Topic: Important Question for All Folks on Marshall Protocol
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Well!
One thing I've discovered it that when it comes to understanding all this stuff, I feel like a complete moron.
It appears that perhaps the most important things for me to know are these (based on some of the studies out there):
......current research has demonstrated that osteoporosis and osteopenia are often the direct result of infection with L-form bacteria which produce inflammatory cytokines and inactivate the Vitamin D Receptor .
....Recent research has shown that levels of 25-D over 20 ng/ml can bind and inactivate the VDR, which subsequently shuts down the innate immune system .
....Also, when levels of 1,25D rise above 42 ng/ml , calcium begins to be leached from the bones , a process that results in osteoporosis and osteopenia.
I've been all over the ``Bacteriality literature'' and other places, taken notes several times, and yet I can't seem to keep the basics in my mind, and certainly not well enough to explain any of this to my PCP (I see him this afternoon).
I did gather some notes for him to explain my interest in the D, calcium, and parathyroid levels. Although my main concern is the osteoporosis factor at this point, researching this just tied right in to my suspicion that it was Lyme & Co. responsible for my bone loss, and not deficiencies (intake) of any vitamins or minerals.
I do tend to think that this is true.
What still holds me back from being convinced are stories like that of ``gwenb'', who has posted about her improvement by supplementing with Vitamin D (this from another thread):
``I started supplementing with Vit D3 8 months ago and the result was a DRAMATIC improvement in my symptoms....
``I am extremely glad that I researched Vit D and then decided to supplement with it. The quality of life I currently enjoy (I had already radically modified my diet and take numerous other supplements - but when I started taking Vit D the improvement in my symptoms was quite astounding...''
I think Luvs2Ride posted improvement with additional Vit D, also.
I guess the MP theory would say that it is the steroidal quality of the additional Vit D that is causing this person to feel better; meanwhile, the CWD bacteria are proliferating and will eventually cause a worse infection?
**sigh** Very hard to understand the discrepancies.
Minitails, some of us have lost faith in science, in general, and peer-reviewed studies and research in particular. When Marcia Angell, a former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, is concerned about it then I tend to be, also.
And I read that a few years ago, the NEJM basically gave up trying to find truly independent doctors to write and review articles for the journal. Then are the ``ghost writers'' who write articles for the esteemed doctors because the docs have no time to do it. The whole procedure isn't looking very `unbiased' at the moment.
I don't want to divert this thread, but perhaps a different thread would be in order in the near future - started by those of you who understand and trust the system - about why peer-review is so important, how we know when to trust the findings, the reviewers, etc. Just a thought. I know enough to know that I don't know enough about this!
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I too felt overwhelmed & excited with all the information I suddenly had available after spending more time at the Marshall Protocol website. You don't have to have any interest in MP at all to learn a TON there & by way of all the references & links provided!
You have obviously chosen a fitting username - keep searching for the truth!
Posts: 246 | From Grass Valley, CA | Registered: Jun 2007
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Well, BRH, I don't know if ``excited'' is the word I would use, but I do know what you mean.
To be honest, I was hoping this Vitamin D thing would be a lot like buying a toaster - you just plug it in and it works. I love researching certain things - for some reason, this isn't one of them. Perhaps it is too similar to the ILADS vs. IDSA controversy - both sides believing they have the evidence to support their point of view.
Yes, I will have to do more research because my doctor explained my DEXA scan results to me more thoroughly. I have the bones of a 90-100 year old woman, and I'm only `on the cusp' of age 57. Just one more good reason why NOT to have undiagnosed Lyme & Co. for about 50 years...... I really can't afford to get this wrong.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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If you have the bones of a 90-100 year old woman you are likely very vitamin D deficient. Calcium isn't absorbed correctly without adequate vitamin D levels.
I would also exercise a word of caution regarding the Marshall Protocol which I believe is potentially very dangerous: Why is it that the MP contradicts the results of hundreds if not thousands of peer-reviewed medical studies regarding the very real benefits of Vitamin D?
At one time I was contemplating going on the Marshall Protocol, but before I did I spent several days at Pubmed researching Vitamin D - which I knew almost nothing about. After doing so I was convinced that the multiple and extremely well-documented benefits of Vitamin D, and the fact that many N. Americans are grossly deficient, meant that I should be supplementing, rather than restricting the already paltry amount of Vitamin D I was obtaining from natural sources.
