clairenotes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10392
posted
Whenever I am not feeling well and I take a hot bath to sweat some of the toxins out, I always feel better. So we have been thinking of breaking down and getting a far infrared sauna to help with detox.
But I have heard arguments against saunas because metals not detoxed out from the skin might redistribute into other more undesireable areas such as the brain, and metals may be an issue for us.
Can anyone elaborate on this or provide any opinions based on personal experience? Adverse effects or worsening of symptoms? Positive effects?
Thank you,
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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Vermont_Lymie
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Member # 9780
posted
Hi Claire,
I use a regular old infrared (heat) sauna as often as possible; although marnie and others say the far infrared saunas are better for lymies. The saunas make me feel better. I think they improve circulation and help ensure the abx are well distributed.
I have not heard that argument that they redistribute metals, but it seems you could take another approach for metals, such as detoxing with chlorella, an oral chelator like the one Biopure sells (phospholipid exchange), or other binders. Check out gigi's old posts for info on metal detoxing.
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I have a far infrared sauna at home (heard they are the best) and I used to use it about 4 days a week. I couldn't really tell if I was feeling better or not.
Then a LLMD (not mine) told me that I was using it too much, and to only use it once a week.
So confusing!
-------------------- "Never underestimate the power of a few committed people to change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead Posts: 290 | From New York | Registered: May 2007
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
WOW! My LLMD wants me to use mine at least 30 minutes DAILY!! Maybe your LLMD thought it would cause too much of a herx.
My LLMD says it helps to chelate the metals.
There is a huge difference between far infrared and traditional. I have sat in a traditional sauna a couple times since purchasing my far infrared ... there is a benefit to the heat, but it's not as detoxing.
The studies have shown that 80-85% of your sweat in a far infrared is water, but 97% of your sweat is water in a traditional one.
You can feel the difference in the sweat between the two.
I don't know how much it's helping me because I started it when I started everything else. I know that towards the end of a herx one time I sat in it for an hour. I sweat out some sticky stuff, and the herx ended completely leaving me feeling much better.
I love mine and highly recommend them.
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
First the Hg issue...the why it is not being removed...
NORMALLY our bile salts remove heavy metals via HDL.
Several of the nutrients to make bile salts are deficient...esp. choline, serine and phosphorus (lecithin...fat emulsifier)
VLDL not being released because glucagon (and ultimately insulin) is upregulated in gluconeogenesis. Glucagon inhibits HMG CoA reductase as does Mg.
Now we must depend on getting amino acids to make cholesterol to form our OWN cell walls and to make the myelin sheath from our diets .
VLDL -> LDL -> HDL to remove heavy metals.
Very low density lipoproteins to low density lipoproteins to high density lipoproteins to carry heavy metals out.
Problem...LDL is "oxidized" and becomes rancid. Doesn't make it to HDL.
Due to "oxidative stress".
Too many damaging free radicals because our #1 antioxidant, glutathione, is low.
"Because all other antioxidants depend upon the presence of glutathione to function properly, scientists call it 'the master antioxidant.' "
Glutathione needs *cysteine*, *glycine* and glutamate to be made.
It controls many other antioxidants.
Bb's zinc fingers are made of *cysteine*, histidine and zinc.
NORMALLY selenium removes Hg, but...selenium is dependent on glutathione...the MASTER antioxidant.
Cysteine and glycine are too low...glutamate/glutamic acid...is thru the roof.
Soooo...in steps #2 antioxidant...melatonin (tired) from serotonin...
Do you need all the documented info. on far infrared? WHY it works? Do you want to try to understand the whys and the hows?
Need to use far infrared daily. Be sure to drink a GOOD mineral water while in the sauna -such as Pure Life by Nestle or Voss water (artesian, glass bottle) if you are wealthy. Do NOT get the flavored kind of Pure Life! Artifical sugar reasons...READ LABELS.
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clairenotes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10392
posted
Thank you for all of the replies. Mostly I hear only good things about the use of saunas.
I did read Gigi's posts awhile back regarding possible problems with the recirculating of metals and far infrared saunas. We are taking chlorella to help bind any free-floating metals, and have been doing some foot detox baths.
I think I just don't know when it would be considered safe to use far infrared saunas if there is a timing thing. And many people here seem to be fine with daily use, so it is a little confusing.
Getting the metals out safely is my major concern and it would seem that if they could be released through the skin, that would be the best scenario.
Marnie -- I always feel a lot better when I remember to take lecithin. I think it has a strong impact on my health. The same goes for melatonin with no more fogginess the next day.
It sounds like you are saying that we need cholesterol to remove metals but LDL (lousy cholesterol ) is oxidized and so the proper chain of events is interrupted -- LDL to HDL (good cholesterol) to remove metals. LDL is oxidized because we do not have enough glutathione?
