LymeNet Flash: Poll: Babesiosis Tx w/a Tetracycline (Doxy/Mino) + Atovaquone (Mepron/Malarone)

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»	LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Poll: Babesiosis Tx w/a Tetracycline (Doxy/Mino) + Atovaquone (Mepron/Malarone)

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Topic: Poll: Babesiosis Tx w/a Tetracycline (Doxy/Mino) + Atovaquone (Mepron/Malarone)

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

Has anyone besides me had a treatment failure while taking a combination of Doxy OR Mino (or other Tetracycline) & Atovaquone (Malarone or Mepron)?

If you had no success with the above Tx combo, what doses were you taking?

If you had success with a combination of the above, what doses were you taking and were you also taking another antiprotozoal, such as artemisinin, another ABX, or any other Meds?

Your responses are greatly appreciated. I plan to bring this info with me to my LLMD appt and possibly use it to back up a complaint I recently sent to the FDA regarding GSK's prescribing information.

I believe GSK is aware that Tetracycline ABX reduce the blood concentration of Atovaquone by 40%, likely resulting in Tx failure. This is listed in the Rx info for Malarone, but not Mepron. I have had their Scientific Research department concur with this conclusion.

I just wasted 2 months taking that expensive goop, for no apparent reason & I'm ticked! [Mad]

Not to mention pretty much flushing over $1600 down the toilet and having my Tx thrown off course! [cussing]

Thanks in advance for your anticipated assistance. All input is greatly appreciated!
[Big Grin]

[ 19. August 2007, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: AliG ]

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797

posted

My daughter suffered through five months of zithromax and mepron with heparin.

I can say the heparin made a difference in her blood.

The combination may have done some good, but she was worse off after five months, so she dropped it and went to minocycline.

After two weeks of only taking 50mg twice a week, I can see a difference.

May go back on the heparin later.

She hasn't really tried artmesinin. We have it, but she felt so crappy, why add one more thing?

Kelly

Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006 | IP: Logged |

nancyf723
Member
Member # 7505

posted

Ali
I took Mepron & Zith for 6 months in 06, symptoms returned and I'm taking Malarone & Biaxin now. Have had progress, but it's very slow.
Good luck with your mission, that drug is nasty and expensive.
Nancy

Posts: 69 | Registered: Jun 2005 | IP: Logged |

TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552

posted

I read something about this in the babs book. One doc states that doxy significantly reduces mepron levels. My LLMD has me on doxy and mepron.

I found this:
CAT.INIST
Titre du document / Document title
Potentiation of the antimalarial activity of atovaquone by doxycycline against Plasmodium falciparum in vitro
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
YEO A. E. T. (1) ; EDSTEIN M. D. (1) ; SHANKS G. D. (2) ; RIECKMANN K. H. (1) ;
Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
(1) Army Malaria Research Unit, Liverpool Military Area, NSW 2174, AUSTRALIE
(2) US Army Medical Research Unit Kenya, Unit 64109, Box 401, APO AE 09831-4109, ETATS-UNIS

R�sum� / Abstract
The effect of doxycycline, obtained from human volunteers administered doxycycline, on the minimum inhibitory concentration (MIC) of atovaquone was determined against the K1 and FC27 isolates of Plasmodium falciparum in vitro. Doxycycline concentrations ranging from 0.10-1.18 μg/ml added to atovaquone produced MIC ratios [atovaquone + doxycycline/atovaquone alone] ranging from 0.38 to 0.70. These results suggest that the antimalarial activity of atovaquone is potentiated by doxycycline. Additionally, these drugs may be rational partners for the treatment and prophylaxis of falciparum malaria.
Revue / Journal Title
Parasitology research (Parasitol. res.) ISSN 0932-0113 CODEN PARREZ
Source / Source
1997, vol. 83, no5, pp. 489-491 (14 ref.)
Langue / Language
Anglais

Editeur / Publisher
Springer, Berlin, ALLEMAGNE (1987) (Revue)

