upstate New York | Registered: Jan 2001
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by heckyeah: I had lyme for at least 5 years (UNTREATED) before I met my husband. I was misdiagnosed with CFS/FM. He soon was diagnosed with CFS. We found out 5 years later that we both had Lyme.
I have NO doubt that if someone has been sick long enough for it to penetrate the tissues (Bb has been found in cervical fluid and semen) AND is not being treated with antibiotics then I'm SURE it can be transmitted...
So, if you were on antibiotics and having sex with your partner and they didn't get Lyme... OF COURSE THEY DIDN'T GET IT!! It's easy to kill Lyme in the blood stream... it's hard to totally kill cuz it hides in the tissues...
Jennifer
HOW can you be "SURE" THAT is SO?
I am NOT on antibiotics. Rather on herbs. SO does that mean I can transmitt if for "SURE"?
Since it is in ALL liquids in our body, that means we should not KISS anyone either, right?
Don't eat out of the same dishes, unless washed with a disinfectant? NOR take a bath UNLESS tub is "treated"?
I could go on and on, but until they PROVE to me, it is so, I for one chose not to believe it.
janet thomas
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7122
posted
I believe I've had TBD for 20+ yrs. Untreated & undiagnosed. Course, I went to so many drs but no one had an answer.
I got it under control with a macrobiotic diet and bore a child whom I think is OK, after a WB from the local HMO lab and also MDL.
But my husband never got sick and we used no protection.
So, IMO, Lyme is not sexuallly transmitted. OR,..... maybe he has a really good immune system.
-------------------- I am not a doctor and this is not medical advice but only my personal experience and opinion. Posts: 2001 | From NJ | Registered: Mar 2005
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Melanie Reber
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Member # 3707
posted
We do know from research that other TBDs have been transmitted via sexual contact, exposure to body fluids, close contact, etc.
My question is always why NOT Borrelia? Absence of proof does not always equate proof of absence.
Until 100% proven otherwise, I will continue to consider all TBDs to be STDs as well. (yes, this is my opinion. As opinions go, it will not be accepted by everyone, but that is fine)
If anyone is not aware of the research that has been conducted re: congenital means...here you go.
Fetal:
Gestational Lyme borreliosis. Implications for the fetus. MacDonald AB. Rheum Dis Clin North Am, 15(4):657-77. 1989.
Autopsy and clinical studies have associated gestational Lyme borreliosis with various medical problems including fetal death, hydrocephalus, cardiovascular anomalies, neonatal respiratory distress, hyperbilirubinemia, intrauterine growth retardation, cortical blindness, sudden infant death syndrome, and maternal toxemia of pregnancy.
Borrelia burgdorferi in a newborn despite oral penicillin for Lyme borreliosis during pregnancy. Weber K, Bratzke HJ, Neubert U, Wilske B, Duray PH. Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal, 7:286-9. 1988.
Congenital infections and the nervous system. Bale JF Jr, Murph JR. Pediatr Clin North Am Aug;39(4):669-90 1992
Despite vaccines, new antimicrobials, and improved hygienic practices, congenital infections remain an important cause of death and long-term neurologic morbidity among infants world-wide. In addition, several other agents, such as the varicella zoster virus, human parvovirus B19, and Borrelia burgdorferi, can potentially infect the fetus and cause adverse fetal outcomes.
Maternal-fetal transmission of the Lyme disease spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi. Schlesinger PA, Duray PH, Burke BA, Steere AC, Stillman MT. Ann Intern Med. 1985 Jul;103(1):67-8. PMID: 4003991
"Transplacental infection by Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb), the agent of Lyme Borreliosis (LB), has recently been documented (L.E. Markowitz, et al; P.A. Schlesinger, et al). Fetal infection confirmed by culture has been reported by A.B. MacDonald (in press) from a highly endemic region (Long Island, NY).
We report a culture positive neonatal death occurring in California, a low endemic region. The boy was born by C-section because of fetal distress. He initially appeared normal. He was readmitted at age 8 days with profound lethargy leading to unresponsiveness. Marked peripheral cyanosis, systemic hypertension, metabolic acidosis, myocardial dysfunction, & abdominal aortic thrombosis were found. Death ensued. Bb was grown from a frontal cerebral cortex inoculation. The spirochete appeared similar to the original Long Island tick isolate. Silver stain of brain & heart was confirmatory of tissue infection.
The infant was the second born to a California native. The 20 m/o sibling was well. The mother had been having migratory arthralgias and malaise since experiencing horse fly & mosquito bites while camping on the Maine coast in 1971. The family was seronegative for LB by ELISA at Yale. Cardiolipin antibodies were also not found."
Stillbirth following maternal Lyme disease. MacDonald AB, Benach JL, Burgdorfer W. N Y State J Med, Nov;87(11):615-6 1987
The infectious origins of stillbirth. Goldenberg RL, Thompson C. Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2003 Sep; 189(3):861-73. 2003. PMID: 14526331
Toxoplasma gondii, leptospirosis, Listeria monocytogenes, and the organisms that cause leptospirosis, Q fever, and Lyme disease have all been implicated as etiologic for stillbirth.
