Topic: Steere's manipulation of importance of band 41?
david1097
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3662
posted
Duke,
Sorry for the condfusing response. I re-read your last comment and I think I now know what you mean.... Let me try to answer it again. (Note , the stuff below not withstanding the other post on the B31 vs band 31 is still valid).
Comment .... If I understand this correctly it would be the opposite of what you are saying. B31 strain is the antigen they use for the LUAT and the PCR (OSPA). According to Nick Harris band 31 is the most Lyme specific band of all. He says no other organism known has OSPA. So if I was positive on the PCR and not the WB then it would be opposite of your statement?
my response.....
Lets start with the PCR. The PCR is a method to amplify fragments of DNA that may be present. If there are bacteria in a sample, even minute quantities, PCR can be used to multiply select fragments of the bacterias DNA. To do this they use a specific primer that sort of looksl like what they are truying to magnify. The primer is enough like the fragemtn they want to multiply that it can replicate the dna synthsis process using the original organisms DNA. It does nto duplicate the entire DNA, just a fragement, but it is unique enought that it can be used to detect specific genetic material. PCR dose not use antogens for the testing.
On the LUAT issue. As far as I know (and someone please correct me if I got this wrong) the LUAT is sort of opposite the WB. The WB test looks for the antibodies that have been created in response to an antigen being presented. The outer surface protiens are the ones that WB looks for the antibodies for. If you hve no antibodies or if the antibodies are entirely consumed fighting the infection then there will not be any response....
The LUAT test is sort of the opposite, I think it uses antibodies in the test to look for the protien fragmetns (antigens) in the urine. So it is very possible that the LUAT might be positive and WB negative or weak.
Someone might say ....What! if the antibodies are entirely consumed fighting the infection then there will not be any response.... This might sound far fetched but there are some animals that can have all of their white blood cells consumed fighting an infection... I think it is entirely possible that the specific antibodies could be consumed in fighting the lyme antigens. In fact the purpose of the blebs that are shed may be to keep the antibodies busy and deplete them.
The fact that there was at least a weak WB response to ABX treatment is typical from what I have heard and seen. In addition, I think that the trend has been the longer and more successful the treatment, the stronger the WB response becomes.
Posts: 1184 | From north america | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Hugely informative.. Ill print, to digest bite by bite. Thanx all! waldenflo
Posts: 9 | From Boston- Cape Cod | Registered: Aug 2007
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adamm
Unregistered
posted
I would also like to express that sentiment. Greatly helped me appreciate the magnitude of the atrocity being perpetrated upon us...a hugely illuminating thread.
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An attempt to correlate the PCR results with the results of tests detecting antibodies against B. burgdorferi s.l. revealed that fewer than half {45.1 %} of the dogs with presence of DNA of the spirochete, developed an immune response. Therefore the transfer of B. burgdorferi s.l. form, the primary lesion to the target tissues, is possible in dogs which did not develop immune response or develop an insufficient response. Among 92 borreliosis-suspected dogs 54 {over 58 %} were diagnosed positively using laboratory methods. In most cases there was a correlation between clinical symptoms of borreliosis and presence of DNA B. burgdorferi, thus PCR may contribute to improving to a large extent diagnostic of canine Lyme disease. ....................................
The above quote is from a polish study abstract. Think about this. In dogs studied, fewer than half that had PCR evidence of Bb infection showed an ab response on standard testing. As far as I know, this sort of study has not been published in humans. Why is this significant?
First, I'm not sure HOW the polish scientists tested for PCR. In humans, it's done on serum and CSF for most part, sometimes on joint fluid. The same is done on animals, BUT usually in animal studies, they obtain deep tissue ie skin punches for PCR testing. It matters because late stage Bb infection is a deep tissue infection, not a blood infection. Ear punch biopsies are commonly performed in mouse and other mammalian studies, but are not performed in human studies.
While dogs have different immune systems from humans, it certainly would be helpful to know whether similar results are obtained in humans. After all, such a study clearly demonstrates that ElISA and wb testing is useless in ruling out infection. It's safe to assume that the CDC, with its vast repository of blood and tissue samples from across the US and around the world, has performed such testing. The fact that it has NOT been published is illuminating. The CDC HAS published studies on Bb WB testing in some populations that are not from endemic areas...most notably, a study performed on a group from new guinea.