Mots-cl�s anglais / English Keywords
In vitro ; Potentiation ; Biological activity ; Antimalarial ; Atovaquone ; Doxycycline ; Parasite ; Pathogenic ; Plasmodium falciparum ; Parasiticid ; Sporozoa ; Protozoa ;
Mots-cl�s fran�ais / French Keywords
In vitro ; Potentialisation ; Activit� biologique ; Antipaludique ; Atovaquone ; Doxycycline ; Parasite ; Pathog�ne ; Plasmodium falciparum ; Antiparasitaire ; Sporozoa ; Protozoa ;
Mots-cl�s espagnols / Spanish Keywords
In vitro ; Potencializaci�n ; Actividad biol�gica ; Antipal�dico ; Atovacuona ; Doxiciclina ; Par�sito ; Pat�geno ; Plasmodium falciparum ; Antiparasitario ; Sporozoa ; Protozoa ;
Localisation / Location
INIST-CNRS, Cote INIST : 5859, 35400006566625.0130

Also this,
http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/full/69/2/179
Additional in vitro studies have identified doxycycline and proguanil (biguanide), but not its non-biguanide metabolite cycloguanil or pyrimethamine (non-biguanide dihydrofolate reductase inhibitor), as synergistic partners of atovaquone.6,7 Clinical studies confirmed the in vitro results with high cure rates for atovaquone-proguanil and atovaquone-doxycycline combinations, but not atovaquone-pyrimethamine.5

Have you asked your LLMD about this?

Terry

Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

Thanks for the studies, Terry. [Smile]

I had already read them & they sound great, don't they?

Herein lies the problem. Those studies are in vitro and they are controlling the level of Doxy & atovoquone.

In vivo, the plasma concentrations are reduced and therefore a higher dosage of atovoquone would be needed to obtain the same level used in vitro.

It should work well if the blood plasma conentration is adequate.

I haven't asked LLMD yet. I'm going on Tuesday & I'm hoping to be prepared to make my case as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Thanks for bringing these up because I'm sure the in vitro/in vivo needs to be addressed. [Big Grin]

May I ask, how much Mepron are you taking and are you taking anything else?

[confused]

(for anyone who doesn't already know this:
In vivo= in the body
In vitro= in a test tube or petri dish)

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552

posted

Thanks for bringing this subject up since I've been meaning to address it ever since I read that this could be a problem in the babs book. I'm paying a huge amount of money for mepron and I can't afford to stay on it for years at over a $1,000 a month.

I didn't find any studies that showed that mepron levels are lowered by doxy. Have you found anything?

The babs book states that mepron levels should be measured because they are all over the place - too low in some and too high in others. Have you had yours measured?

I'm taking 1 teas 2X per day, 250 mg zith 2X per day and going back on doxy 200 mg 2X per day.

Terry

Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

I'm having trouble locating studies, I don't think GSK has published them?

I just found this:

OFFICE OF CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY AND BIOPHARMACEUTICS
BPCA SUMMARY REVIEW

excerpt:
�� CL/F (clearance of atovaquone)in patients receiving atovaquone concomitantly with tetracycline was 52.9% higher as compared with patients who did not receive tetracycline

I have seen that Johns Hopkins University Hospital notes the interaction in it's Poc-it guide. I've seen it noted in quite a few locations besides the manufacturer's literature on Malarone. I just can't seem to find actual study documentation. It's very frustrating! That's why I'm taking a survey.

PS- 1 tsp. 2x/day was what helped with Zith, but not with Doxy. I'm wondering if 1 1/2 tsp 2x/day might have worked. That dose exceeds GSKs maximum recommendation (I asked GSK) What to do? [Roll Eyes]

[ 17. August 2007, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: AliG ]

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200

posted

Two courses, three months each, of:

Ghastly goop (a/k/a Mepron), twice daily
250 mg Zithromax, twice a day
200 mg of Artemisinin, THREE TIMES a day (yeah, OW.)

Relapsed initially after a couple months.

Don't know whether it's gone at this point, but suspect it is not.

(Babesia WA-1, that is.)

Maybe the pharmaceutical company will refund our money.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Michelle

Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005 | IP: Logged |

lymednva
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9098

posted

I'll be interested to hear what you learn.

I'm on Mepron, Artemisinin, Biaxin, Doxy, and Plaquenil right now. Sound like enough to you?!

--------------------
Lymednva

Posts: 2407 | From over the river and through the woods | Registered: Apr 2006 | IP: Logged |

savebabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9847

posted

Try adding septra to the mix!!