I am taking a whey protein for glutathione precursors, and I think that is helping too, as is a lipid formula for good cholesterol.
I think things are better with my internal detox systems, so to speak, but I have reason to believe that there are still some stores of metals hidden away (and maybe not so hidden away).
Any information you provide is always appreciated, i.e., the why's and wherefore's of sauna use, etc.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I also heard NAC helps with the production of glutathione???
-------------------- "Never underestimate the power of a few committed people to change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead Posts: 290 | From New York | Registered: May 2007
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ByronSBell 2007
Unregistered
posted
A sauna is great for detoxing but you do not need to do it everyday (in my opinion) bcause that is losing alot of electrolites and minerals being lost.
Saunas can also cause herx reactions because the bacteria have a very hard time surviving in temps from 100-104 degrees F and all the lyme bacteria die at 106 degrees F in a 24hr period but then you would die as well... I plan to use this treatment when I get close to remission to get all the last ones!
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
My daughter loves our infrared sauna. We just got the portable tent. She does 30 minutes and listens to music. I think it's very relaxing for her. Then she takes a shower or bath.
If you get the portable tent kind, remember, they size them to little tiny Japanese people. Those people know how to use a sweatbox!
My daughter is 5' even, and we got the small tent. I'm 5'5" and pretty much max it out.
It was a good investment. I think it will be something she will incorporate into her lifestyle.
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
It takes a LOT of "negative charges" (heat is one form) to deplete the minerals.
Which is WHY it is VITAL to drink a good bottled water (mineral) when doing saunas.
Claire...you are catching on...esp. with re: to lecithin and melatonin and chorella!
Whey protein...excellent!
Yes..about LDL oxidized, turns rancid, because glutathione is too low. Too many very damaging free radicals. Too much "oxidative stress". Can be countered in ways other than supplements:
Surprisingly...oscillations! (Steady fast side to side movements).
Our astronauts return to earth with LOW PFK levels (enzyme that controls glycolysis...also being used up in lyme) and they are anemic. They suffer from oxidative stress while in outer space...don't ask why...I don't know. HOWEVER...they are using WBV (whole body vibration)devices (simply stand on them) to combat this...it leads to more muscle and stronger bones. More muscle = more mitochondria. Muscle cells have a lot of powerhouses per cell. Stronger bones = Ca stays put.
As we age, we make less melatonin (#2 powerful antioxidant).
Curious that as we age...we are able to recall so many old stored memories.
Bb can NOT grow in gelatin...another COMPLETE PROTEIN...full of the amino acids (building blocks of protein).
This is too hard on our kidneys. Proteins are acidic. Can go into kidney failure on proteins and fats alone.
We need an alkaline sugar, one that Bb does NOT use (it uses many forms), but we CAN.
Is it dextrose(d-glucose - delta glucose)?
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
What do people think of the smaller FIR saunas in which your head is sticking out while you use them?
Either the stand up kind (with your head popping out of the top) or the cylindrical half-tube kind that you lie down in with your head sticking out one end?
I would like to hear from people who have used either of those types. i don't have the space for the full "room type" wooden FIR sauna.
- Andrew
PS - Marnie, is D-Glucose the same as the D-Ribose you've mentioned before?
Posts: 443 | From The Wild West | Registered: Jan 2002
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CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
I am thinking of getting one too, but wasn't sure I believed that the tent kind were of quality, plus it doesn't get your head! Can people chime in here with thoughts on which ones to buy?
I would also like to hear more about whey protein/precursor to glutathione...can people talk about that, dose/brand, etc?
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
I love my electric light sauna. It has had the best effect on me of any Lyme treatment that I have done thus far. Saunaing takes awhile to work into, but now I sit in my sauna twice a day for 45 minutes each time
If you would like more great information, a great book on this is Dr. Wilson's "Sauna Therapy". He also explains how to build saunas yourself, which is what we did. It cost us less than a hundred dollars.
Detoxing with a sauna is fabulous. It causes reactions, but it is well worth it. Let me know if you have questions!
Posts: 204 | From Wyoming | Registered: Feb 2003
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sixgoofykids
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Member # 11141
posted
Gena, my LLMD has me on NAC to help with glutathione.
He also has me taking extra magnesium since I take one daily.
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clairenotes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10392
posted
I like NAC for glutathione production and feel that it has really helped me also. But there has been some disagreement about its' use for the exact same reason for not using saunas -- risk of displacing metals (another timing thing).
Still wondering about timing with saunas and how that is determined, and/or how detrimental it is. Again, it seems that mostly everyone is doing well.
Regarding whey protein, I take Paleomeal by Designs for Health. It is a little pricy but I reason that I don't have to eat anything else for breakfast, except perhaps some fruit or an avocado.
