lymednva
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9098
posted
I've been on Artemisinin for several months now and have not noticed any worsening of neuro symptoms.
-------------------- Lymednva Posts: 2407 | From over the river and through the woods | Registered: Apr 2006
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
From what research I've done (alot) I gathered that artemisinin is not normally toxic - in normal doses, not derivatives and in humans. But, I've not read everything.
If you say there is QUITE a lot, I many have missed that. Could you share the articles, or at least the citations? I'm trying to learn all I can about it. And, there's more to learn, but here's what I've found:
Of course, if you have any problem, take caution.
(Tovey has written about it being toxic, but I see holes and assumptions in his research - my opinion.)
The DERIVATIVES (not artemesinin itself) in VERY high doses in lab mice and dogs caused some neuro and brain stem problem.
in a study in VietNam with 242 patients with malaria there was no reported problem. There were 108 controls. --------------------- --------------------- http://tinyurl.com/2hb5mo
Clinical and neurophysiological study of the effects of multiple doses of artemisinin on brain-stem function in Vietnamese patients.
excerpt: Although there has been no clinical evidence of neurotoxicity, an unusual pattern of damage to specific brain-stem nuclei has been reported in experimental animals receiving high doses of arteether or artemether.
. . . In this population [242 patients; 108 controls] there was no clinical or neurophysiological evidence of brain-stem toxicity that could be attributed to exposure to artemisinin or artesunate. . . . ------------- -------------
Combining this with other drugs could pose a risk, as any drug combinations should be cleared with MDs.
Also, if a person has a type of porphyria (or secondary porphyria) and their cytochrome P-450 liver detox pathway is hampered, toxicity may result due to excess porphyrins, not due to the drug itself, but due to the liver's inablity to produce necessary detox enzymes.
Artemesinin does use the C P-450 pathway. So it would be contraindicated in anyone with porphyria. In some cases drugs that push the C P-450 pathway can be fatal for anyone with porphyria, so caution is wise.
Many people with some chronic infections may also have impaired C P-450 processes. I believe that many of the drug reactions, even herxes may be related to this.
the enzymes necessary for the C P-450 pathway are not commercially availabale (not 10 yrs ago, anyway). However, beta carotene, glucose (but that's not great for lyme), and some supplements may be of help.
Schisandra (schizandra) berry, milk thistle are just some that help the liver in this regard. (See the ONE EARTH HERBAL SOURCEBOOK, search: Schizandra) - there is a study there that shows C P-450 enzyme improvement.
As alcohol also pushes this pathway, it is vital to avoid alcohol when taking artemesinin (although Dr. B. has cautioned that in general for all lyme patients already). but the combination of any alcohol with artm, IF someone has a sort of porphryia, in my view, could be dangerous.
There are at least 11 types and it is hard to test. Many stereotypes abound. But knowing about it can save lives. It can be genetic, acquired or (I forget the third thing).
websites for the Canadian Porphyria Foundation and the American Porphyria Foundation have lists of drugs that employ the C P-450 pathway. ---
Mol Pharmacol. 2005 Jun;67(6):1954-65. Epub 2005 Mar 10.
Antimalarial artemisinin drugs induce cytochrome P450 and MDR1 expression by activation of xenosensors pregnane X receptor and constitutive androstane receptor.
[from Germany]
excerpt: In conclusion, activation of PXR and CAR and especially the resulting induction of CYP3A4 and MDR1 demonstrate that artemisinin has a higher risk of potential drug interactions than anticipated previously.
PMID: 15761118 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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[ 18. October 2007, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
Is there anyway to share the article, author or research source/ citation upon which your LLMD based his comment?
It would be very helpful to my research and I could share it with my doctor who says he's found no research that bothers him about it. So, if there's something new, it'd be great to see it.
posted
I have some concerns about the safety of treating Lyme with quinolones, including samento and cat's claw. Here is one study on artemisinin. When I asked one of the Cubist scientists about the safety of their newest quinolone I was told something like the following, "Yes, we put this stuff in the patient and just hope it will kill the bacteria before it harms the person."
