posted
I am a new member here, and I have looked through quite a few posts. I havn't been able to find anyone that has cured themselves with JUST natural things, no antibiotics. Is there anyone out there that has attempted this? The reason I ask is because I am attempting it, and have(or had) a very severe case of lyme that spans from the age of 5 years old(I am 26 now). I have been treating mine for a year on only natural things. I took antibiotics for a week and quit...
Thanks, Noelle
Posts: 16 | From PA | Registered: Oct 2007
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My LLMD has me taking very high doses of olive leaf extract in capsule form for Lyme and Bartonella.
I started out taking 3 at breakfast, 3 at lunch, and 3 at dinner, and then I worked up to my tolerance--you'll know when you're losing tolerance for it. My tolerance is 15 capsules, spread out over meals.
I had bloodwork done which showed that my Bartonella is gone! We're now working on the Lyme. Though Lyme is more difficult to get rid of, my LLMD believes olive leaf extract will help!
Remember that you need the EXTRACT and not regular olive leaf. Extract is stronger. It's definitely worth a try! You can get it at a good price on www.vitacost.com
Gena
-------------------- "Never underestimate the power of a few committed people to change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead Posts: 290 | From New York | Registered: May 2007
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Wow, I will check into that, I remember taking olive leaf extract once and having the worst herx of my life. I wanted to check into a mental facility. So maybe it was killing Bartonella....
How long did you have to take it to get rid of the bartonella?
Noelle
Posts: 16 | From PA | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
One week of antibiotics?? How long do you want to be ill??
Just my humble opinion, but I think you need WAY more than that. Natural is OK, but Lyme is VERY DIFFICULT to clear. You need the big guns.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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bejoy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11129
posted
Hi Noelle,
Many people on this board have described dramatically improving their health using natural products.
The word cure is interesting. Some people say that the goal is to knock back the infection enough, and improve the immune system enough that your body can deal with the infection effectively.
I have had lyme and co-infections for 20 or 30 years, and was diagnosed ten months ago.
I have used mostly herbals, supplements, and homeopathics for about six months, and made great progress.
Try reading Buhner's Healing Lyme book. You can view it on Amazon.
You can also look at info on neuraltherapy.com for more information about some complementary therapies.
I added penicillin shots (also known as Bicillin) and flagyl in the last month, because I think it is a good treatment regimen to get lyme in the spirochete and cyst form.
What worked best for me was to get rid of co-infections, and knock back lyme using methods that are gentle on the digestive system, and then move in with antibiotics, to go after lyme some more.
I believe that Artemicin and homeopathics cleared my Bartonella and Babesia. I'm still working on lyme borrelia, but I'm feeling pretty good.
Personally, I wouldn't want to try to heal lyme without the help of a naturopth and some good herbs, supplements, and homeopathics.
I also wouldn't want to avoid using antibiotics, because they work, and lyme is one beast of a stealth bacteria! You just have to be so very careful to protect your digestive system in the process.
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
I have actually treated lyme for about a year, and have temporarily put lyme on the backburner(but still taking samento) to treat babesia.
I am taking sweet annie and astragalus combo and it is working quite well. I have been working with an herbalist. Here is the funny thing....she taught me body testing, so I can just ask my body things and it will answer me.
Of course if you persuade it with your own mind you won't get a truthful answer. Anyways, it has been a really useful tool for me.
Also, I have never had a problem killing the lyme, in fact, I have been herxing constantly for the last year(except for some breaks in between).
My main problem is the herxing is SOOO BAD that I don't want to kill it anymore. And believe me all I do is detox. I feel like I am trapped in a hole I can't get out of.
My story is so complicated....but basically I had been working with the same herbalist for 5 years on and off, and we treated dozens of other problems before lyme even showed up, or before I even had a clue I had lyme.
Her body testing showed I had lyme long before my blood test did(it took 3 blood tests to get it) so I truly do believe it works....
I am just confused, because I see many stories of people on antibiotics for years with no improvement.
Just my two cents, noelle
Posts: 16 | From PA | Registered: Oct 2007
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TheCrimeOfLyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4019
posted
Noelle,
I got better but I had to combine antibiotics with naturals to do it. Unfortunately, due to circumstances WAY beyond my control ( and other health issues genetic ones that popped up, and nothing to do with lyme), i backslid enough to jump back on antibiotics.
But, I will be adding back in buttloads of naturals and alternatives, again.
In MY case, alternatives brought me further than antibiotics, but I HAD to use antibiotics to kill off most of the infection. I dont know if that sounds right. Im herxing, but what I am trying to say
is that abx for me were a very very necessary evil. I had to use them, or else no alterative would have saved me. I would have been six foot under.
I used olive leaf extract with GREAT success in the past and will be using that again.
