posted
After a month of using the pills given to me by my ART-testing chiropractor, I got sicker than I ever have in my life. He said, "You might get worse before you get better" but these seems like overkill.
Before using these supplements, I was doing reasonably okay and living relatively normally for being sick with lyme. I was going to college full time, working a little, and even though I was sick, I didn't feel like I was going to die.
After a month of getting steadily worse, I went to the medical doctor to check out my problems with severe abdominal pain, nausea, diarrhea, etc. It's really bad.
At the end of the month, I quit the chiropractor protocol. I went off the program 2 weeks before it was supposed to have killed off all the pathogens in my gut. However, the problem was I thought it might kill me before it killed off all the pathogens. The doctors in the office seemed to be pretty pushy about their stuff too, which I was uncomfortable about.
What went wrong? What would all of you have done? Gigi, what happened to me? I thought this ART stuff worked?
Posts: 204 | From Wyoming | Registered: Feb 2003
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tdtid
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10276
posted
Could you tell me what the chiropractor protocol is? I'm not familar with this one. You seem to be using it with ART-testing, but I don't understand how the chiropractor fits in. Thanks for any help.
Cathy
-------------------- "To Dream The Impossible Dream" Man of La Mancha Posts: 2638 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
The chiropractor uses ART testing to determine where my body is weak. After a certain number of pulses, my arm collapses. Based on where my body was weak, he chose supplements for me.
He did not test the supplements on my body, he just tested my body to find out what I needed.
The "chiropractor protocol", simply put, is the supplement list he chose for me based on my ART testing.
Posts: 204 | From Wyoming | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
What kind of supplements did this protocol include?
-------------------- Please dont suggest "ask your LLMD" because we dont have them here in this country... I just have to count on you fellow patients. Posts: 246 | From Finland | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Supplements from Standard Process, Inc. Things like Zymex II, Catalyn, Adrenal Dessicated, Min-Chex, etc.
Posts: 204 | From Wyoming | Registered: Feb 2003
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ByronSBell 2007
Unregistered
posted
Food allergies or food intollerances woud be something to look into!
Alot of lyme people get food allergies when they are sick from the damage the bacteria and antibiotics do.
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
MissExtreme,
" After a certain number of pulses, my arm collapses. "
I am sorry that I do not recognize your description as being ART = Autonomic Response Testing.
If the chiropractor assisted in setting too many toxins free by the type of manipulations or "touches" he/she did, with the added killing agents, etc., which happens often, you did probably not get the proper supporting remedies or treatments along with it. Physical therapies of most kinds tend to do that. Some can really start an avalanche of toxins that make one feel like dying. The therapy is not a bad therapy. But before and after should not be forgotten.
Support, support. Only mobilizing toxins into clogged pathways, without any other supporting remedies, is so wrong and will make you feel horrible. You are mobilizing many toxins.
Colonics, lymphatic drainage, binding agents (chlorella, destroxin, pectin, cholestyramine, fiber with liquids, and charcoal when it really feels bad - it grabs toxins but also the good minerals - so only a few days). And a lot of liquid minerals that are easily absorbed. Quitting the killing agents for a while and only helping to get the "debris" out of the body. Bathing, foot baths, chi machine, "shaking", trampoline, whatever you can handle physically. The only reason we feel miserable is that we are retaining it, the garbage, somewhere in the body.
That's what I learned.
It's like a clogged up freeway. You don't ever get to your destination.
And getting off this board will help. It is at times more toxic than the local landfill. Don't get addicted to it. Try something you really enjoy - a walk around the block or a song.
Just wondering why you call yourself "extreme". I also often wonder why people call themselves "Lyme...something" -- it's like a permanent sticker --- why?? Reinforcement.
Take care.
Sharing what I learned.
[ 05. November 2007, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: GiGi ]
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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daise
Unregistered
posted
Hi,
Some supplement manufacturers make bad news products. Maybe that's why you are so miserable.
You mentioned "adrenal dessicated." As a supplement, most especially by a bad news manufacturer, your "adrenal dessicated" probably means dessicated (sort of powdered) animal adrenal gland. Hold on! Wait a minute: some of these are manufactured so crappy they can cause harm.
