Topic: Cites Lyme: MD Say They Know Best: Lay Off The WebMD
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
Doctors Say They Know Best: Lay Off The WebMD May 22, 2007 - 3:51pm By Tennille Tracy
Dr. Peter Gottesfeld has seen it so many times. An anxious patient suffering from aching muscles, throbbing joints, headaches and fatigue rushes into his office with a diagnosis in hand: Lyme disease. How does the patient know? A medical Web site said so.
``We can drive ourselves crazy sometimes,'' said Gottesfeld, a family doctor with a private practice in Westchester County, just north of New York City.
Indeed. Patients can also drive their doctors a little wacky, too. Gottesfeld said that about 99 percent of the time his patients were free of Lyme disease, which is transmitted through tick bites and can lead to problems with the heart and nervous system. Most, he said, merely had the flu or were exhausted. But still, about once a day, one of his patients will declare themselves a likely victim of Lyme disease, after having used the Internet to draw that conclusion.
That, says Gottesfeld and other doctors, is the double-edged sword of medical Web sites, which are attracting more and more readers around the country.
While sites like WebMD.com and MDAdvice.com can be great for people seeking research on an illness a doctor has already diagnosed, the sites are not always the best place to go for people seeking information on the cause of their coughs, aches, bumps and rashes. The sites, doctors say, are not precise and often create frustration, unnecessary worry and even paranoia.
Using the ``symptom checker'' on WebMD, for example, a 32-year-old female suffering from a sore throat could get the impression she has any one of 20 conditions, some of them rather severe. By indicating she has swollen glands and feels pain and discomfort in her throat, WebMD suggests she might have scarlet fever, tuberculosis or even thyroid cancer. WebMD also says she might just have allergies or strained muscles, but there's no indication that one condition is any more likely than the other.
Using MDAdvice.com, the same woman would be told she could have strep throat, hay fever or mumps.
``Information is a double-edged sword,'' Gottesfeld said. ``There are all kinds of things that can spark anxiety. This is just one more.''
By trying to make their own diagnoses using medical Web sites, patients are driving themselves crazy and quite unnecessarily so, many doctors say. This behavior is most damaging when it prevents people from seeking treatment.
WebMD officials insist their Web site, which attracts 35 million readers each month, is good medicine, as long as visitors use it as a resource in conjunction with professional care. The Web site's information is not the final word on anyone's condition, they say.
``Throughout the site, we try to make it clear that we're not a substitute for your health care provider,'' said Dr. Steven Zatz, executive vice president for professional services at WebMD. ``The site is designed to try to help patients and caregivers understand health issues.''
Photo: WebMD CEO Martin Wygod
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Geneal
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10375
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I hate to admit it, but I googled my symptoms.
Two things kept coming up consistently. Lyme and Lupus.
I knew I didn't have Lupus having a complete ANA panel done that was negative.....so...
My problem was finding a duck to test for it.
Hugs,
Geneal
Posts: 6250 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2006
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
same thing G. I even had the dang rash and they said "spider bite". looked on the web, and voila!! perfect em rash...
then i just had to get a knowledgeable doc to treat.
my doc has a fit when i mention the web, so i just tell him my symptoms anymore and hope he's diagnosing me correct.
i hate to admit i cheat tho. if i think it's yeast, (and it was!!), i pick up the most of what i think will definitely be yeast symptoms and add to it. i know, i know, but you have to do something sometimes, otherwise you don't get squat...
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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Vermont_Lymie
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Member # 9780
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quote:Originally posted by CaliforniaLyme: Doctors Say They Know Best: Lay Off The WebMD May 22, 2007 - 3:51pm By Tennille Tracy
Dr. Peter Gottesfeld has seen it so many times. An anxious patient suffering from aching muscles, throbbing joints, headaches and fatigue rushes into his office with a diagnosis in hand: Lyme disease. How does the patient know? A medical Web site said so.
``We can drive ourselves crazy sometimes,'' said Gottesfeld, a family doctor with a private practice in Westchester County, just north of New York City.
Indeed. Patients can also drive their doctors a little wacky, too. Gottesfeld said that about 99 percent of the time his patients were free of Lyme disease, which is transmitted through tick bites and can lead to problems with the heart and nervous system.