Have you tried chlorella and msm for herx reactions? I am going to try that. If it doesnt work, god bless me, because my herxes are getting out of hand and quickly.
-------------------- You want your life back? Take it. Posts: 3169 | From Greensburg, Pennsylvania | Registered: Jun 2003
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Many people feel that it's important to knock down the infection with abx first. If you can't tolerate abx there may be some detox procedures that you need to consider or you may need to change to a different abx.
I don't know your history but you could be dealing with other infections in addition to lyme such as one of the co-infections like babesia, bartonella, virus etc.. People who have been sick with lyme for a long time tend to pick up other infections as well.
My personal belief is that one has a better chance of getting well if they start with abx and go from there. I'm not advocating one over the other but using both in this very difficult infection or group of infections makes the most sense to me.
Due to the very complex nature of this beast, it makes a lot of sense to be evaluated and treated by an LLMD first. At least you have a better chance of identifying some of the factors that are causing your illness. They've seen many people like us.
My LLMD figured out that I don't detox lyme toxins very well. We've had to work very hard on that in order for me to handle treatments for killing the infections. I would not have known this without my LLMD. Without tetracyclines, my bartonella rash would not have shown up and we wouldn't know that is a factor too. Many other things along those lines apply.
You may find a few on here who have gotten well with no abx at all but I'd guess that the majority of people have had some abx.
If you decide not to use abx, please find an LLND who has some good experience with lyme or as stymie suggested in another thread, perhaps a chinese doctor would be good.
I've seen an ND who has lyme and treated herself with alternatives and she is able to work but still has problems. This can happen on abx too from what I've seen. I strongly beleive that if there is any way possible to get an LLMD, that's the best route. If that's not possible, then another knowledgable doctor who knows about lyme. The key is to find someone who knows what they are doing and can help you.
You will find many others on this list who have other opinions. Take it all in and make the best choice you know how to make. If you still aren't well after a period of time, re-evaluate.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Many posts showed up between the time I started my post and the time I hit the "add reply" button.
Noelle wrote: (but still taking samento) to treat babesia.
I don't think that taking samento is going to treat babesia. My ND treats many lyme patients and she said that if you have babesia, samento will not help you. I know that it is an immue system modulator so perhaps it can help in that respect?
Many people use artemisinin for babesia. Often many other things are needed - prescription meds.
That said, I use muscle testing and see an herbalist too. I find it a very valuable tool in my aresenal against lyme and co-infections. I still feel that I need abx but then I've been sick for many decades and that is only my opinion.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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Actually am taking wormwood and astragalus combo for babesia, and feeling painful herx.
But still taking samento for the lyme/bartonella (I have heard it works on bart, not sure though)
Noelle
Posts: 16 | From PA | Registered: Oct 2007
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
No such thing as "cure" IMHO.
THAT is a very strong word. Remission, yes, cure no. Except in a few very early caught Lyme cases, NOT like yours of 21 years.
AND one week of abx will maybe get rid of some of the symptoms, but certainly NOT cure or even put you in remission. Again MY opinion. But a pretty much educated guess, which I think will be at least 99.9% accurate.
I couldn't take abx much either, but I did have about 3 months of it all together, spread over time.
It has been the herbs though that have taken me from about 30% of what used to be my normal life to about 90% of it now. And I am old, so that is against me also. I am 66. And come from a family where my mother's side lives with terrible arthritis from about age 65 on.
I actually feel better on the arthritis side NOW than I did 8 to 10 years ago, BEFORE I got my Lyme.
You have to get "serious" with the herbal thing though, and I would strongly suggest buying the Stephen H. Buhner book, "Healing Lyme", from Amazon.com right to the left of this thread. It is cheap and full of wonderful information on HOW to heal Lyme, Naturally.
hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Noelle,
Do you do kinesiology by yourself?
I wrote my babesia and bartonella protocol sometime ago, only naturals. Both did the job, it seems.
If you're herxing a lot, I don't see the reason to look into abx. My own opinion. If I were not herxing/ improving, I would give abx a try, but not on the opposite.
Just check the length of babesia treatment, bartonella treatment here in lymenet, with abx or not, it takes time for most of us.
You're right, cleansing is a must. I was on 6-10 intakes of cleansers a day to stand herxes.
Do you use chlorella? MSM? Both saved my life from awful herxes. Babesia herxes are the worst, second fungi/ bartonella and the rest are 'bearable' in comparison.
Try testing cardamon seeds (in powder) for babesia cysts. I kept relapsing from babesia and cardamon did an excellent job on both killing cysts and cleansing (only muscle tested). You buy it in any natural food shop. I used it in my tea.
I did a combo of Noni tincture and cardamon seeds in powder for babesia cysts. This ended my eternal relapse on babesia.
