posted
I wanted to try hyperbaric but the Rife book also says hyperbaric can drive infection deeper.
I dont know if its possible but I'd like to avoid antibiotics since I almost died taking them several yrs back.
Some people heal from hypberbaric,some get worse. Anyone just use hyperbaric lyme and how many treatments did it take, did you relapse.....?
So confused here and I have already spent so much money and want to use whats left wisely.
Thanks!
Posts: 187 | From FL | Registered: Nov 2007
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oxygenbabe
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I think it's a wonderful adjunct. Bryan Rosner has absolutely *NO* medical or scientific information about hyperbaric "driving lyme deeper." Where is lyme anyway? It's already in the tissues. How much deeper can it go? It's nonsense on his part and not backed up at all.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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Bugg
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LaceyJ--
Hi there. I completely understand your position. I was on oral and IV abx for about 2 years before I tried hyperbaric oxygen therapy. I did 44 dives at 2.8 (very deep) ATA. I WAS NOT taking abx while doing the HBOT as I was told by the operator of the HBOT that it was unnecessary as the HBOT would attack the lyme sufficiently. I do think the HBOT helped boost my immune system (I'd had problems tolerating high doses of meds) and I believe it had some effect on the lyme (though I'm still testing positive, although I understand you can test positive long after treatment' my titers are down, however). Also, I actually felt worse after the HBOT because I had not properly treated for babesia. I highly recommend either treating for babs (if you have it) before the HBOT or during. I really didn't recognize that I had it until my "heavy legs" after the HBOT increased and my LLMD attributed to the babs flourishing in the oxygen-rich environment. Also, people who go back for additional sessions after their initial forty seem to do much better. There's a woman on this board, Julia, who has battled lyme and has a hyperbaric clinic in New Jersey. I've heard she is VERY GOOD and economical. I wish I would have known about her before I spent so much on my hyperbaric treatments in San Diego.
Bottom line--I think it does help, especially to make your body/immune system stronger...also, helped clear out the yeast...just make sure you treat for babs before or during...
Good luck!!!
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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oxygenbabe
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Most babesia does *not* flourish in the oxygen rich environment. It gets killed too. My former hyperbaric doctor saw the dead babesia in her and her daughter's blood, after learning microscopy, she tested their blood before and after sessions.
It could be any other # of aerobic bugs, or just a reaction to free-radical damage from all the oxygen.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I did hyperbaric WITHOUT antibiotics (I also have very bad reactions to abx) My personal experience was that I felt VAST improvements. I did treatments 5 days per week for 9 months. The first couple of weeks I had bad herx's, but kept going. I had more energy, better color, my appetite returned, yeast diminished and overall wellbeing greatly improved. These improvements started to fade after about 8 months. The dizziness (one of my lyme symptoms) began to return around 9 months into hyperbaric treatments and I could no longer drive myself to Parsippany. So I stopped treatments. Within 1 month, I relapsed horribly. All my lyme symprtoms returned with a vengence and 1 1/2 years later...I feel that I am even worse off than before I even started the hyperbaric. Hyperbaric gave me my life back for those 9 months and honestly, I don't know if I would have made it without those treatments. (I literally was gray before I started and down to 87 pds.) So yes, I WOULD do it all over again...even knowing that the benefits would probably not last once I stopped. I do know many people who have gotten benefits from hyperbaric that have been sustained. That just wasn't the case for me.
I forgot to add this: I never was able to get to a "theraputic dive" because of problems with my ears...although I did get close for awhile.
-------------------- Corinne Posts: 529 | From Raleigh, NC | Registered: Jun 2006
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Bugg
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LaceyJ--
I just wanted to clarify my earlier response. I really encourage people to try HBOT if they can afford it as an adjunct. I believe it helped boost my immune system and help with the lyme disease. I definitely felt better during the HBOT sessions and believe I would have seen more improvement had I been able to return a month later for 40 more treatments. When I mentioned in my previous post that I felt "worse" immediately afterwards, I meant that this was not a lasting condition. It was, however, quite dramatic with HEAVY fatigue in my legs (couldn't climb the stairs; stand for more than a couple of minutes). Based on the opinions of the doctor at the HBOT clinic and of my LLMD, they believed I had the heavy legs due to untreated babesia. Once I started treating for the babesia, we saw an immediate turnaround and I was able to climb the stairs again. As Oxygenbabe noted, however, perhaps that was just their clinical speculation. I frankly just haven't seen enough studies on the effects of HBOT with babesia to provide you with an "educated" response...just providing you with my personal experience. I would also like to let you know about the experience of two other women whom I met at the clinic. One of them, who took low dose zithromax, during 44 sessions saw dramatic improvement from her lyme. The other woman did not treat with abx but also saw marked improvement. She returned three weeks later for additional sessions and improved even more. Both of those women were diagnosed with lyme and were not diagnosed with any co-infections....They had both been horribly ill and are now back working again....