This helps increase the effectiveness of the mepron, and it will also hit bart at the same time.

Posts: 1603 | From ny | Registered: Aug 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

Hey Michelle! [Big Grin]

Sorry, I doubt you'll see a refund. Zith is a macrolide & not known to decrease the BPC. The most common Tetras I've seen here are Doxy & Mino.

I'm really surprised that combo won't kick it. Have you been taking the Mepron with a fatty meal (24gms fat)?

I know Tutu had success with the Art. Maybe you've got a different combo of coinfections??

Lymednva,

That sounds like it should kill everything (hopefully NOT YOU [Eek!]

!)! I'd think maybe the artemisinin would cover the decrease in BPC of Mepron since it's also antiprotozoal. Please let me know how it goes! [Big Grin]

Savebabe,

Septra, you say? Sounds interesting. I wonder if the increase in effectiveness would offset the decrease in the BPC. Have you tried Doxy/Mepron/Septra?

[confused]

For those who are wondering here's a list of Tetracycline ABX:

Examples of tetracyclines-

Tetracycline
Chlortetracycline
Oxytetracycline
Demeclocycline
Doxycycline
Lymecycline
Meclocycline
Methacycline
Minocycline
Rolitetracycline
Tigecycline may also be considered a tetracycline antibiotic, though it is usually classified as a glycylcycline antibiotic.

Thanks for the replies!
[hi]

Ali

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

It's looking like this hasn't been such a popular Tx choice. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552

posted

quote:
Have you been taking the Mepron with a fatty meal (24gms fat)?

Wow!!! That's enough to make a person sick. Ugh!! I've been getting about 10 grams of fat per dose if that and I thought that was a lot. My doctor didn't specify. Is that info on the package or where could I find it?

I'll have to figure this out since I'm allergic to nuts and I'm not sure what one would eat to get that much fat.

I forgot to add that I was on artemisinin for about a year - 3 weeks on 1 week off at 200 mg 2X per day. That's along with the zith and doxy and then later the mepron - 3 weeks at 1/2 dose and 3 weeks at full dose. I also had a few months of malarone at very low dose - 1 pill per day. I had to stop all abx temporarily due to problems and symptoms came back within a few weeks.

Terry

Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

I asked the pharmacist, the 24 gms was per the pharm literature. I stand corrected. I looked it up & it's only 23gms. GSK - Mepron Info

Just under 2 Tbsp. butter or olive oil works.
Marie's creamy salad dressings usually a little over 2 Tbsp.
1 cup corned beef hash, I believe?
There's 8 gms in a cup of whole milk. (You could do that with 2/3 of one of the others. Or one and a half cups milk plus 1/2 of something else.)

I believe there may be some threads on this here. (not sure what they're called though. Sorry. [Frown]

)

I was fortunate and not allergic, a lot of times a "golf ball" of nut butter on a slice of bread got me by. I've also gagged down 2 Tbsp. butter on a slice of toast. It was sooooo hard to do in the am. [Roll Eyes]

I would use celery or leaves of lettuce to get the dressing down with a small dinner.

I had a big problem with loss of appetite and the mere thought of eating made me want to gag. I also had no idea just how relatively low-fat my diet had become even without consciously avoiding it.

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

savebabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9847

posted

Dr. B never put me on doxy and mepron at the same time.

I usually take septra, ketek, plaq, art and mepron 2tsp 2x day.

You also take zith or baixin instead of the ketek if you are worried about liver damage.

Posts: 1603 | From ny | Registered: Aug 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

Terry, I'm beginning to think our LLMDs read those studies & didn't catch think of the interaction. It would seem that maybe everyone else's LLMDs might know. [shake]

I can't believe that you & I are the only ones who've been put on this combo! [shake]

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

sometimesdilly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9982

posted

hi sweetie Ali-

i took mino and malarone combo for months. worked great for about 2 weeks somewhere in there, and then i went downhill for several months.

my llmd and i agreed way after the fact that it was a tx "failure." based on his experience nad other llmds', he told me that mino and malarone are often used together as cyst busters for Bb.

I wasn't taking the combo specifically for babs.

hope that helps...

dilly

Posts: 2507 | From lost in the maze | Registered: Aug 2006 | IP: Logged |

kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797

posted

24 grams of fat?! I wasn't told ANY amount. My daughter would take it in the morning with a cup of whole organic milk. She would get up a few hours later and have a muffin or donut.

