posted
Hi: Right now I'm on Dr.Zhang's herb protocol for babesia. I am swallowing 15 herbal capsules per day on top of my abx pills.
I don't enjoy swallowing that many pills - it feels like the're not going down (I know they are but it just feels that way).
From the various posts it looks like for the Buhner protocol people are having to swallow 25 to 50 pills per day!!!
For the Buhner protocol, I'm thinking I might open up all the herbal capsules for the day and dump it into a litre of warm water (not boiling hot) and drink it over the course of the day, like a tea.
It probably does not taste that good (I heard andro is bitter), but I would beat having to swallow 25-50 pills.
Has anybody tried this? Would there be any drawbacks to this, besides taste?
thanks.
Posts: 29 | From NY | Registered: Sep 2007
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bejoy
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I can't see any problem taking the herbs without a capsule, if you can make them all go down better that way.
You can get many of Buhner's herbs in tincture form.
Some do taste bitter, but if you don't mind that, you just drop them into a glass of water and swig it down all at once.
I have used some good herbal tincture combinations, called SpiroNil Biotox Elim from a company called PRL.
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
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hardynaka
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Search'smoothies', I guess Maria posted about that here or in Buhner forum. Quite a few people cannot swallow capsules (nausea... or they get stuck as you suggest).
Andro is bitter..... You don't need warm water, just cold water is fine, I guess. I gave andro in honey to my daughter, not too much powdered, just a bit.
Some herbs make good teas! I loved the Japanese knotweed, artemisia annua, astragalus for example.
But certainly not andro! Cats claw must be also yukky. And garlic from Zhang, no mention
But I did ingest frozen garlic in water. I got used after a while. Same as for chlorella. In the beginning, the most yukkie of all for me was chlorella, now I take it as anything else!
Good luck! Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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JimBoB
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Some herbs aren't as potent as a tea.
Try taking 93 capsules a day like I did. You get used to it. Make sure you drink enough water with them. I use water and juice about half and half to take mine. I also add a couple tinctures to the mix and my vitamin C in the form of C-Salts.
It is just a matter of mind over matter. Unless you have a Thyroglossal Duct Cyst like I used to have, which is rare, IF you can swallow food, you can swallow the capsules.
Make them with "0" size if you have trouble swallowing the "00" size.
For sure you don't want to taste Andrographis. I did in the beginning because I bought 5 bottles of TABLETS instead of capsules. Boy was that a mistake. I could hardly get through them. Just that few seconds in your mouth was a killer. UGH!!!
Try watching TV or something when you are taking them, and you probably won't even think about them after awhile. I take them as part of my meal just before my dessert. I consider them just a part of the meal, and with the juice it tastes good.
mojo
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I take my biggest batch of pills with dinner and once I was so hungry that I took the pills way too fast. They got stuck in my chest and it was extremely painful for a while.
Now I make sure I take them one at a time.
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MariaA
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About my "smoothies": I had this 'pills stuck in the throat' feeling a number of times when I was at highest doses of everything (I'm symptom-free due to the protocol by the way, though still treating at reduced doses and with fewer herbs). After a while I dealt with it by several of the following means:
-bought powdered herbs from 1stchineseherbs.com- you dont want to have to open up capsules, that'd drive me nuts
-measured my doses by volume (ie with measuring cups of powders mixed up in bulk, then measuring spoons for the actual dose I took).
CAUTION: I was very familiar with my tolerance of my normal dose, didn't have any sensitivity to the herbs, and am an experienced user of herbal medicine in general. I was not neuro-Lyme sick at this point and could think clearly.
Most of us would advise you to buy a cheap gram scale and use that instead of measuring with measuring spoons. Please google 'digital scales' to find an inexpensive one and make sure it measures in less than 1-gram increments (they can be as cheap as $15 for a small plastic 'balance beam' scale or about $40 for a much better digital one).
Our doses are typically from 500 mg (half a gram) to 2000 mg (two grams) of powder, check the book for exact numbers on everything as they're important. 1000 milligrams equals one gram.
-I mixed my powdered herbs into strong lemon or other juice, (stevia-sweetened in my case), and drank it down with a chaser of some other juice
-andrographis is extraordinarily nasty tasting- very bitter. If you can take it as capsules, and take the other stuff as powder, then it's less unpleasant to do the drink version. Stephania root was also nasty- very astringent. It was a unique combination of nasty flavors together.