Photo: WebMD CEO Martin Wygod
And how does this doctor in Westchester know that 99 percent of the time his patients with fatigue, headaches, aching joints (and rashes?) are free of lyme -- does he give them a blood test?
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
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sometimesdilly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9982
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IMO, the key words being put into play here:
"we can drive ourselves crazy sometimes"
(by foolishly and needlessly worrying ourself into thinking we may have Lyme).
got it. this is the paternalistic, more round about version of --you are depressed, attention-seeking med-seeking malingering nutcases.
i see articles like this as part of a larger campaign to marginalize Lyme, to paint us as crazies and our llmds as irresponsible snake oil salesmen.
it is no coincidence that the primary disease mentioned here is Lyme.
(disgusted) dilly
Posts: 2507 | From lost in the maze | Registered: Aug 2006
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djf2005
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Member # 11449
posted
you know-
its only a matter of time until lyme is an epidemic. (its pretty close as is)
and once one of the judges that takes away llmds liscenses or one of the news reporters that scoffs at the severity of this deisease or one of the know it all docs we have all seen either get lyme or become directly affected by someone they know that will get lyme, their tune is sure to change
unfortunately, it is going to almost be necessary for people in high places to get this disease for it to be properly addressed.
it is my opinion that lyme is going to become so prevalant that the government and medical worlds are going to have to do SOMETHING about it.
something more than "here's your 2 weeks of ceftrixone" now youre better! hah!
god help us all
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
Michelle M
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Member # 7200
posted
This kind of crap really aggravates me.
Insecure doctors are SO intimidated by patients who bother to read and research about their condition. Tough cookies for them. What it does is serve to raise the bar -- forcing doctors to do some homework themselves and get off their high horses.
Oh, but wait. I should have listened to my learned neurologist, who uttered such gems as:
"Lyme disease is very rare here." (Yeah, in northern California, which is actually endemic.)
"Your EM rash is just reaction to tick saliva." (Why would anyone think that in the face of full-blown symptoms?)
"If ELISA is negative you cannot have lyme disease." (Duh, idiot.)
"If brain lesions do not resolve, then it cannot possibly be lyme." (Wrong - only about 50% of lyme lesions improve with treatment.)
"You have MS." (Nope, I have neuroborreliosis and babesia WA-1.)
Yep, reading the internet sure was a bad thing in my case. Considering I was CDC positive for lyme and positive for babesia WA-1, why, I'm sure I would have done just wonderfully on MS drugs, oblivious to the infection.
Any position that discourages acquiring knowledge is suspect.
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200
posted
Here's a neurologist who isn't an insecure idiot. He is one of the founders of the BrainTalk forums. This is a wonderful read, and a perfect time to drag it out!
quote:Originally posted by Tincup: That's right. If patients actually learn something...
Then the ducks may have to climb down from their pedestals where they've placed themself for so long.
Admit it duck-a-roos...
When PEOPLE get smart... it cuts into your $$.. your credibility... your freak-o power control... and kicks you right in the ego.
Also opens you up for intelligent QUESTIONS... OH MY...
And also for law suits!
Sooooooooooooooooooooooo..
Let's try to keep the public stupid and we will have MUCH more time to play golf and not have to bother with actually doing anything.
AMEN!!!
And if it weren't for the internet, some of us wouldn't have keep pushing doctors for a diagnosis. They would just sit back and say "you have MS, go home and die, theres nothing more we can do!"
Here is a doctor who knows he doesn't have all the answers and WELCOMES his patients to get informed, to keep up to date, to exchange knowledge.
Listen...this is a TEAM effort...God, the patient, the doctor...IN THAT ORDER.
I had a friend who "knew" something was wrong in her body years ago. She went from doctor to doctor (including...being sent to a shrink). FINALLY one doctor LISTENED...and tested.
At age 32, she had breast cancer. It was caught JUST in time.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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3greatkids
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Member # 3838
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We use to get MUCH better care,before the internet arrived.
Old timey docs,really knew their patients(until the insurance cos. stepped in and said,sorry only 2 visits/month).
Old Timey docs,would read and read and read,talk w/ their buddies,look and keep at it until they could help.Clinical Diagnosis was important.