She hated having to do this because she had gained 80 pounds with this illness, and was starting to lose it.

My LLMD had high hopes for the mepron/zith/heparin combo, but after 4-5 months lf no improvement, he didn't want to fool with that any more.

Would you put anything else with minoccycline to hit babs? Right now, mino is all she can handle.

By the way, my daughter has lost 55 pounds so far! So, something good is happening with this treatment.

Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

Hi Dilly!

It sure explains a lot for you, I think. [Roll Eyes]

I believe you have Babs too & you can't beat the Bb until you get the Babs down. That would explain why the combo didn't work, not enough atovaquone to take down the Babs first!

I think you should print out the prescribing info for malarone & ask your LLMD if the fact that Mino is a Tetra makes a difference? I believe it does.

You might also want to post a thread to see how many used this combo as a cyst buster & what their results were. They may have used Artemisinin, or another antiprotozoal, as well if they were successful. Then again, I don't see them showing up here. [Roll Eyes]

Nice to see you on the board, stranger! [Big Grin]

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

quote:
Originally posted by kelmo:
24 grams of fat?! I wasn't told ANY amount.

few people ARE told, that's why I had posted a thread on it a while back when I first found out, I was trying to get the word out.

quote:
She would get up a few hours later and have amuffin or donut.

Sugar & white flour?? [Eek!]

That would certainly make her gain weight. [shake]

I gagged down 24 gms of fat am & pm, like I previously posted, for 4 months and dropped weight like mad. Down to size 2. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
My LLMD had high hopes for the mepron/zith/heparin combo, but after 4-5 months lf no improvement, he didn't want to fool with that any more.

Maybe due to inadequate absorption? Although, I think I heard someone say heparin has antibabs activity?

quote:
Would you put anything else with minoccycline to hit babs? Right now, mino is all she can handle.

You might want to thread that question, to see if you can get some other answers. I know Doxy is used with Quinine(can be dangerous)for Malaria. I know a lot use Artemisinin in combos.

quote:
By the way, my daughter has lost 55 pounds so far! So, something good is happening with this treatment.

I'm confused, is she on mino & mepron, or just mino?

Babs can cause anorexia so if she's not treating Babs maybe it's the loss of appetite?

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797

posted

I'm not good enough to do all the quotes,AliG, so I'll try to answer your questions the best I can.

In earlier posts of Mepron Buddies, they were told 8 grams of fat, I didn't see your post saying 24. The pharmacist certainly didn't tell us to take that much. We might have done something different.

She is no longer on mepron or zith, she is just on mino.

I don't think she would go back on the mepron. I think it was absorbing fine, she had severe depression and hallucinations on it. Her pain level was through the roof, there was nothing to help it. She was maxed out on her antidepressants.

She sat like a statue on the couch all day, just enduring the day. She really needed a break.

She didn't gain 80 pounds by eating donuts. She gained 80 pounds in three months due to the bartonella/babesia infection. Her metabolism and adrenals were affected. Seroquel may have been a problem.

She lost the weight, so far, by perhaps changing two anti-depressants, treating bartonella, medications that take away her appetite. She stays away from carbs as much as possible, they really make her feel crummy, she can tell a difference.

She has youth on her side.

We may add heparin again later. Right now, she wants to take one college class, and I don't want her to be plastered on the couch in pain.

Having a life for a while may be healing for her. She's had three long years of being isolated and sick.

Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

OMG!! Your poor daughter!

I was of the impression that she was eating the donuts at every dose [Roll Eyes]

. I seem to be having some problems with confusion again. [shake]

I do think the heparin is also supposed to help with Babs and many just to Zith & Mepron without it so it may have made a difference.

My pharmacist didn't just tell me. I read something about fat in the pharm insert, but not specific. I asked the Pharmacist, he looked it up & informed me. It was actually 23 gms (I just looked it up myself at GSK).

I think my post may have been after the ones you were reading because I remember seeing the "Mepron Buddies" threads before I started treating Babs.

I'm also guessing that 8 gms of fat would also make a difference over a non-fat meal. I'm wondering where that number came from?

I hope she's able to handle the class. It would probably help take her mind off of some of the problems she's having. I'll say a prayer for you & your daughter.