Was the animal adrenal gland properly processed? Because it's meat--in a supplement. Where was it manufactured?
I take Armour Thyroid-- a prescription --which is dessicated pigs thyroid. However, for over a century Armour has pioneered safe practices in making this meat product, safe. They've never had a case of contamination.
But supplement manufacturers are not regulated. Was your supplement contaminated?
I've never tried an adrenal dessicated product or any supplement from a meat origin, due to possible contamination. Even meat in the supermarkets is regulated (mostly!)
If this is the case, then you need emergency medical attention--NOW.
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
My experience is that a person is usually re-tested at intervals and if one is experiencing problems, I would expect to be re-tested at that time and some adjustments made to help deal with some of the issues that GIGI mentioned or with whatever issues might be causing one to feel so bad. Maybe you would still feel bad but I would expect them to at least try to adjust your program based on how you are feeling.
So much of the success of muscle testing relies on the expertise of the tester.
Standard process is a well known, high quality brand that is only sold through health care professionals. I can't guarantee that their brand is free of problems but I would be surprised based on my own experience with their products.
I hope you feel better soon.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
i'm so sorry you're going through this.
i tend to agree with GiGi on this one. did your practitioner give or recommend cleansers/binding agents to support the protocol? my ART practitioner would be SERIOUSLY, SERIOUSLY worried if i said i felt like i was about to die on the remedies she prescribed. her goal is to get me better with the least amount of herxing possible. this is achieved not only by accurately ART testing supplements/herbs/etc and exact amounts, but taking an arsenal of cleansing and binding agents ALL THE TIME, to mop up the toxins you are killing. otherwise you are sure to feel like death.
it doesn't sound to me like your chiropractor is sensitive enough to your needs as a patient. indeed, i would find a different practitioner, if at all possible.
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Standard Process is one of the best, is what I again heard at a recent conference where many, many different products are talked about, by many participants.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Hubby took many Standard Process supplements for 3 or 4 months during the first year he was sick (undiagnosed illness at the time). The chiropractor used muscle testing to pick the supplements. Unfortunately these products did nothing for hubby. Can't remember any negative side effects, but definitely no positive effects.
Supplements did include glandular adrenal pills -- can't remember the exact name of the product.
Hubby has had better luck with regular nutritional supplements.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Obviously you have never had to fight docs for acceptance of your diagnosis if you think including the word Lyme in a person's internet identity is a negative thing.
I personally think it is a sign of strength of character in identifying with a disease which is not "politically correct."
I do not personally have Lyme, but I admire the many activists who work for others who are too sick to fight the injustices of the current healthcare system.
To me it is a positive thing to take control of one's own health and destiny -- anyone who accepts the label Lymie is taking back their life from the docs who would control their future with an incorrect diagnosis or no diagnosis at all.
Not all labels are bad.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200
posted
quote:Originally posted by GiGi: And getting off this board will help. It is at times more toxic than the local landfill. Don't get addicted to it. Try something you really enjoy - a walk around the block or a song.
Just wondering why you call yourself "extreme". I also often wonder why people call themselves "Lyme...something" -- it's like a permanent sticker --- why?? Reinforcement.
It's my experience that the delightful Ms. Extreme is actually not on this board very much at all. Last I heard, she's "extreme" in her activism for lyme. What on earth makes you think she doesn't talk long walks around the block?
Ms. Extreme, while I am the first to admit I don't know anything about muscle testing, I have read there is a world of difference in practitioners. Perhaps yours is not good? A double blind study indicated that among three experienced testers checking for nutritional deficiencies among 11 subjects, the results were comparable to random guessing. PubMed Citation
Not criticizing your choice to use alternative medicine, however, if you feel that poorly I would definitely think about finding a different LLMD to guide your care.. Do NOT make the mistake of blaming yourself.
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Bea, I can't believe you said this:
"Obviously you have never had to fight docs for acceptance of your diagnosis if you think including the word Lyme in a person's internet identity is a negative thing.
I personally think it is a sign of strength of character in identifying with a disease which is not "politically correct."
*************************************************
Bea,
It seems to me that you are misunderstanding what I said.