Now these DUCKS can't even use their bird brains to investigate,read,get to the bottom of things.Yes,that clock is ticking and I have to hit the links!Positive vs. negative...no time for a clinical diagnosis.
Our TV station did a segment on Malaria yesterday.Malaria....for all of the summer seeking, fun lovers, going to exotic places.
Well,I went for a hike in my local park and got Babesia.Imagine that.Here in the states.....Babesia.
Thank goodness the internet helped me,my Dr.said I was reading too much on here and would convince myself I had a Brain Tumor.
It's crazy......we had better care before the internet.....with the internet, our healthcare system is quickly eroding.Healthcare providers=insurance companies,lawyers,drug companies,universities,and more lawyers.
Have you ever seen a system implode? A top heavy system does not work and will fall.
Posts: 1076 | Registered: Apr 2003
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During my 16 years of trying to get diagnosed by ducks..
One very popular duck here gave me an elisa test after I begged for a test after years of horrible neuro symptoms and getting a previous test from another duck..
My test was borderling but instead of going by my symptoms he told me "It looks like you had Lyme disease in the past but you no longer have it."
I live in a one horse town so I bumped into a woman after I was finally diagnosed by a LLMD. She told me she went to the same duck I had and her elisa was positive for LD.
The duck told her just to go home because the treatment for Lyme disease is worse then the disease. Luckily her friends talked her into going else where.
The amazing part is this doctor thinks he is intelligent and helping the poor and the community. He has his himself convinced of that.
When his clinic sent out pleas for donations I wrote him back and said if you really want to help the "community" you might get a LLMD on your staff because you really messed up on my diagnosis and caused me a lot of harm. You had numerous chances to diagnois me over the years.
Of course I never heard back from him and the fool has a giant ego and thinks himself to be very progressive... a regular saint.
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caat
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>>>Maybe the doctors should be reading online. They might learn a few things!!
Hahaha! they DO.
I get a very distinct and clear intuition that a lot of doctors who care lurk around here on lymenet Oh yes, I beleive they do. I beleive some even post occasionally. (not me- I am NOT a doc).
Stay off the web. Hahahahaha. If I had stayed off the web I'd be DEAD by now.
Hahahahaha! BEWARE! The web is the new Gutenberg press!
I wonder if a pr company paid for THAT one.
I have to say... I really do lie awake at night sometimes laughing about this sort of reaction to open access to previously priveleged information. HAHAHAHA!!
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
When doctors fail patients, and they do; According to a study by consumer advocate Ralph Nayder, 300,000 people are killed by doctors every year in the U.S.
Patients look elsewhere when their doctor fails to offer any condition that might cause their illness They might get a wastebasket diagnosis from their doctor like depression some syndrome or some phobia. As for the internet some of the sites I've visited are , John Hopkins, The Mayo Clinic, The Cleveland Clinic, Hannamen, Harvard, etc. The internet has allot of misinformation but so does my doctor; It's been acknowledged that about 50% of what's being practiced as standard medical diagnosis and treatment will be proven wrong in the future.
[ 27. May 2007, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Al ]
Posts: 789 | From CT, | Registered: Jun 2006
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Greatcod
Unregistered
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Doctors are not a whole lot smarter than the rest of us, but many of them seem to think they are. I think they are very threatened by informed patients, and with Lyme by people who know more than the doctor-duck. I think too that many doctors enjoy the sense that they have mysterious powers, quite out of the ordinary, beyond our understanding. Ask them a question that they can't answer, and "poof", the bubble bursts.
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Marnie
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Member # 773
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Scary Cave, but how true!
The really good doctors (caring, listening, up to date) are few and far between.
In a hospital with 250 beds...of the doctors on staff (many), there are only about 5 that nurses themselves would go to for treatment.
Ask any nurse.
Much of our knowledge in the medical field happens AFTER we graduate...
when we SPECIALIZE.
I wonder if that doctor feels we should also move every medically related book out of libraries...or into a separate room accessible only to doctors?
Hey...let's all write magazines and ask the editors to stop please printing all new medical information because it makes people wonder if they have this or that disease!
We NEED to keep the public dumb/ignorant?
That doctor should be "dethroned"!
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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Oh yes, I beleive they do. I beleive some even post occasionally. (not me- I am NOT a doc).
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