I used loads of herbs for bartonella, babesia and mycoplasma, all protocols are written here, you have to do a search in Medical.
Herbs like gervao (rain-tree), phellodendron, gardenia were excellent for me, as well as cats claw, Japanese knotweed, eleuthero, frozen garlic. In the past, andrographis did miracles to me, but not in recent reinfection.
If you're doing muscle tests, or something else, could you share a website explaining how you do that? I do it by myself too, and found it a wonderful tool.
When I was done with lyme and co-infections, I continued treating fungal infections (prelyme). I discovered that cloves helped my lymph to keep moving in amazing ways. I wonder if I knew that during my herxes, if ingesting cloves would do some help. If you're able to test cloves during herxes, could you please give me a feedback?
Welcome! Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Selma, How do you use the cloves please?
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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I get you about wanting to check in to a mental facility on olive leaf extract! It was pretty rough.
My LLMD had me take it for 3 weeks to tolerance and then I had bloodwork that showed the Bartonella was gone. I had a moderate infection before.
I took a couple weeks off (couldn't take the stuff anymore!) and now I'm back on and it isn't quite as bad. My LLMD has said that Bartonella is a BAD infection. It causes a lot of depression!!
-------------------- "Never underestimate the power of a few committed people to change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead Posts: 290 | From New York | Registered: May 2007
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bejoy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11129
posted
I have had the most success with coinfections from about year of artemisin (with occasional breaks to detox,) andrographis, and teasel root.
Cats claw never tested positive for me, and the few times I tried it I herxed badly on three drops a day.
Bartonella and Lym remedies from Deseret Biologicals were very powerful. I am about to start a Borrelia remedy that they make.
Probably the most effective substance I have used against lyme is bee venom ointment. I got the most improvement from my neuro symptoms from this. I still take a small amount of this daily on my skin.
I think highly of the body testing/kinesiology process. Most of my decisions are based on hours of research followed up by testing myself and being tested by a professional. I'm glad it is working for you!
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
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hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Terry, I just eat the cloves as they are (dried). I started with one clove 3 times a day, I leave it melt slowly in my mouth, it'll get soft and then I keep chewing it until I can swallow it.
It's amazing to see my hands that were a bit swollen. The effect of srhinking is almost visible in my case.
In the end (after a month or so) I was taking 4 cloves 4-5 times a day, but I would start slow.
It also helped one root infection of my tooth and fungal infections on my feet (but on the higher doses).
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Hi, Noelle -
I'm attempting to go the 'natural route', too - primarily with homeopathic remedies. Like you, I've probably had Lyme since I was a kid and I've only been at this for a year. Some people have to stay on antibiotics for several years so I don't expect alternative therapies to necessarily do any better or work any faster. There is always hope for new discoveries, though.
Selma asked a great question:
***``If you're doing muscle tests, or something else, could you share a website explaining how you do that?''***
I would love to learn more about this!! I think there have been some previous threads explaining a bit about this, but I don't remember seeing any links to websites about how to learn this yourself.
It seems like Selma explained her method briefly on one thread, but I can't seem to find it.
I'm going to start a new thread about learning to muscle test yourself and hope for some participation.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
To everyone who was wondering about muscle testing!
I have about five different ways I muscle test/and or ask my body questions.
The best one I have found so far is this....
Take the third finger of your right hand, and put the tip of this finger on top of the nail of your second finger.
Practice pushing down and asking questions. Say show me yes, and you should get a strong or weak response.
For example, my yes is weak, which means when my third finger is pushing on my second finger, my second finger pushes down easily. And my no is the opposite, it is strong and I can't push it down.
The neatest way I have learned to muscle test is the sticky finger test. If you rub the pad of your thumb and second fingers together, and say show me yes, it should be either smooth or sticky.
sticky feels like friction, and makes it hard to rub the fingers back and forth
Smooth is just that, you shouldn't feel anything!
This way is kind of tricky though because your hands have to be clean and not clammy. But I enjoy using this one alot because it's and inconspicuous.
Noelle
Posts: 16 | From PA | Registered: Oct 2007
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Noelle:
WHICH do you count as your THIRD finger?
Is your second finger your middle finger, or is it your ring finger? Or are you counting your thumb as one of your fingers also.
I can't put my ring finger on top of my middle finger, but can do vice versa.
Jim ###
quote:Originally posted by noelle: To everyone who was wondering about muscle testing!
I have about five different ways I muscle test/and or ask my body questions.
The best one I have found so far is this....
Take the third finger of your right hand, and put the tip of this finger on top of the nail of your second finger.
Practice pushing down and asking questions. Say show me yes, and you should get a strong or weak response.
