"Growth Characteristics of Bartonella henselae in a New Novel Liquid Medium"
His first antibiotic was IV Rocephin -- took us 3 months to do a normal 2 month course. During that time frame and for the next 4 or 5 months hubby suffered from hepatic encephalopathy due to elevated blood ammonia.
At the time his PCP found elevated levels of Klebsiella and several other G.I. bacteria which are ammonia producing. Levels of the 4 or 5 different bacteria were only slightly elevated.
The symptoms hubby had were confusion and gait ataxia following meals with lots of protein.
Dr B put hubby on Levaquin for a clinically diagnosed Bart infection. Blood ammonia levels returned to normal and hepatic encephalopathy symptoms went away. Symptoms started returning after 1 month on Levaquin so did an additional 2 months of Levaquin.
The referenced journal article says that Bartonella produce ammonia.
And the second astounding finding is that the growth requirements of Bartonella include glutamine. When hubby first got sick he was already taking supplemental l-glutamine as a preventative for gastritis. He stopped this within a few weeks of getting sick as it seemed to make him feel worse.
Hubby went on to develop severe gastritis -- entire stomach uniformly red from top to bottom -- and he lost 30 pounds and was reduced to eating baby food when he could eat. Several alternative docs tried hubby on various protein type meal replacement drinks -- most have very high glutamine concentrations.
When hubby tried these it would either cause dry heaves or make him shake. We just thought the drinks were irritating to the stomach and eventually gave up on them.
In September of this year when hubby once again got gastritis after taking low dose Zithromax for 3 days I once again tried him on protein drinks. These were from a health food store and not quite so concentrated. Do think hubby started doing better when he was able to move on to soup and soft food and decreased the number of protein drinks.
Waited a couple of weeks and started on low dose l-glutamine. With everything else that was going on symptom-wise I really couldn't tell how hubby was handling the glutamine, but gastritis obviously was not healing.
The more I read and review hubby's case the more convinced I am that the Bartonella is a major major issue. And it seems pretty evident that it is in both his brain and G.I.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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I have read about ammonia as a waste product of these things dieing as well.
I read on this forum (think it was Lymenet) about L-Glutamine taken orally. Something about the synthesis that was not beneficial to the nervous system when digested.
Someone with experience please interject.
I have had great experience with IV Glutathione and `Immune drips' including fairly high doses of vit C. It was/is Windex for my brain, very good detoxing agents.
Aside from `normal' detox, I was told it benefited the nervous system and the ability of the agents to reach the brain and take care of the ammonia.
Have you had any experience with this kind of treatment?
You both remain in my prayers.
Posts: 47 | From morgantown, wv | Registered: Feb 2007
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minoucat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5175
posted
Bea -- fascinating. A lymie friend of mine has been dx with excess levels ammonia and is now attempting to remove it under the guidance of a ND (recommended by her LLMD).
I'll see that she gets a copy of this article -- I don't think bart has ever been mentioned to her in this context. She attempted bart tx a while ago, but oral Cipro was way too much for her and she had to stop.
I'm not sure what her ammonia-removal protocol is, but I can find out if you think it might help?
Saw your update about hubby in the hospital. Personally, I think he should bite the Neuro -- oh, but then he'd have to be attached for 24 hours before it did any good. Bad idea--no knowing what horrid illnesses the Neuro might pass on (contagious arrogance, terminal ignorance, denial-of-observable-evidencitis.... )
-------------------- ********************* RECIDITE, PLEBES! Gero rem imperialem! (Stand aside plebians! I am on imperial business.)
Have not had hubby's blood ammonia levels tested recently, but based on symptomatology don't think they are extremely elevated right now.
At the time his liver enzymes were perfectly normal and he was taking milk thistle. His PCP could not understand why the ammonia levels were so high if his liver was working up to par. Then we found the G.I. bacteria and thought maybe that explained it, but I really think the Rocephin knocked down the Lyme and that the Bart came out.
He tried several things from an alternative doc to try to lower the ammonia levels 3 years ago before getting to Dr B and the Levaquin. The alternative things did not work at that time.
If he has any more episodes of mental confusion then I will definitely request a test for blood ammonia. Have tested this from time to time and it has never been elevated since the Levaquin.
Prior to becoming ill with tickborne diseases hubby had positive experiences with l-glutamine helping heal gastritis -- when he was treating his mercury toxicity it was beneficial.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Hubby was actually using IV glutathione at the time of the elevated blood ammonia levels. Did not help. He has used this detox product consistently for the last 4 years. Sometimes seems helpful and other times don't notice much difference. One doc told hubby he felt like his glutathione requirement was so high he would almost need to drink the stuff to get enough in him.
Hubby also does IV Vitamin C. When he did the IV Rocephin we actually did daily IV Vitamin C drips at home for about the last month of the Rocephin. Gave hubby lots of energy, but did nothing for the elevated blood ammonia. Since then we have done once or twice weekly Vitamin C drips for the last 4 years.
The brain can convert glutamine to glutamate which is an excitatory neurotransmitter. There used to be a long thread on here about this. If you search with the terms NMDA receptor there are a couple of links -- somewhat technical.
The glutamine/glutamate issue is why many Lymies have bad reactions to MSG -- monosodium glutamate.
At the time hubby first got sick he tested extremely low in all amino acids which would be expected if one was not eating much protein. In most situations the stomach would use up all the glutamine from foods and even protein drinks to help in healing. Did not work that way for hubby though. It was like he was feeding the Bart and making the G.I. tract more inflamed.
Bea Seibert
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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minoucat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5175
posted
Bea -- spoke with the woman who has the high ammonia levels today.