There is so much extremely compelling evidence regarding the incredible beneftis of Vitamin D supplementation and reducing cancer, improving MS, kidney disease, tuberculosis, high blood pressure etc that at the very least people owe it to themselves to read several peer-reviewed articles about the benefits of Vitamin D before engaging in the Marshall Protocol - which is unproven, controversial and potentially dangerous.
I have provided links to peer-reviewed Vitamin D studies in my other posts on this subject.
posted
If the evidence is so overwhelming that vitamin D increases bone density, why are so many on MP reporting their bone density loss has actually stabilized or improved?
No argument that calcium is very important for bone health. So is phosphorous. However, patients with unusually high 1,25-D values (relative to 25-D) obviously have all the vitamin D they need. Just ask their kidneys!
Didn't peer-review prove the Earth was flat?
So what is the root cause of your vitamin D deficiency?
PS. Perhaps you haven't seen this story yet. Even the NIH seems to think the peer-reviewed research on this subject is not so clear after all.
[ 01. November 2007, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: B R H ]
Posts: 246 | From Grass Valley, CA | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
My point in asking for your qualifications was merely to point out that you are COMPLETELY unqualified to offer scientific analysis of Marshall's work. I don't feel I'm any more qualified although I do have direct experience with the protocol & have studied the details far more than you have. My only goal is to expose more people to what I believe is VERY promising research & a treatment that is producing positive results that are not easily explained with conventional medical "wisdom."
My "degrees" are in computer engineering, mathematics, & computer science. My first job out of college was as a research engineer. I was the first non PhD to be hired to that position at that particular company so I must have done something right in school (being #2 in my class probably didn't hurt). The work I was involved in resulted in MANY papers & patents, so I am quite familiar with science & peer-review. I work as an independent consultant now.
You'll need to answer far more of my questions (above) before I answer any more of yours.
Posts: 246 | From Grass Valley, CA | Registered: Jun 2007
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Sheesh, I haven't been able to post to this thread for 2 days.
BTW, I did use Quest to do my Vit D tests, and I made sure they knew they had to freeze the sample(s), etc.
gwen, thanks for your post. I wish the evidence in my own case could substantiate one point of view or the other.
For instance, apparently I started losing bone even when I was engaging in outdoor activities and getting much more sunlight than I am now - that was way back in about 1990. And I was eating more raw foods then, too.
I'm not entirely sure the MP theories actually DO contradict the various studies out there, because what we don't know about all those studies is how many people were involved who had Lyme, sarcoidosis, etc. Probably not very many. I'm not sure this peculiar Vit D/mineral dysregulation occurs that frequently.
I looked at my recent mammogram results and it mentions `benign calcifications are unchanged'. Well, `calcifications' in my breasts just shows that I'm depositing minerals in soft tissue where it doesn't belong. This is mentioned in the MP theories.
I've developed a bony growth on my L wrist bone in the past year. Clearly, my body's regulation of minerals and what to do with them is out of whack.
None of this means that it is excess Vitamin D causing the problem, nor that I have a deficiency. I'm just trying to see what obvious evidence I have right on front of my nose.
I have to tell you that since adding the additional 1,200 i.u. of Vitamin D (and more calcium and some strontium) about 3 weeks ago, I've been able to stay off the anti-inflammatories for my back (knock on wood). And I do feel better, generally.
(I'm a bit unhappy that these new calcium supplements have proven to be somewhat constipating, and the company advertised them as `non-constipating'. But this has been my experience with every form of calcium out there.)
Thanks, minitails. Sorry your mom has been through all this. I broke my pelvis in July, and I broke it trying to prevent myself from falling backward. I fell over anyway, but had I not done what I did, I might have broken my back and I wouldn't be here. That was my big wake-up call.
My doc is willing to re-test my D levels in a couple of months. We'll see if my 1,25-D goes up and if there is much change in my 25-D level.
Meanwhile, I will get a little more diligent about using some natural bug-killer supplements and remedies. And detox. And exercise. And pH balance. Basic lifestyle improvements.
Also, there was a study years ago that I read about in my Alternatives newsletter that found that women who kept their pH levels in the alkaline range were able to build more bone mass than any of the other women in the study. It has been years since I read that so I can't remember all the different protocols tested.
I do think dealing with the infection is the ultimate answer. That was the goal all along, of course, but it just became a lot more important.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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