- I tolerated this for about two weeks at a time, then I"d switch back to capsules, then do the powder after a while.
-I also found an alternative relief to prevent 'stuck' pills. I found that if I ate something after every few pills, or drank a thick drink such as a smoothie or diet shake, I was a lot less likely to get the 'stuck pills' feeling. So I alternated this technique with bouts of using the powdered drink and regular capsule-swallowing.
-eventually the problem went away because I got better and was able to take one less pill of each herb. Selma got better without ever going to full amounts of herbs and Buhner often makes the point that some people need much less than others. It's scary to step down from 4 pills of each 3 or 4 herbs, but I became so dramatically better at about the same month that Buhner suggests you reduce, that it was pretty obvious that it was OK to reduce.
-smoothie suggestions: -regular or frozen fruit blended up with other liquids -I found that I could get an instant 'smoothie' by adding some orange juice to soymilk. Sounds gross, but it was a tropical-drink sort of effect and helped fool my body into not feeling the 'stuck pill' effect so much. -if you're on a low-carb diet as so many doctors seem to recommend, it's harder to do this. I found some chemically-sweetened (ie splenda, equal, etc) diet protein drink mixes for this, but many people on the board will caution you against them especially if you're really sick.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
TerryK
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posted
Wet your throat BEFORE you swallow your first pill and keep your throat wet. The pills 'slip' down much easier. Drink lots of water between pills. Not only do you need the water to properly digest the pills but it will keep your throat wet.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
MariaA: Blossom's husband here. She takes the pills but likes me to deal with the details such as dosages, etc. I recently bought a gram scale and measuring spoons.
I just wanted to confirm one thing.
In Buhner's book, for example, he says: Cat's Claw dosage is 1-4 500mg capsules 3-4 times per day.
I was wondering what he means by the "500 mg". Does it mean that the contents of one Cat's Claw capsule weighs 500 mg?
I called Rain-Tree and mentioned I wanted to use their powdered Cat's Claw. I got confused because I asked how much powder is equivalent to one of their capsules - they said "about half a teaspoon". It seems a bit imprecise, but maybe it's not that necessary to be super-precise with herbs?
Another question is the following. Since my wife has babesia, I putting together a schedule of herbs for her. Let me know how it sounds.
First Month:
-Drink 1 Litre of "Babesia Tea" daily. Contents: 9 grams of Artemisia Annua (per Buhner) 3 grams of Red Root Herb (based on a calculation I did from a couple of sources).
After the First Month:
Alternate between the above Babesia Tea for one week and then three weeks of "Lyme Tea" (pulsing the babesia) until disease cured.
Lyme Tea: 4 to 8 grams of Cat's Claw herb (per Buhner's max dosage) 28 grams of Japanese Knotweed 6 grams Smilax + Andrographis (swallow capsules per Buhner's dosage, not in the tea).
Of course, we plan on initially testing each herb individually at low doses to determine sensitivities.
Does the above protocol make sense (esp. the pulsing theory?)
[ 18. November 2007, 04:11 AM: Message edited by: yanivnaced ]
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bejoy
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My mother-in-law says, "swallow pills with yogurt."
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
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hardynaka
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Maria, thanks for the recipy again!
Yes, I never reached level 3 of Buhner's herbs, maximum level 2 (6 capsules of each herb) for some, but not all herbs. And I truly think I'm in remission, so it did work at lower dosages. I'm off all lyme herbs.
YANIV, I did like your idea, trying to figure out a protocol before trying it. Just start slow. The amounts, it's not that important in the begining, you just have to concentrate to take the minimum possible first time and ramp slowly, one by one, until she feels she's herxing-improving (or just improving).
But never overdoing, as a bad herx can make you give many many steps behind and halt treatment for days or even weeks. I would keep on the amount you feel is giving good results and only ramp up when you feel it's necessary.
Check my babesia herbs protocol, I posted here sometime ago. I would add some babesia cyst busters to your recipy (I believe babesia has a cystic form or a form that is resistent to usual babesia herbs). I kept relapsing, that's why I believe on that.
Your babesia protocol will get borrelia too for sure. Prepare for double herxes.
I would do cats claw the whole way, since the beginning. It's a wonderful herb.