She was fascinated by this article and is taking it to her LLMD. She has extremely low glutamine levels (has never taken glutamate or glutamine) AND has very low histadine levels.
The article mentions histadine as one of the amino acids used in the bartonella life-cycle. Histadine is a major mercury and heavy metal chelator, a neurotransmitter, plays a significant role in the immune system, gastric system, and other key functions. Low levels have been associated with MCS, arthritis, anxiety, and other stuff.
Anyway, given your husband's history of mercury poisoning and whatnot, I thought the histadine angle could be significant as well.
-------------------- ********************* RECIDITE, PLEBES! Gero rem imperialem! (Stand aside plebians! I am on imperial business.)
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Just a thought, gastritis or ulcers could be caused by H-Pylori. This bacteria has a tendency to elevate ammonia levels in the body. A better description of how it does this is in the following link,
BTW, I've had 2 people where I work diagnosed with it. The test is to do endoscopy and pull a byopsy of cells from the stomach and culture it to see if bacteria shows up. It might be something to ask the Dr. about.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
Interesting ... I wish I could mentally process all this.
I was clinically diagnosed with bart ... I had severe GI symptoms -- including klebsiella and citrobacter ... also a tapeworm! I also had such bad cognitive symptoms that we were talking about a PICC line and IV meds because my LLMD was not happy with my progress.
We tried 3 months of Levaquin first ... I also did Humaworm (it specifically will go after klebsiella and citrobacter ... those bacteria are mentioned on their website). ALL my GI symptoms are gone! I was practically living on protein shakes (whey protein with fruit).
What is interesting to me is that both potato chips and cheese curls (I'm addicted to the Wild Oats ones, LOL) have NEVER bothered my stomach. I never understood why that was when a piece of meat and some veggies would have me in pain ... perhaps it was because of the carbs not feeding the bart!
My cognitive symptoms are improving, but everything is flaring right now because I have a bad head cold. The good news is, the GI symptoms are NOT flaring!
I'll come back and read this when I can process it better.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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oxygenbabe
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posted
Maybe it's the bart producing ammonia, maybe not. Fungal organisms also produce ammonia byproducts.
Amy Yasko recommends yucca, charcoal and larix to clear up/mop up ammonia.
You're right about glutamine/glutamate. I've always instinctively avoided glutamine powder stuff. You can research the herb shrubby sophora, which downregulates glutamate. Also, quit any source of calcium, and up his magnesium (glutamate is the gun and calcium the bullet, which magnesium reversibly inhibits, per a DVD from Amy Yasko). The ativan helps glutamate toxicity of course, by upping his gaba. The supplement Zen from ARG might help.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
Welcome to Lymie in MD! New member!
Bea... thanks for sharing the good article. Hope you and yours have a good new year!
posted
My daughter recently was tested for sulfur level, which was very high. Has anyone had any experience with this? Her LLMD put her on Nanotek Chittosan. We are convinced that bart has been her biggest problem from the begining.
Seiber, thanks for sharing this information. Another piece of the puzzle.
Posts: 422 | From Herndon, Virginia | Registered: Oct 2005
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TerryK
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Member # 8552
The article gives some remedies for removing ammonia. I've been using l-ornithine for years to remove ammonia.
I hope things are better for you guys Bea.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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D Bergy
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Member # 9984
posted
There is not that many bacteria that can inflame the stomach. I would treat for H-Pylori. I had the same type of stomach inflammation and had three different tests that came up negative for H-Pylori.
Finally after the endoscopy and seeing the pictures I decided to treat for H-Pylori with my Rife machine and it completely resolved that problem. Frequency 676 for 5 minutes a day for six days. The relief will be immediate after treatment, but it takes several days to get it all.
There are also other ways to get rid of it, but this was the easiest for me since I had the machine already.
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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SForsgren
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posted
There was an article in the Townsend Report on Lyme that Dr. D.J. wrote on ammonia as a major issue in LD and how he addresses it.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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tailz
Unregistered
posted
Before a round of minocycline, asparagus was one of my 'safe' foods - possibly because it removes ammonia. I ate asparagus a few days ago and almost died. Does mino kill bart?
On the bright side, I've been able to add carrots, honey, and cinnamon to my peas since starting artemisinin. Yay.
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jamescase20
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posted
I know this sounds wacked but I believe benzos even the "nonbenzo benzos IE ambien) set off a detox cycle in the brain ONLY to remove ammonia to the outer side of the BBB so the liver can remove it. Your blood ammonia level will rise but only because the ammonia gets dumped into the blood rather the fester in the brain. Others on this board have stated xanax or klonapin gave them next day energy after the sedation wore off. I am on ambein and I feel better on it and my muscle cramps diminish greatly and my daytime fatigue drops dramatically. Even helps my bart detox headaches.
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Truthfinder
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posted
So, does this really mean that supplementing with amino acids feeds the Bart?
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I have Bartonella in the gut and nervous system and this could be my story too word for word. I would very much like to know about any ammonia-removal protocol, and would be greatful if you can find out as it will help. I did try molybendum without success. I do have ornithine but do not know how much to take or when? Lisa
Posts: 67 | From cape cod | Registered: Aug 2006
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jamescase20
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posted
I am going to take some more ambien now.
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quote:Originally posted by jamescase20: I know this sounds wacked but I believe benzos even the "nonbenzo benzos IE ambien) set off a detox cycle in the brain ONLY to remove ammonia to the outer side of the BBB so the liver can remove it.
Could you give me some refs that support this notion? When you say "I believe benzos..." what are you basing this on?
I am very interested in why you came to that conclusion because I too have noticed some amazing positive effects on my brain with the use of ambien and also with klonopin.
Nelly
Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001
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