There are other brands or formulas that are probably equally good. Here is a discussion on whey where people chime in on their favorite brands:
Building a sauna is an excellent idea! It seems that it can't be that difficult. But my husband does not have the time right now to commit to a project like this - we might be waiting til Xmas. Not sure about makes/models of saunas, yet. Still researching.
I definitely agree that water and mineral replacement is crucial when using a sauna. I think it may be an individual thing with regard to how long and how often we use it with some direction from an LLMD or ND, etc. Some of us might be able to tolerate more time, some less, etc.
Gelatin is anti-Bb? An anti-microbial?? With all that sugar???
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
As I understand it D-ribose (a five, not six, carbon sugar) -> D-glucose and D-galactose.
The MAJOR electrolytes of the body are: potassium (K), sodium (Na), Calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg). These are the big players, though we need other minerals in lesser amts. too. I have put these in "reactive" order.
Obviously, Ca is our most abundant mineral/electrolyte.
Gelatin is a complete protein (ALMOST)...amino acids.
I'm not talking about Jello.
Knox original gelatin...O grams carbs per serving.
While I have read that during wartime when meat was too expensive, persons substituted gelatin...it contains 9 essential amino acids, but lacks tryptophan (to make serotonin to convert to melatonin).
Here's what gelatin contains from one source:
"Properties
Gelatin is a vitreous, brittle solid that is faintly yellow to white and nearly tasteless and odorless. It contains 84-90% protein, 1-2% mineral salts and 8-15% water.
Gelatin is a foodstuff and not a food additive. Consequently it has no "E" number.
Protein quality of gelatin
Gelatin contains 9 of the amino acids essential for humans.
For daily nutrition, the amino acid composition of gelatin is of little importance, because normally the intake of gelatin generally takes place together with other proteins such as meat, potatoes and cereals.
Classic experiments demonstrate however that, with the addition of gelatin, the biological value of mixtures can be increased.
For example, the addition of gelatin to beef results in an increase of the biological value from 92 to 99.
Therefore, gelatin can complete and increase the amino acid composition of other protein sources.
Gelatin also appears to be beneficial to athletes for muscle growth and metabolism, as it contains lysine, which is important for muscle growth and arginine a precursor of creatine, an amino acid important for the energy metabolism of muscle cells.
Gelatin as a fat substitute
Today many of us consume too many calories in our daily diet. Therefore demand for low or fat-free products is continuously increasing. This is a dilemma for modern food-designers because fat is an important factor influencing taste in your foods.
In this context the sensory quality of gelatin is of great importance. The melting-point of gelatin resembles the body temperature of human beings. Thus the melting of gelatin causes a rich mouth feel that is far superior to other fat-substitutes.
By using gelatin as a fat substitute, it is possible to reduce the energy content of food without any negative effects on taste.
Dietetic properties
Many illnesses in Western industrial nations are caused by malnutrition or constant overeating. Approximately one third of the population is overweight, resulting in high-blood pressure, diabetes, upsets in fat metabolism or gout. Being overweight can also be a factor in the development of arteriosclerosis and cardiac problems.
Gelatin can assist in weight reduction programs because it allows the creation of nutritious, yet low calorie dishes.
Gelatin contains no fat, sugar, purines or cholesterol and it can bind large quantities of water which helps impart a "fuller" feeling after a meal or it can be used to replace high calorie content binders like cream, egg yolk or starchy products.
Gelatin can also be used to create a nutritious and varied dietary plan for patients and convalescents. It is highly nutritious yet easily digestible and can be used in liquid foods which are palatable and easy to absorb.
Treatment of osteoarthritis
There is also evidence that eating gelatin regularly is beneficial in the treatment of joint conditions.
Recent investigations by Prof. Milan Adam from Prague have shown that gelatin therapy is effective when administered early and continuously for at least two months at a level of 10g daily.
The therapy has to be repeated at intervals. The recommended dose can be integrated in the normal daily protein intake and, as gelatin protein resembles body protein collagen, no toxic side effects are known or anticipated.
Gelatin protein contains a high portion of the hydroxyproline, hydrosylysine and arginine. Together with the sulphur-containing amino acid L-cystine these amino acids are the essential building blocks for synthesis of collagen and proteoglycans in cartilage.
It is believed that an optimal availability of such amino acids can prevent the degeneration of cartilage in arthrosis.
This positive effect of gelatin is confirmed by the results of recent therapy-studies and experiments. Investigations to improve the condition of rough and broken finger-nails and the texture of hair have also shown that the regular consumption of gelatin has a positive effect."
posted
You just have to spill on how to build a sauna for less than 100.00. My husband is not going to be happy but I really want him to do this>
I have been curious about how much the utility cost would be on such a thing.
