Topic: The difference between bacterioSTATIC and bacteriCIDAL
Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
I have had most of my success with Minocycline and Doxycycline which caused me to herx so bad that I ended up in the ER. At that time I did a ton of research on Minocycline and learned that Mino doesn't work just like we generally think many antibiotics do. I couldn't for the life of me remember why though. Then I stumbled on this from a link in one of Cave's post.
Minocycline doesn't kill directly but it inhibits or slows it's growth. It is a bacterio static.The immune system is then allowed to do what it should, and kill it. Bactericidals actually do the killing.
I would think there would be a far less chance of bacteria becoming immune to bacteriostatics since they don't typically kill directly but alter the situation so that pathogens can not continue to reproduce as rapidly.
I would think this would be far less killing of the good stuff as our immune system already sees that stuff as welcome. They may be inhibited a little bit, but not killed.
This is what Wikipedia says about bacteriostatics:
quote: Bacteriostatic antibiotics inhibit growth and reproduction of bacteria without killing them; killing is done by bactericidal agents. Bacteriostatic agents must work with the immune system to remove the microorganisms from the body. However, there is not always a precise distinction between them and bactericides; high concentrations of most bacteriostatic agents are also bactericidal, whereas low concentrations of bacteriocidal agents are only bacteriostatic.
This explains so much in my case. I have used ONLY minute doses of Minocycline, and I herx terribly. It has always seemed that for some time AFTER stopping the antibiotics I keep herxing for some times as long as 3-4 weeks. I have suspected that it was my own immune system working on it's own. After the lagging herx,I always feel better then before I took the abx.
If the pathogens are visible to our immune system do you think they ever become immune to our system which is capable of changing and killing something different as needed? This is assuming that your immune system is still functioning.
[ 16. August 2007, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Jellybelly ]
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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Vermont_Lymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9780
posted
These are great questions. I do not have the answer, but want to add that, sometimes it depends on the concentration/dosage whether an abx is bacteriostatic or at higher concentrations, bacteriocidal. My understanding is that amoxy, and perhaps doxy, are bacteriostatic at the lower dosages, and -cidal at the higher.
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tailz
Unregistered
posted
I'm like you in that my biggest herx recently has been with minocycline. My second biggest was with Larium. I'm not sure what that means I have though, since mino works on even some forms of malaria.
But my doctor explained it this way - our immune systems were not designed to kill pathogens that are in motion.
Some of these antibiotics slow the motion of these microorganisms down significantly enough to be detected by the immune system (bacteriostatic) and some bring the organisms to a halt by killing them (bacteriocidal).
Either way, the immune system is allowed to do its thing - clean up, so to speak - and develop antibodies to bits and pieces of the bugs.
He explained this is why people often start testing positive for these infections only AFTER antibiotic therapy is initiated. The organisms were in so much motion that our immune systems could not develop the necessary antibodies to kill the bugs or even prove we had them.
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Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
This helps me to understand "why" I have possibly done pretty well with micro doses of the Mino. People would tell me I wasn't herxing, because the dose was far to low to kill.
But that isn't the primary way in which Mino works, it can kill at high concentrations though. It also kills me (Doxy experience) and all kinds of other good stuff.
Sooooo, it would seem that I was herxing due to what my own immune system was doing, and that is posibly why I continue to herx for quite some time after stopping.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
what if our immune system is not capable of killing the bugs becuase it is weak? my cd57 immunoglobins was a litte low. Then wouldn't we need the abx which kills the bugs? Jenin
I don't have any answers, but it makes sense, I also keep herxing even when antiobiotics get changed or stopped; it's hard to distinguish if your are still herxing or relapsing because the dose got lower.
To Jelly.... -love your lyme name-: How many mg is your "micro" dosage of monocycline? I suppose to start this one soon.
Thanks, Lymster in WA
Posts: 303 | From WA | Registered: Jul 2004
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