For example, my yes is weak, which means when my third finger is pushing on my second finger, my second finger pushes down easily. And my no is the opposite, it is strong and I can't push it down.
The neatest way I have learned to muscle test is the sticky finger test. If you rub the pad of your thumb and second fingers together, and say show me yes, it should be either smooth or sticky.
sticky feels like friction, and makes it hard to rub the fingers back and forth
Smooth is just that, you shouldn't feel anything!
This way is kind of tricky though because your hands have to be clean and not clammy. But I enjoy using this one alot because it's and inconspicuous.
posted
Don't think the sticky finger test will work with us older people though, as our fingers are so dry that they just slip. As you will find out when you get older.
Also, So which means no and which means yes on the sticky finger test?
Sorry, I am counting the thumb as finger 1, so it is the pad of your middle finger that you use to push down on the nail of your index(2nd)finger.
When using sticky finger test, or the one described above, you have to say to your body out loud, "show me yes" and then rub your fingers, or push your finger(as described above) and see if it stays strong or goes weak.
and then "show me no".....your body will tell you which is which, and also it can change from day to day, so always check that before testing anything!
Let me know if it works for you!
Noelle
Posts: 16 | From PA | Registered: Oct 2007
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Hey, Noelle -
I've created a new thread just for people who wish to learn more about self-testing. It would be great if you could `copy and paste' your instructions here over onto the new thread. Or, if you wish, I will be happy to re-post it over there (with your permission, of course). Here's the link to the new thread:
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Okay, Noelle, I can do that. Many don't consider the thumb a finger, so I was confused. I may try it tomorrow, and see what happens. WHY do you have to say it out loud? Why not just concentrate and THINK it? Then you don't have to worry about the demons hearing, as they can't read your thoughts.
Jim. ###
quote:Originally posted by noelle: Jimbob,
Sorry, I am counting the thumb as finger 1, so it is the pad of your middle finger that you use to push down on the nail of your index(2nd)finger.
When using sticky finger test, or the one described above, you have to say to your body out loud, "show me yes" and then rub your fingers, or push your finger(as described above) and see if it stays strong or goes weak.
and then "show me no".....your body will tell you which is which, and also it can change from day to day, so always check that before testing anything!
quote:Originally posted by noelle: I am a new member here, and I have looked through quite a few posts. I havn't been able to find anyone that has cured themselves with JUST natural things, no antibiotics. Is there anyone out there that has attempted this? The reason I ask is because I am attempting it, and have(or had) a very severe case of lyme that spans from the age of 5 years old(I am 26 now). I have been treating mine for a year on only natural things. I took antibiotics for a week and quit...
Thanks, Noelle
I have had lyme for a long time,too-but have only been treated for since 2006.
I go to a homeopathic LLMD who treats with both antibioitcs and herbs.
It's a good combination to have in a doctor and for the treatment of Lyme Disease.
heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
hi noelle! welcome.
i too am treating totally naturally, for now.
i have to agree with selma; are you taking lots of binders?? they help SO MUCH with herx reactions: chlorella, MSM, destroxin, pectin, and i'm sure there are others. when herxing really badly you can take these in loads and you will feel so much better.
quote:Originally posted by heiwalove: hi noelle! welcome.
i too am treating totally naturally, for now.
i have to agree with selma; are you taking lots of binders?? they help SO MUCH with herx reactions: chlorella, MSM, destroxin, pectin, and i'm sure there are others. when herxing really badly you can take these in loads and you will feel so much better.
Yes, Heiwa, there ARE other binders and support herbs.
Buhner recommends Sarsaparilla to keep down the herxes. He also recommends Red Root tincture to keep your Lymph system from loading up so bad. IF you keep your system FROM loading up, you won't get into trouble to begin with.
I use both of them, AND I also use Milk Thistle along WITH them. The last time I was tested, my liver came through with flying colors. Excellent!
Like the old saying goes: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".
I actually started on chlorella and it seems to be helping, but I am a little worried about the chlorella being tainted itself with heavy metals.
I couldn't find a brand that said it was lab tested to be free of metals, so I don't know if they even have that kind.
Am I worrying too much? I just remember reading quite a few times that this can happen. I am taking Yaeyama for right now.
I wish I could take more binders, but I am running out of money. Everything costs so much and there is so much a lyme person needs.
I remember talking to one of my friends with advanced lyme, and she told me lyme is 20,000 dollar disease....
to get over if your going to do it naturally(probably about the same even if your doing it medically if you really think about it)
That Sucks, Noelle
Posts: 16 | From PA | Registered: Oct 2007
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bejoy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11129
posted
I like E-lyte chlorella, because it is grown in glass rather than outdoors, so it has a low risk for mercury contamination.
You can buy it on line straight from the company.
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
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