Posts: 347 | From WV | Registered: Jan 2007
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clairenotes
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posted
The literature I read said costs for running a 30 minute session averaged 10-15 cents. Hope this is accurate.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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clairenotes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10392
posted
Gelatin sounds quite amazing, Marnie.
I use avocados for my comfort food and have recently been adding back into my diet coconut milk mixed with some blueberries/bananas.
I know this is probably exactly what you don't want us to do... i.e. eat fats, per the article. But these are 'good' fats and for those of us who need to gain weight, I think they can be beneficial. They help assauge my cravings for dairy because of their textures.
I will try it and see how I feel. We need more amino acids and I like the simplicity of this.
Thank you for the information.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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GiGi
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Member # 259
posted
D-Ribose is insulin dependent. D-Galactose is not insulin dependent. That is a great advantage.
Gelatin used to be a favorite in the fifties and maybe sixties. But now I shy away from animal gelatin which is tough to do because most supplements are wrapped in (animal) gelatin capsules.
posted
I have had great success with hot baths and steam sauna. Only problem is, recently, I have started to get itchy skin if I do them every day, or even every other day. Not sure why I have become sensitive to them. I used to take a really hot bath almost every night. Can't do it anymore because of the itch.
Posts: 261 | From Washington | Registered: Oct 2002
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
From the website re gelatin above:
"Summary
The raw materials used in gelatin production come only from animals inspected by vets and passed fit for human consumption. All GMIA members are ISO 9000 certified which ensures that the origin of all raw materials used can be traced. Apart from the inherent safety of the raw materials, gelatin is a highly refined, purified product, manufactured by a sophisticated process which would provide additional safeguards if they were required. This includes several production stages which both serve to physically remove contaminants and also provide a destructive effect on the BSE agent if it were conceivably present. The World Health Organization has concluded that gelatin is safe to eat. All GMIA manufacturers exclusively use raw material from USDA or CFIA registered establishments."
Really?????????
I do scratch my head while I am saying this.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
"D-ribose insulin dependent."
Not quite, according to my research.
Meanwhile scramble to research prolactin ...why it is likely low (what nutrient is missing) and the impact on T cells, etc.
Curious that it is in IMMEDIATE trials to "spontaneously restore the myelin sheath".
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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clairenotes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10392
posted
Have been away for a few days, but wanted to get back here and comment on the last few posts:
I think I might stay away from gelatin for now, Marnie. In searching my memory, I think I remember now that it is derived from horses hooves?? Not sure I want to take the risk of more microbes, until I can do more research.
But I really appreciate all of your efforts as well as Gigi's. We are all very blessed to have both of you here providing us with information.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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sparkle7
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Member # 10397
posted
I tried a far infrared sauna once. It really felt great & I thought it was going to be a good addition to my regimine BUT I am taking doxycycline... This antibiotic makes you "photosensitive". Hence, I ended up with a kind of sunburn a few days later. I had little painful bumps on my face & it felt like a sunburn. It passed in a few days. I'd like to use the far infrared sauna again when I'm off the doxy. So, be aware if you're on abx that say to stay out of the sun.
Also- I thought of buying one of those tent style far infrared saunas but I realized that it's good to have your face & head inside the sauna. I don't know for sure but it seems that it's a very good idea to have your head inside where the heat is since alot of heat escapes from your head area (like in the winter, the reason it's good to wear a hat). It seems like it defeates the purpose to not have your head inside the sauna.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Serum levels of glucose, insulin, and C-peptide during long-term D-ribose administration in man.
D-ribose was given orally and/or intravenously to nine healthy subjects at doses ranging from 83.3 to 222.2 mg/kg per hour for at least four hours.
The serum ribose level increased in a dose-dependent manner to maximum concentrations of 75 to 85 mg/dl.
The serum glucose level decreased after the beginning of continuous ribose administration and was reduced as long as ribose was being administered.
The oral or intravenous administration of 166.7 mg/kg per hour of ribose resulted in a 25% decrease in serum glucose.
Higher intravenous doses of ribose did not provoke a further decrease in serum glucose concentration.
Oral administration of 166.7 mg/kg per hour led to an increase in serum insulin concentrations from a mean of 8.4 (range 6.4-11.5) to 10.4 (range 6.3-15.4) microU/ml (p less than 0.05).
In contrast, intravenous administration did not change serum insulin concentrations significantly.
The serum c-peptide concentration remained unchanged regardless of treatment.
We conclude that the variations in plasma insulin concentrations do not account for the observed decrease in mean serum glucose concentrations accompanying D-ribose administration.
PMID: 1901925
Strange!
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) is oxidized and so the proper chain of events is interrupted -- LDL to HDL (good cholesterol) to remove metals. LDL is oxidized because we do not have enough glutathione? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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