Artemisia annua for one whole month without pulsing looks to me too long (at least, my body never wanted it for longer than a week, usually 5 days was my limit, then I needed pulsing it).
Besides, I wouldn't do a tea WITH other herbs, as artemisia annua tea rarely tests good with other herbs. If you don't believe muscle tests, read about artemisinin, it is usually recommended to take it apart from most stuff, even by 2 hours.
I find artemisia annua decoctions (you need to cook it a bit to get full benefits) should be taken about 30 minutes apart from all Buhner's herbs and supplements. You can also ingest the herb in capsules, but following the same principle (dont' take it together with herbs etc).
Babesia herxes are the worst, don't forget to give good cleansers to your wife!
This is just my opinion (from someone who fought 2 babesial infections 99% with herbs...)
Good luck! Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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MariaA
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quote:Originally posted by yanivnaced: MariaA:
I just wanted to confirm one thing.
In Buhner's book, for example, he says: Cat's Claw dosage is 1-4 500mg capsules 3-4 times per day.
I was wondering what he means by the "500 mg". Does it mean that the contents of one Cat's Claw capsule weighs 500 mg?
Depends on the brand. At the time his book came out, a few of the vendors (solaray etc) sold it in 500mg sizes.
quote: I called Rain-Tree and mentioned I wanted to use their powdered Cat's Claw. I got confused because I asked how much powder is equivalent to one of their capsules - they said "about half a teaspoon". It seems a bit imprecise, but maybe it's not that necessary to be super-precise with herbs?
There are herbs where very small doses have a large effect of where there's a high potential for side effects, and other herbs such as the Buhner core protocol whereby we take fairly large amounts in one sitting, so for non-sensitive people like myself small variations in dosage don't matter as much. However, you really should try to get the dose exact at first till you figure out if she's going to have any difficulty with any of the herbs otherwise you wont be able to tell if it's the herb or the dose that's a problem.
Just use the scale you bought- weight is always the correct way to dose something, as volume (ie teaspoons) can settle or expand depending on the size of the powdered herb. 500 mg is 500 mg no matter the brand, etc.
quote:Another question is the following. Since my wife has babesia, I putting together a schedule of herbs for her. Let me know how it sounds.
I'm not a doctor, and I haven't had babesia. I'd recommend either starting a new topic to discuss this, or to subscribe to the Buhner protocol discussion list (www.groups.yahoo.com/group/lyme_aid_buhner) and post the same question= there are more people with experience who could give advice (but again, we're not doctors and ultimately a doctor would be best). Or you can post it to Buhner himself on the PLanetthrive.com page where he answers questions (see my herbal links signature line below this post for a direct link to the column if you can't find it)
quote: First Month:
-Drink 1 Litre of "Babesia Tea" daily. Contents: 9 grams of Artemisia Annua (per Buhner) 28 grams of Japanese Knotweed (per Buhner) 6 grams Smilax
After the First Month:
Alternate between the above Babesia Tea for one week and then three weeks of "Lyme Tea" (pulsing the babesia) until disease cured.
Lyme Tea: 4 to 8 grams of Cat's Claw herb (per Buhner's max dosage) 28 grams of Japanese Knotweed 6 grams Smilax + Andrographis (swallow capsules per Buhner's dosage, not in the tea).
Of course, we plan on initially testing each herb individually at low doses to determine sensitivities.
Does the above protocol make sense (esp. the pulsing theory?)
One thing that stands out for me is that there have been a lot of studies on artemesia for treatment of malaria, and it's not very water-soluble so it shouldn't work very well as a tea. With malaria treatment they also found that success is VERY dose-dependent or the malaria can come back. This is why they normally treat it with artemesinin (a synthetic version of the active ingredient in artemesia) rather than cheap artemesia tea (there is a good writeup or several of malaria herbal treatment studies if you do some google research).
Treating Babesia with artemesia is based on well-studied malaria treatment, so there are similarities (when I brought my boyfriend to my LLMD when he had malaria, the LLMD treated him with artemesinin and babesia herbs, by the way, they're really similar organisms). Anyway, based on the malaria research, I'd think that you don't want artemesia tea, though I think someone posted above that they've done that.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
I took Artemisinin Buhner's SLOW way at first, and didn't notice anything, so then I went the recommendation fo HIGH DOSE for three days. I felt only a slight tiredness doing it that way.