Lyme, Bart & Babs - Poor kid! [shake]

Poor mom, too! [group hug]

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

Is this it?

Only a few have actually Txd with Doxy or Mino + Mepron or Malarone?

Looks like some LL"MD"s may have some splainin' to do. [Roll Eyes]

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

Vermont_Lymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9780

posted

I only took one malarone (adult dose) each day for babs. Was taking high dose amoxy at the same time.

Hope it worked, I am not sure. I took malarone for a little over 5 months.

Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

Terry,

I'd definitely suggest you address this with your LLMD before you put the Doxy with the Mepron.

I'd hate to see you waste your time, money & health too!

I'm going to LLMD today & will discuss this with him. I'll post again later.

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

tailz
Unregistered

posted

I couldn't handle Larium, and I'm awaiting a primaquine-chloroquine combo.

I'm on minocycline though and I'm noticing some pretty rapid weight gain with this one. Maybe a week or two ago I was 98 lbs, but yesterday I was 105 lbs. I have no idea which bug it's hitting either, but mino caused my biggest herx yet.

I'm starting kelp to see if maybe since drugs like mino blacken the thyroid in rats, maybe kelp would protect it? Worth a try.

I don't know if it's working yet, but 105 is fat for me, and I'm not happy with it - though people tell me I look healthier. If my fat is dimply, it's fat in my eyes.

Just don't tell my doctors or they'll accuse me of anorexia again when I'm really starving to death unintentionally.

IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

Hi Tailz-

Just to clarify for you.

Anorexia is loss of appetite.

Anorexia Nervosa is the disorder where you think you're fat & deliberately starve yourself.

I am positively Anorexic right now, the mere thought of eating nauseates me. I do not think I'm fat & I have no desire to lose any more weight. My level of Anorexia is a big part of how I know my relapses.

The doctors may not mean what you think. [Wink]

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552

posted

AliG,
I'll bring this up with my LLMD about the doxy. I talk to him on the phone in mid Sept.. I'll also ask him about the fat. I will read the insert more carefully but it looks like they list the fat in the typical meal that was eaten. Not sure if that means that you need that much for absorption. I'd hate to take chances though since this stuff is so expensive.

As far as absorption, I read in the babs book that absorption can be all over the place, some too high, some too low and it might be a good idea to get blood levels. I think I'll ask my doctor about that too.

I'll be interested to see what your LLMD has to say.

Very important thread. Thanks,

Terry

Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006 | IP: Logged |

tailz
Unregistered

posted

Ali - I know. I just shortened it.

I was like you for awhile - no appetite. But at some point I developed a VORACIOUS appetite and was eating 4-6 meals a day and still losing. I looked skeletal, my doctors thought I looked skeletal, and I had no desire to lose weight, but they didn't believe me.

Now though I do want to lose 5-7 lbs - or at least redistribute it. I like that my face and arms are fatter, for example.

I think I may have had tapeworm, because when I took wormwood complex, I passed little rice-like thingers. This would explain my extreme hunger - they were eating and I was not. I had some kind of literal worms though.

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nellypointis
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 1719

posted

quote:
The effect of doxycycline, obtained from human volunteers administered doxycycline, on the minimum inhibitory concentration (MIC) of atovaquone was determined against the K1 and FC27 isolates of Plasmodium falciparum in vitro. Doxycycline concentrations ranging from 0.10-1.18 μg/ml added to atovaquone produced MIC ratios [atovaquone + doxycycline/atovaquone alone] ranging from 0.38 to 0.70. These results suggest that the antimalarial activity of atovaquone is potentiated by doxycycline.

What I understand from this study, is that the anti-malarial effect of blood taken from volunteers was used against isolates of Plasmodium falciparum in vitro. But the two drugs (atovaquone and doxy) were taken by the volunteers, so the anti-malarial effect of their blood in-vitro was just an indication of how much atovaquone/doxy was in their blood.

So in fact that's really an in-vivo study of how the two drugs affect each other when they are taken by mouth, and according to this Australian study, the antimalarial activity of atovaquone is potentiated by doxycycline

Nelly

Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged |

TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552

posted

Yes Nelly, it does not seem clear what the result of doxy would be. That study looks like doxy might increase affects but the babs book mentions that Dr. B. says the opposite and it looks like he uses blood levels. Very confusing as to what is going on which is why I think blood levels are probably the best way to go.