I have personally concluded that the CDC/EIS discovered that lyme serologic testing for later stages of infection was practically useless. They MAY have discovered that large numbers of individuals harbour non-pathogenic or apparently innocuous/latent infections in humans, and decided that most people do not advance to late neuroborreliosis. They MAY now be discovering that their calculations were incorrect, that the numbers are far larger and they might not have anticipated the development of SPECT/PET testing would reveal truths that they'd rather not see illuminated, ie that chronic lyme patients were in fact afflicted with a distinct neuropathological process.
Posts: 523 | From Stillwater,OK,USA | Registered: Sep 2004
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I have read a big pile of the literature now, and have given up trying to get anything useful out of Steere, Wormser, Halperin, Shapiro, etc. It is impossible to sort out any true facts from the distortions.
I don't know if band 41 alone is diagnostic - I had accepted that it cross-reacts with other flagella and so is non-specific for Lyme. We need research that is not contaminated by the Steere camp literature. There are many good little papers out there, especially from the early days, and from Europe, but now the field is so contaminated that it is very hard for anyone to do good objective research. Some heros keep it up - go good guys.
Unfortunately, as we know, the official view is the opposite. Most MDs give great weight to the prestige of the institution and the number of times something gets repeated in the literature. They're not trained to analyze data critically, much less recognize when data has been seriously biased and manipulated. Don't get me wrong, some MDs can pick it up, and do good research, because they have a natural gift for critical thought, but it's not encouraged by their standard training.
The motive(s) for all this IDSA biased junk science is key, but I can't really discern it for sure. There are lots of interesting theories, but no proof. I think our biggest barrier is that the general public can't believe that so many doctors can be so wrong.
My current favorite motive for the Steere-camp researchers is that it is a consequence of post-modernism, the idea that there is no truth, no facts, only stories. When I was in college, it was hip to apply this idea not only to the humanities but to the sciences. Most of us in science in the Midwest blew this off, although we knew about the trend. If you believe in it, obviously there's no practical reason to do science - it's just another art form. But I think it affected the Ivy league much more heavily. Especially susceptible are those who were there not because they had an intellectual gift, but because their families pushed them into it. (You can provide your own public examples ;-)
Once you get a couple of prestigious guys who do their work this way, the rest of the flock follows along like sheep. For instance, my husband's PCP actually said "Allen Steere is the guru of Lyme disease!" He couldn't even conceive of questioning his opinion.
I was talking recently to a couple of MDs who work for pharmaceutical companies. One of them proudly said, "I can design a study to prove anything!" I said, "Well, sure, but it would be biased," by which I meant, scientifically meaningless and ethically wrong. And he replied "Everything is biased." The other MD nodded sagely. They obviously considered me naive to think that there was such a thing as (relatively) objective research. End of discussion.
If this is how Steere et al. think, it explains the whole thing. In that view, the best scientist is the most convincing con man, and the only criteria for success is keeping your story going as long as possible. There is no ethical problem with "the truth" or "the facts", because they truly believe there are no facts, no truth. Their professors told them so.
I realize this completely violates common sense; the same people don't jump off a tall building because they think "gravity" is just a good story. But I have come to think that common sense is not that common. Especially among the power-hungry and ego-ridden.
On the other hand, maybe the other theories are correct. Maybe it's insurance companies - although it's got to cost them more to treat symptoms than the cause, so if so, they're really dumb (see above about common sense - maybe they are). Or maybe it's bio-warfare - I read the books, the evidence is not compelling, but that doesn't rule it out. Or maybe the motives are all of the above.
The important thing is to expose the fact that the IDSA science is hopelessly flawed. It's so entrenched, though, that I don't know how long that will take. They've got control of the medical guidelines and the CDC, which controls the diagnosis and reporting of the disease. And the more they get dug in, the more embarrassing it would be for them to admit they're wrong. Think of all the suffering they've caused - they'll never back down, it would be too humiliating.