Lyme disease during pregnancy. Markowitz LE, Steere AC, Benach JL, Slade JD, Broome CV. JAMA Jun 27;255(24):3394-6. 1986.
Of the 19 pregnancies, five had adverse outcomes, including syndactyly, cortical blindness, intrauterine fetal death, prematurity, and rash in the newborn. Adverse outcomes occurred in cases with infection during each of the trimesters. Although B burgdorferi could not be implicated directly in any of the adverse outcomes, the frequency of such outcomes warrants further surveillance and studies of pregnant women with Lyme disease.
Human fetal borreliosis, toxemia of pregnancy, and fetal death. MacDonald AB. Zentralbl Bakteriol Mikrobiol Hyg [A]. Dec; 263(1-2):189-200. 1986. PMID: 3554838
Tick-borne relapsing fever and pregnancy outcome in rural Tanzania. Jongen VH, van Roosmalen J, Tiems J, Van Holten J, Wetsteyn JC. Acta Obstet Gynecol Scand. Oct; 76(9):834-8. 1997. PMID: 9351408
The impact of tick-borne relapsing fever (TBRF) on pregnancy outcome was investigated in a case-control study of 137 pregnant women and 120 non-pregnant women infected with this condition and treated at a rural hospital in Tanzania's Tabora region during 1985-95. The risk of premature delivery during TBRF was 58%, with a perinatal mortality of 436 per 1000 births. Total pregnancy loss, including abortions, was 475 per 1000. The case-fatality rate was 1.5% in pregnant women compared with 1.7% in non-pregnant controls. The relapse rate was 3.6% in pregnant women and 1.7% in controls. Pregnant women with TBRF had higher densities of spirochetes than controls, and the risk of delivery during an attack was significantly correlated with increasing spirochete density and gestational age.
Infections in Obstetrics: Lyme disease during Pregnancy Helayne M. Silver, MD Infectious Disease Clinics of North America Vol 11 Number 1 1 March, 1997
The infant had severe congenital cardiac defects resulting in neonatal death at 39 hours of life. The neonatal autopsy revealed hypoplastic left side of heart and other cardiac anomalies. Spirochetes compatible with B. burgdorferi were found in the spleen, kidneys, and bone marrow; however, no inflammatory response to the organisms was seen.
Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I believe it is sexually transmitted. I went undiagnosed for probably 25 years so it seems reasonable that some belive their spouse or partner may not be infected. WE all don't get horribly sick with this infection. Some don't become chronic for years and years.
Our "problems" are so easily explained away until we become chronic. I personally know chronic patients and I know lyme infected patients that are going about their normal lives without pain or serious symtoms.
My apouse didn't think he had it,even though our son and myself had both been diagnosed, until he could barely walk down the stairs in the AM any longer. He was treated for 9 months and felt better so he stopped treatment. Typical man. He has done much better with treatment but then again I think his immune system is much stronger then mine or our son's. He never gets sick with any type of flu or cold.
Now that I understand the cognitive symtoms I would defintely say he still has it. So in the mean time, I'll continue to protect myself. I really don't need any additional bugs. Got enough already. For those of you who don't believe its sexually transmitted good luck with that.
Posts: 547 | From Maryland | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I have been to two LLMDs in the Bay Area and they both believe it is sexually transmitted. It is a caused by a spirochete just like syphilis is so if syphilis is sexually transmitted why would Lyme diesease not be?
I really wonder if while you are on antibiotics you can still pass it to another person or not because what research has been done on that subject - NONE - and I also wonder about kissing while on or off antibiotics. I would hate to give this disease to anyone else. Well I could think of one person but I would not want that karma so I will now go munch my Tibetan herbs that look like rabbit poop and think about something more pure like what else I can eat before I go to bed rather then kissing my two headed snake sibling (the thought sickens me) and passing on my old toxic spirochetes. Can a person who is already a parasite get parasites... I guess not.... even parasites just say no to some people......
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Hey hey Daystar check newbie links theres been lots of discussions on this subject.
My wife has lyme but she does not have any coinfections that we could find,but there is something different with her symptoms she has had swollen lymph glands and strange rash appear at the same time as lymph swelling on the back of her neck looked alot like this without all the the acompaning rash's just one spot like the biggest one in this picture with a little bumpiness added to just the swelled raised part no redness around it like this one.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
up daystar
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
Several llmds have told me that lyme is an STD based on their clinical experience. These are well known well respected llmds.
Posts: 925 | From California | Registered: Sep 2004
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LisaS
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10581
posted
So basically someone with lyme cannot eat anything but brocolli, sleep, drive, work, exercise, or have sex.
Can someone tell us what we are allowed to do?????
posted
Grope cabana boys while wearing thick plastic gloves and a hazmat suit?
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canbravelyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9785
posted
Tree - that rash that you posted...what were you told the "raised" element indicates?
The day after my 1st bicillin shot, I had a ring rash which had similar "raised" splotches...
-------------------- For medical advice related to Lyme disease, please see an ILADS physician. Posts: 1494 | From Getting there... | Registered: Aug 2006
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without all the the acompaning rash's just one spot like the biggest one in this picture with a little bumpiness added to just the swelled raised part no redness around it like this one.
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