Terry

Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

From the other study, Doxy increases the blood clearance of Atovaquone, which would mean it's flushing it out of the system faster.

If they drew the blood while the concentrations were up & put it in a dish, it would remain the same level. It's in the body that it gets flushed out. No?

I also spoke with LLMD today & gave him my thoughts on this with accompanying literature. He said he will definitely look into it. I trust he will.

I even blamed GSK & told him of my conversation with them. I wasn't accusatory or anything. I trust he'll figure it out. He's a pretty bright guy. [Roll Eyes]

If I'm right we haven't taken down the Babs yet.

He switched me to High dose Amoxy now, 1500mg BID. It has no effect on Babs. So, in about a week or so I'll either be feeling better or a lot worse.

Hmmmm, I wonder if now he's trying to kill me? [Eek!]

[ 22. August 2007, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: AliG ]

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

sometimesdilly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9982

posted

hi Ali-

just saw this thread again after some days.

you are definitely on a roll with your research (your brain must be clicking along OK, at least for now - i'm glad!!!).

and this piece of info about mino plus malarone is really interesting.

i'm definitely going to ask several llmd's about what they think.

and yep, i'm thinking babs is likely too, though my almost ex-llmd - whom i totally respect- says the malarone for that long would have kicked it. but the malarone i took for those months was ALWAYS coupled with mino. hmm.

hugs to you- i'm always glad to find you on the board, not least because you always have something worthwhile to add. [kiss]

dilly

Posts: 2507 | From lost in the maze | Registered: Aug 2006 | IP: Logged |

WildCondor
Unregistered

posted

When i did mepron/Zithromax the first time, it worked, but I relapsed a year later. The second time, my treatment was double the dose of Mepron (3-4 teaspoons per day instead of 2) and also 1,200 mg of oral Zithromax (instead of 600 mg) and artemesia annua was added 3x per day. That combo worked and I have remained well since. Sometimes you just need stronger doses of the combinations. [Smile]

IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

Thanks for the kind words, Dilly [Big Grin]

We really have to get you better, sweetheart. You have a little guy to fight for and your fight is inspiring me to make another rally for DD, even though I'm outnumbered and half-witted [Roll Eyes]

I actually feel myself headed back down & I 'm not going back without a fight. I know if I don't figure something out quickly, I won't be able to figure anything out at all. It's really more desperation right now.

I do believe it's the Babs doing this to me, making the Lyme Tx stall. I almost feel like I'm heading back to square one, but apparently by whatever I'm telling/forgetting to tell LLMD about my symptoms, he thinks it's more Lyme. Maybe he's right? He IS the doctor. [Roll Eyes]

I guess I'll know in a week or so whether I've really got this figured out. The Amoxy should tell us if it's Babs, I guess.

I do have to say that that one of the great things about this board is that you can come up with an idea on something, put it up here and so many wonderful people will offer you different thoughts and perspectives.

I really love that I've gotten challenges on this to make me think more about it. I've read the quote posted by Nelly about a dozen (or more) times now. It seems to me that the Doxy was obtained from the volunteers, but the atovaquone was in the dish?

I'm so thankful that I have all these people here to help me think! I don't know where I'd be without you all, you give me strength that I wouldn't otherwise have. [group hug]

Wild Condor,
Thanks for sharing that Tx info. I'm curious about 2 things.

1)They just doubled the doses and added art? Did you have any side effects or complications as a result of the higher doses?

2)May I ask your approx. weight? I'm about 120. I know I'm not supposed to be able to tolerate as much as someone larger in size. I'm wondering if doses like that would crush me... [dizzy]

I know I've read that with atovaquone you can only get so much concentration, so more isn't necessarily better. Or is it? If you're not absorbing it, more may be better. No?

The fact that the concentration fluctuates because of the variance of individual absorption is really interesting. (Thanks for that Kelly)

I wonder if it has to do with the variance in the fat content of a typical meal?
Possibly the idndividual digestion? (would enzymes, taken with, help?)
Absorption in the intestines? (would taking Probiotics with help? Then it would have to be taken apart from the ABX by 2-3 hours)

I wonder what kind of stress the elimination of atovaquone puts on the body. GSK (mfgr)told me that the dose I'd been taking (1 tsp BID) was the MAXIMUM (their emphasis, not mine) recommended by them. I wonder why?