Also, obviously, it would help if we knew a real cure that works for everyone. The reason we have to keep taking antibiotics is that they don't completely get rid of the bug. But how can we get a cure without real research?
Well, sorry not to have a plan after all this. I'm just telling the ILADS view to everyone I know , and once in a while I get feedback that somebody got diagnosed and ILADS-treated. Keep the grapevine swinging!
And thanks again for this detailed and informative thread.
Lorima
Posts: 74 | From MA | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Hi folks, have not been readibng lymenet for ages due to many problems with usual pain, concentration, etc, but I should have cos it's so interesting.
About band p41, has anyone posted yet about the specific antigen that's patented for what's called "internal p41?" I believe it is so specific for the central part of the flagellin protein that no other flagellin antibodies, for eg leptospirosis, would react with it.
I can try and find the references where I'm remembering this from. It might be included in Western Blots now used in the UK, but I believe even then that it is awarded only 1 or a couple of points in some kind of points system. Forgive my vagueness, lyme brain really has slowed me to a standstill.
Also, can people here recall a publication about Lyme antibodies in monkeys, in which monkeys were monitored after being infected, and all the antibodies disappeared until only one was left, and that was our famous p41??
These "non human primates" as they are so coldly labelled in the scientific world, are our nearest relatives, and they have vaccines tested on them etc, so it seems pretty relevant to extrapolate these results to the human situation.
The whole sorry tale of the lies around Lyme disease is one day going to explode, but I always wonder how on earth all of the complications and twists in the tale will be put over to the general public?
Best wishes, Andromeda
Posts: 180 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2005
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While I'm still awake - there is definitely some kind of cover up going on at high levels in the UK.
Recent requests to the Medical Research Council asked to see what scientific research project requests for funding had been put to the MRC over the last 30 years or so, on the subject of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, or ME or you might call it Fibromyalgia and Chronic fatigue Syndrome.
The MRC funds university research and sets up scientists for a long time, if they are any good and IF they are good at doing what the MRC (ie the government) want them to do.
Well it seems that research topics and projects from 1992 to 1998 are actually secret!! The MRC won't let people know what scientists requested grant money for with respect to ME research.
This is really Big Brother territory now, because we've had Lyme in Britain for as long as you have, just different strains.
It has caused us to have 200,000 people with Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, and god knows what else, without a single member of the public knowing, and most of them being labelled by a concerted bunch of insurance company-funded psychiatrists under the leadership of Prof. Simon Wessely.
We have had no Polly Murray or karen Forschner to ask the right questions and push for ME research in the past, but now there are many determined people getting to know that their sick children do not have ME, instead they have Lyme.
We are decades behind you, but catching up fast on the awareness front. The worst thing is that most people in the UK pay into the National Health Service directly from their salaries or pay packets, there is no choice.
We have been let down completely when we realise that no way can we get treatment, unless we pay tens of thousands of pounds.
BW, Andromeda
Posts: 180 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2005
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Can you cite that for me where Nick Harris stated the 31 kd band is the most specific for lyme and no other organism has OspA? I would like to use that statement when I go see my LLMD on Monday. I have an Igenex IGM with +30, ++31 , IND41, +58 and IGG with IND39, IND41. An Igenex IGG from a year ealier has IND31 , IND39, +41, +58. Thanks.
Posts: 31 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
This is an email I recieved from Randy Sykes in CT. Yale patented an Bbabd 41 test which they claim is 94% accurate, then mothballed it.
"Yale says don't pay attention to band 41 because it means nothing. Yet they have patented a test for lyme that only uses band 41. They also claim the test is over 94% accurate. These are the people who have been working to hang DR. Jones for treating lyme disease and refuse to respond to Attorney General Blumenthal's subpoena. This test has been put in moth balls.
US patent # 5,618,533
Also the second link, page 5 at the top right, one paragraph down, Dr Steere says that if you have band 41 this means that you either have gum disease, syphilis or lyme disease. He also states that you can tell the difference between these illnesses by a clinical diagnoses. All the lymies have band 41 but few people produce many other bands, Randy Sykes
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