Then I went to Artemisia annua, but at 600mg a day for three weeks. I could not go further than three weeks, as it started getting to me by then.
I started taking it again after a two week break, but I also started Coptis the same time, and I also took Andrographis for one day. Well let me tell you, I felt REALLY, really bad. So stopped ALL herbs for three days.
I have never taken Artemisia annua since. That was over a year ago. I did take Coptis later but at only 4 capsules a day. And I SLOWLY worked up to that. And NO Andrographis while taking the Coptis either.
I still have both Artemisia annua and Coptis in bulk but have NOT taken either of them for a long time. They just sit in my refrigerator. For future use???
One thing we have to remember on dosages beside our very individual systems is BODY SIZE. If I remember right, Selma is about 100 pounds. I am over 200 pounds. Buhner's recommendations are for people about 150 pounds. So take that all into consideration when you consider your dosages.
hardynaka
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Maria is right in saying most people treat malaria with artemisinin instead of artemisia annua. But I don't see many success stories of treatment of babesia only with artemisinin.
Even Buhner is not recommending it much lately (he said, do a trial of 1 month low doses, but if it doesn't make the trick, try cryptolepsis). So far, I only saw 1 lady getting better from light babesiosis in the Buhner forum after following babesia protocol suggested by Buhner. All others relapsed. Myself included, with two babesial infections.
I did all protocols with artemisinin, it's not an easy stuff to take. Herxes can be horrible, and I bet one won't get rid of babesiosis due to relapses. I find artemisia annua lighter, easier to take too. I don't believe artemisia annua will kill all babesia either, though.
Besides, many practioners find that taking artemisinin only may make the critters resistant.
I tried all forms of artemisia annua too, both in decoctions (infusions won't work well in my experience) and in powder. I didn't see much difference in using these two forms of artemisia annua. Artemisinin is a total different thing (the way our bodies react to it is very different than whole herb).
All of them (artemisinin, artemisia annua powder, artemisia annua decoction) hit borrelia for me too (I could see it through my lyme arthritis, for example, the pattern of herx-improvement). But neither did the trick of eliminating babesia. I don't believe on artemisia (any form) SOLO as a treatment for babesia. Just telling my individual experience!
I'm a strong believer on the cystic form of babesia being responsible for relapses.
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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Blood smears taken from control group(s) of malaria patients after Artemisia Tea treatment has shown an eradication of pathogen.
The only explanation for the (apparently) low success rate for Babesia is that it is actually not as similar to Malaria as we postulate.
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hardynaka
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Yaniv, I also believe so.
Artemisinin was discovered in China, because there's a region there that didn't have malaria cases. Researchers discovered then that people from that region took artemisia annua regularly and started researching it, isolated artemisinin etc etc.
So this area of China was free of malaria due to whole herb, artemisia annua, that's the beginning of the story with artemisinin.
I don't say "don't take artemisinin/ artemisia annua" for babesia. I did it and it did help me A LOT. Both forms. Artemisinin helps diminishing the number of pathogens a lot (babesia) very fast. But I kept relapsing.
Just that. My experience 'says' one needs to add cyst busters to get the whole job done. Neither artemisinin alone nor artemisia annua alone, nor both will do the job. You can even add Mepron and abx combos, it won't always do the job (people get relapsing with babs even with 3 parallel drugs for months or even years!).
Lou (if I'm not mistaken) posted here about her taking of Primaquine as cyst buster and it seemed it helped her. I think she took chloroquine with it, but I'm not too sure... She had a very very resistant case of babesiosis for years and for her, primaquine did the final job. If you do a search on primaquine you will find more info, I'm sure.
Selma
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MariaA
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Does babesia form cysts? Or is it possible that your improvement has something to with the passage of time in your treatment, and with improvements in your immune system due to treating the Lyme and other coinfections?
I think we never know what exactly is going on with some of these multiple-infections-at-a-time cases. For instance, I have some Bart symptoms, which are similar to what might be Lyme symptoms as well. I chose to not take Levaquin because of having had tendinitis issues in the past. Continuing to treat Lyme seemed to take care of the bartonella symptoms. I think I'll never know whether I had Bart or not, since i don't test positive for it. It's seems likely in my mind that artemesia goes after Lyme as well (isn't that Zhang's main contribution to this?) but coinfections complicate things by attacking our bodies in many ways.
Maria
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