So many questions in my head this morning.....

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

nellypointis
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 1719

posted

quote:
I really love that I've gotten challenges on this to make me think more about it. I've read the quote posted by Nelly about a dozen (or more) times now. It seems to me that the Doxy was obtained from the volunteers, but the atovaquone was in the dish?

You might be right! I too read that abstract several times, in fact I read this abstract a few years ago when I was taking atovaquone and I was looking into what to take it with.

I wish the people who write these abstracts would learn to write simple sentences so that the meaning is clear, and this is not always the case.

Would anybody have access to the full text?

Nelly

Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

I don't have any full-text access, sorry. [Frown]

Maybe someone else will.

It can be very frustrating trying to read these things. That's why it's good to have so many people read & give their take on them. It really does help.

If it is the way I think, it's very easy to see how even a doctor might find it misleading if read quickly.

The study was probably funded by GSK and worded to be misleading. [Roll Eyes]

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

micul
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 6314

posted

Ali,

Have you researched all the old threads? Here's one for example that you may not have seen:

Old Babesia Thread

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You're only a failure when you stop trying.

Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004 | IP: Logged |

Geneal
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10375

posted

I knew the doxy lowered the effectiveness of malarone (as per my LLMD).

Haven't done that combo yet, but just can't seem to clear this babs.

I keep trying to talk my LLMD into adding art too.

BTW, I was on the road to significant skinniness (99lbs) prior to adding cortef

For adrenal fatigue. Now I am putting on weight.

Talk about a roller coaster ride.

Hugs,

Geneal

Posts: 6250 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

WOW! Thanks Micul!

I'm still reading, but I wanted to stop back here & tell you THIS IS GREAT!!!! Thank you for the link!!!

I wish I had all that info back when I first started with the Mepron [bonk]

I know I did searches back then, maybe there were too many for my [dizzy]

brain to read? I really was a terrible mess at the time.

A lot of this stuff should be posted in a link at the top of the board. Don't tell me, it's in the newbie links that I never finished reading.

Thanks again for all the info! [kiss]

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

micul
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 6314

posted

You're welcome.

I was lucky enough to be able to spend hours each day going through most of the old threads...gathering a lot of info about drugs, dosages, and protocols that were being used. It's also important to do this to get a feel for what works, what is truth, and what is subjective garbage.

Unfortunately a lot of the old files are no longer available. They were removed about a year ago when the system was upgraded. Using Firefox as your browser helps a lot too. Internet Explorer is very slow to go back and forth between the list of threads and the individual threads.

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You're only a failure when you stop trying.

Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004 | IP: Logged |

Parisa
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 10526

posted

My husband has been taking 200 mg of doryx (doxy) with mepron, artemisinin, plaquenil and biaxin. Insurance had authorized 6 months of doryx which ran out on Friday.

Not wanting to pay for the pricey pills he decided to wait until next week to see what we could do with insurance. This morning he had a whopper of a herx - felt like an elephant was sitting on his chest, pressure in his head, nausea, etc.

I don't know whether the lyme is partying because the doryx is gone or whether he got a full dose of the mepron without any doryx in his system.

So, I went to the pharmacy to pay for the pricey pills until we can bring (hopefully) insurance around. I hate to think that after three months of mepron he has that much babesia left in him. We'll see what the LLMD says when we see him next.

[ 26. August 2007, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Parisa ]

Posts: 984 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2006 | IP: Logged |

AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734

posted

Wow Parisa, That's REALLY interesting.

Thanks for sharing that! [Big Grin]

I wonder if that was the case.?

I would think that the art would help offset the interaction. Was he seeing improvement while doing the whole shabang?

[confused]

Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged |

Parisa
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 10526

posted

We were just talking the other day and he was saying that some of the deep pain he used to have in his hips and back were gone and so was most of the tightness in his face. I think he has improved but it does concern me to think that if the doryx is inhibiting the mepron and he gets such a reaction that he still may have alot more treatment to do.

Never talk about improvement. The minute you do the carpet gets pulled right out from under you.

Posts: 984 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2006 | IP: Logged |

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