I had Lyme Disease. I no longer have Lyme Disease. I am cured from Lyme Disease. My husband has Parkinsonism caused by heavy metal toxicity and Lyme Disease. Many of the symptoms that you have described over the years my husband had.
We both have had to fight like hell to make it known during the many ER and hospital stays that he had Lyme Disease. Do not for one minute think my life, our Lyme life was simple. I simply do not publicize my pain, his suffering. We fought every inch of the way trying to get away from having to pay $16,000 for one person a month for IV antibiotics and to have Medicare take on their share. There were two of us that needed it and much more.
Please understand that I am an activist for Lyme in my own way, and so is my husband. Nobody whom we have had contact with, from the plumber doing repair in our house to the mailman, to every possible bystander; to the Dean of the Infectious Disease Department of the University of Washington missed hearing about Lyme and the horror. My activism shows in different ways, more in line with my doctor's opinion regarding Lyme Disease. I do not have to repeat that opinion here because you can read it in most of my posts and I told you the same when you called me a long time ago.
It has in recent time reached the point where Dr. B. and others agree in many ways with Dr. K's opinion, and their patients are hearing about it. Dr. B. and others along with Dr. K. are meeting in''think tanks'' discussing the subject of chronic disease, as I recently reported after such a meeting.
I am also very careful what I call myself and what I call my children or grandchildren. That goes back to my upbringing: - Where I come from, the miller used to grind grain and his name was Miller or Mueller. The person who repaired and made shoes got stuck with the family name Shoemaker. I do not want Lyme to become my identity and therefore not my name. The body follows the brain. I become what I think I am. I do not want to be a known as a Lymie forever. I wanted to conquer that disease and I did. That was my aim. And that is why I brought up the question. If I tell myself long enough I have a miserable life, it will become just that. That is my philosophy. I am glad you picked up on that.
But, please, do not ever accuse me for not recognizing Lyme as what it really is and that I do not do my part in fighting the wrong. I do go about it in a different way and in a way I feel it has a positive effect --- I do it my way!
But if I am asked further about Lyme and get the next question ``from just a tickbite???????'' I have to tell the whole story. My answer is, as many of the LLMD's are now starting to concede: Lyme is more often than not a multifactorial disease. My husband did not get heavy metal toxic from a tickbite - he got it from heavy metal exposure. I can't keep living in denial and saying this is not so ---- .
That in no way takes anything away from the seriousness of the Lyme infection and that such a thing exists. I know it exists because the tickbite put me into a wheelchair. Getting out of the wheelchair was a different matter - it took me to go through intensive heavy metal removal and detox for years before my body was able to finally also conquer the Lyme and other microbial infections that persisted until I got control of the environmental toxicities.
I was not in a wheelchair before I got bit by an insect/tick. No doubt, Lyme is bad news, but it rarely has no other players.
By the way, I distinctly thought of you when I first read Missextreme's post about her reaction to a chiropractic treatment. I remember your telling this board many months ago that your husband received a type of physical-hands-on neuro-something therapy (can't recall the exact name of it), after which he did not feel better, but worse. Both my husband and I have had identical experiences with similar therapies which always came down to ``too much toxin mobilized'' which the body could not handle and therefore felt bad and worse. With the same treatments, with the proper support before and after, we got through them, improving as we went along.
I also have had to lift up my husband's legs, one or the other, up the curb or along the level floor, to take a step, a single step, similarly as you told you have had to do. I pulled him flat on the floor by his arms to get him somehow to the bathroom! I am a little person. It went much further than that to where nothing on his body was movable any longer, not on his own nor by me - he was totally immobilized, stiff as a corpse. Only the heart was still working.
So never think because you don't hear me cry that everything in our Lyme-Metals experience was honey and roses. It got to the point where my husband fractured his back and lived in a metal body cage for four months. We too are on Medicare and we live on Social Security and a tiny pension.
Believe me that my activism for Lyme recognition is very real. Read the above again if you don't.