My personal experience was severe tendon and nerve damage from quinolones. I have no trouble with the P450 pathway, so that cannot be why I cannot tolerate quinolones and have what looks to be permanent damage from taking them. If you have ever had problems, any problems with quinolones I would not take artemisinin. Paula Carnes
Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy, March 2002, p. 821-827, Vol. 46, No. 3 0066-4804/02/$04.00+0 DOI: 10.1128/AAC.46.3.821-827.2002 Copyright � 2002, American Society for Microbiology. All Rights Reserved.
Neurotoxic Mode of Action of Artemisinin Gabriele Schmuck,1* Elke Roehrdanz,1, Richard K. Haynes,2 and Regine Kahl3 Pharma Research Center, Bayer AG, D-42096, Wuppertal,1 Department of Toxicology, Heinrich Heine University D�sseldorf, 40225 D�sseldorf, Germany,3 Department of Chemistry, The Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, Clear Water Bay, Kowloon, Hong Kong2
Received 25 June 2001/ Returned for modification 31 July 2001/ Accepted 21 December 2001
We recently described a screening system designed to detect neurotoxicity of artemisinin derivatives based on primary neuronal brain stem cell cultures (G. Schmuck and R. K. Haynes, Neurotoxicity Res. 2:37-49, 2000). Here, we probe possible mechanisms of this brain stem-specific neurodegeneration, in which artemisinin-sensitive neuronal brain stem cell cultures are compared with nonsensitive cultures (cortical neurons, astrocytes). Effects on the cytoskeleton of brain stem cell cultures, but not that of cortical cell cultures, were visible after 7 days. However, after a recovery period of 7 days, this effect also became visible in cortical cells and more severe in brain stem cell cultures. Neurodegeneration appears to be induced by effects on intracellular targets such as the cytoskeleton, modulation of the energy status by mitochondrial or metabolic defects, oxidative stress or excitotoxic events. Artemisinin reduces intracellular ATP levels and the potential of the inner mitochondrial membrane below the cytotoxic concentration range in all three cell cultures, with these effects being most dominant in the brain stem cultures. Surprisingly, there were substantial effects on cortical neurons after 7 days and on astrocytes after 1 day. Artemisinin additionally induces oxidative stress, as observed as an increase of reactive oxygen species and of lipid peroxidation in both neuronal cell types. Interestingly, an induction of expression of AOE was only seen in astrocytes. Here, manganese superoxide dismutase (MnSOD) expression was increased more than 3-fold and catalase expression was increased more than 1.5-fold. In brain stem neurons, MnSOD expression was dose dependently decreased. Copper-zinc superoxide dismutase and glutathione peroxidase, two other antioxidant enzymes that were investigated, did not show any changes in their mRNA expression in all three cell types after exposure to artemisinin.
posted
Paula, your right. I was poisoned by a quinolone and later by artemisia annua too. The reaction was quite similar. Wont touch that stuff again.
-------------------- Please dont suggest "ask your LLMD" because we dont have them here in this country... I just have to count on you fellow patients. Posts: 246 | From Finland | Registered: Dec 2006
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adamm
Unregistered
posted
So what are the names of the various quinolones, and, apart
from them and the artemisinins, are the any other classes of drugs
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
Adamm,
I hope you are able to work with a LLMD. Sometimes, you can call their office and ask for someone to run stuff by - or ask if they have any lastest research that you can read.
there are risks with many drugs, but a skilled doctor will be able to know your individual "stuff" (for lack of exact word) . . . your body make-up and the various diagnoses or symptoms
the LLMD would be informed as far as blending medicines.
and better able to interpret the literature such as vitro vs. vivo - human vs. animal, etc. and weigh all of the variables.
The inner ear system is extremely fragile to some drugs, so in addition to neurotoxicity, ototoxicity or vestibular toxic drugs are of concern. you can google and PubMed search "ototoxic" or "neurotoxic" with the drug's name each time you are considering something new.
that said, I know that many - if not most - of us can't get to doctors or afford them. so after the initial tests or a some time with a doctor we are forced to learn all that we can and at least, hopefully, check in with a good doctor now and then.
With the burden of having to learn ALL about this stuff, I am very thankful for this site where we can share, compare and hope.
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