So please rest assured, my activism is real -- really real. However, I do it my way! No, I do not want to call myself ``Lyme-`` to make it a solidly permanent part of our life. I know and believe that I am, what I think I am - I am not a lifelong Lymie. My name is not even GiGi - my name is Gudrun
I am truly sorry what you have to go through. Please feel free to call me again any time.
Take care.
P.S. By the way, my husband is still on a steady and safe heavy metal detox program after sulfa release (LED). Some people take longer to release it.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Cobweb
Unregistered
posted
GiGi said-"I had Lyme Disease. I no longer have Lyme Disease. I am cured from Lyme Disease." Powerful statement-that's great.
I was wondering if long term antibiotics had any role in your ability to say this?
How did you verify a cure?
I'm only asking about long term antibiotics. What did you take and for how long?
Glad you provided more details reagarding you and your husband's Lyme treatments. From reading many of your posts I had the impression that you had received very little antibiotics for the Lyme. Don't take this personally, but sometimes it has seemed to me like you made your treatments sound so easy. Many people have a hard time believing things that sound too good to be true.
I am all for detox treatments -- and aware that what works for one person may not work for another. The problem is in knowing what will work for each individual person.
I am glad you trust Dr K -- unfortunately (maybe because of my background as an accountant) I have difficulty accepting various treatments based on faith alone. I like to see test results or some reasonably scientific explanation as to why things work. On the other hand there is much about the human body that is unknown.
I am truly glad that you and your husband have recovered your health. Keep standing up for what you believe in. There are way too many people in the world who are afraid to take a stand on any issue.
The Bartonella meds seem to finally be helping and hubby may have turned the corner in his most recent crisis. The power of prayer led us in this direction. Hubby still has a long way to go, but I am confident we will prevail.
Best wishes.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
I've always thought that one husbands illness reminded of anothers on this board.
Gigi, I personally realize there was nothing easy about your journey through and beyond. I still have a thread printed off that you wrote back in '03. It is titled something like "therapies I've done". I need to look through my folders and bring it up, if it's still in the archives of this site.
It started me thinking and setting goals about what else I needed to do besides abx to get where you are today.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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Pocono Lyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5939
posted
Thank You Bea for responding so well as many of us can't for whatever reason.
And GIGI, what a great name BTW, I'm sorry you think I labeled myself as my name is Pocono Lyme, but you have no idea what I've been through and when I finally figured out how to register,
I WAS TOO COGNITIVELY IMPAIRED TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING ACCEPTABLE TO YOU. Sorry! This to me is "toxic".
Pocono Lyme and PROUD of it.
-------------------- 2 Corinthians 12:9-11
9 But he said to me, �My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.� Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ�s power may rest on me. Posts: 1445 | From Poconos, PA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ann-OH
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2020
posted
Sorry you are feeling so rotten, Ms Extreme.
I have lots of questions and no time to look up the answers. Anyone know:
What is ART?
Who came up with this?
What conditions was it used for originally?
When did they start saying it was proper treatement for Lyme disease?
And why would a chiropracter be involved with it?
What kind of training has he/she had to know about what supplements are useful?
Where?
And is the chiropracter selling those supplements?
How does he/she protect from law suits?
The whole thing sounds pretty risky not only for the patient but for the chiropracter.
I have a wonderful chiropracter who keeps me able to walk, but he would never go for this.
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Cobweb, you asked
"I was wondering if long term antibiotics had any role in your ability to say this?" etc. ***************************************************
ABX were part of my treatment. I had a total of 6-8 months (2.5 months IV Roc initially, then .5 mo oral) when I was released as 'healed' from IDMD. I found my doc even though I was in a fog! ART verified that I was not compatible with any abx at that point. We switched to getting metals moving and garlic and some other antimicrobials, whatever I tested positive for when testing any with ART. I never took anything I did not test for energetically.
Over the following years, I tested for only very brief periods for different types of abx, never again for rocephin. I had some shortterm abx, such as Biaxin, Rifampin, Amantadine - never longer than 2-3-4 weeks at a time, because I stopped testing positive (with ART) for the respective ones after taking them for short sessions. I wanted to get well, so I did what my body wanted to do.
My total intake of abx amounted to 6-8 months distributed over five years.
I consider it longterm. My body said -- 'long enough'.
How did you verify a cure?
The same way as I knew I was sick. Lab tests eventually confirmed that I was sick. Lab tests turned negative quite some time before I was feeling well. I kept treating following ART (Autonomic Response Testing). I stopped testing positive with ART (i.e. that I did not need them) for any agents that normally treat Lyme and all other microbial infections. That was the second sign. The first sign was that I started to feel great, and today I feel marvelous and better than I ever did before I unloaded dis-ease-inviting dental work, dental toxins, and heavy metals, as well as many other and emotional toxins I had acumulated over a lifetime. I was treated following the philosophy I have posted here several times "The Five Levels of Healing". Everything from biochemistry to structure to emotions is addressed.
I will be 76 years old next month. I would say - whatever I did worked for me. And I am not the only successful person that followed this route. They never posted here or stopped posting.
I hope this explains.
Oh, yes, I also often take apple cider vinegar with honey! But I do not use chlorox in my house and I avoid all mineral oils -- my aim is to stay healthy for many years to come. It takes a bit of discipline at times, but it is do-able.
Good luck to you.
Take care.
Sharing my experiences.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
Miss X, I am sorry it didn't work for you. I am an extreme person, too, and am glad I am. I used to have a Mohawk (pre Nirvana pop punk)while getting straight As in college- being extreme can be fun!*)!)*!
I would not keep going to that office- it does not sound like a good place to go.
Pocono Lyme, I agree with you. I love your name. MassLyme is the most wonderful activist I know. VermontLyme is just an awesome person, too. And CanLyme- wow- powerhouse of activism!!!
Lyme has been my greatest spiritual teacher. I give thanks for the gifts of enlightenment I have received through my suffering. Truly. When I was in agony, when I was getting prgoressively weaker and was bedridden, I was the most spiritual I have ever been. I do not use drugs or drink, so I had nothing to numb or take the edge off pain. I had to learn how to live with it- and to still be happy- and grateful- on days when I was in very bad pain.
I give thanks for this board. It helped me and still helps me to be in contact with people like me, people with Lyme disease.
I used to be a Taoist when I was younger, but I am much more Buddhist since Lyme. When I was little I lived in India and wanted to be a Jain.
What I learned from Lyme is kindness.
Someone else posted that poem here on LN that I just loved and that I think ought to be posted once a day- Ellie K. posted it- and Ellie is a great name- too.
KINDNESS by Naomi Shihab Nye
Before you know what kindness really is
you must lose things,
feel the future dissolve in a moment
like salt in a weakened broth.
What you held in your hand,
what you counted and carefully saved,
all this must go so you know
how desolate the landscape can be
between the regions of kindness.
How you ride and ride
thinking the bus will never stop,
the passengers eating maize and chicken
will stare out the window forever.
Before you learn the tender gravity of kindness,
you must travel where the Indian in a white poncho
lies dead by the side of the road.
You must see how this could be you,
how he too was someone
who journeyed through the night with plans
and the simple breath that kept him alive.
Before you know kindness as the deepest thing inside,
you must know sorrow as the other deepest thing.
You must wake up with sorrow.
You must speak to it till your voice
catches the thread of all sorrows
and you see the size of the cloth.
Then it is only kindness that makes any sense anymore,
only kindness that ties your shoes
and sends you out into the day to mail letters
and purchase bread,
only kindness that raises its head
from the crowd of the world to say
It is I you have been looking for,
and then goes with you everywhere
like a shadow or a friend.
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Ouch, your comment about leaving the board!!
GiGi I enjoy reading what everyone has used to treat Lyme. But the fact that your "cured" from Lyme and your husband isn't only makes the point that what works for one person may not work for the next.
I like to be opened minded and hear what works for everyone, since there is no one treatment that fits all.
Kathy
-------------------- You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have. Posts: 807 | From South Dakota | Registered: Jul 2005
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
sarah, your post made me cry, and that naomi shihab nye poem is one of my very favorite poems of all time.
map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
I found it interesting when the Dr B left his practice and went out into the world to study this illness called lyme & others. It really gave me hope that someone, somewhere was out there looking for answers to the many Unaswered of TBDs.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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