I know it's a tough decision...keep researching and asking questions! It sounds like maybe Oxygenbabe might have some good studies she could e-mail you. Take Care!
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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oxygenbabe
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I wonder why babesia would cause heavy legs? Never heard of that as a symptom. How did you treat for the babesia (what meds)?
You can relapse after stopping. Maintenance treatments or a home chamber will help that.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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I guess you have been wondering where I have been?
Okay, here is my HO : )
If you are planning on using HBOT as a therapy then if your body can tolerate it PLEASE use antibiotics. It has been proven most effective when you incorporate the Abx.
There has been NO studies, to my knowledge, to prove that babesia will increase under HBOT enviroment. However it is aerobic in nature hense the theory that it would...
So why take a chance treat it and then do the HBOT. I have many people here that have tested positive for babesia and they are doing fine...
Cordor, Sorry to hear that you where not able to reach a "therapeutic" pressure. Next time try and use some "ear planes" they do work very well.
Heavy legs? Hummm, interesting? Does your lyme manifest as MS?
I do treat a few people that only use HBOT, some that incorporate homeopathy, and others with either picc lines for abx or orals.
IMHO, the ones that do the bests are the people who have IV abx.
Gains,
IMHO, lyme is not a disease that you will ever rid yourself of... But you can put it in a state of remission.
Herxing Under HBOT,
When you do HBOT for the treatment of lyme you will (most often) herx. Sometimes while you are in the chamber. This can be very frightening.
So, make a list or discuss this with the HBO tech. It will help to determine if you are having a herx from the oxygen.
This is why some people become very sick within a few days of doing HBOT. It will manifest as an exacerbation of your lyme symptoms.
If you are doing HBOT then I believe that you can use it to get back up and running ( or at least walking). But in order to maintain those gains I will suggest that you have a "maintance" session once every few weeks.
This will help to kill the spirochetes and boost your immune system. Some people come in every month for ONE or TWO sessions others come in every few months.
I hope this helps, If anyone would like to get research articles on lyme you will find some on wildcondor.com or you can send me an email.
Kind regards,
Julia
-------------------- Please consult your LLMD before making any changes to your treatment regimen. Posts: 641 | From NJ, USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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Here is where I am confused. I tested negative for babesia. Is there another test besides blood? I have those same heavy leg, restless leg, vibration... symptoms.
Does that mean babesia gets worse with oxygen?
Posts: 187 | From FL | Registered: Nov 2007
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WildCondor
Unregistered
posted
Please don't pay any attention to what you read about Hyperbaric in one of Rosner's books. He is not a LLMD and what is said is not true. It's all opinion. Oxygen makes antibiotics work better and pushes them deeper into the tissues. It did nothing but help me! It makes everything better in my opinion and experience!
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Bugg
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To answer your questions, the "heavy" legs was attributed to severe fatigue from babesia...I have lyme and babesia...I'm on Mepron, zith, and art for the babs...
LaceyJ--I called all over the country and researched different hyperbaric centers before I chose one for me. At one point, I will probably consider trying another round of it. Like I said before, it helped my immune system, helped with the lyme, and definitely helped me tolerate the higher doses of abx. In hindsight, I do believe I would have had more effective results had I taken abx during my dives and returned again for additional dives. (For my own piece of mind, I would have treated for babesia as well). I have a good friend who is highly intelligent and very selective and also researched HBOT clinics all over the country. He chose Julia's clinc and has been extremely pleased. I wish I had known about her clinic before I did my sessions.
Also, please know that I did herx during the HBOT sessions but I was never scared or regretful. I don't consider it an unpleasant experience...quite the opposite....Just make sure you have something in your stomach while diving (in fact, I took a power bar in the chamber with me)....I was able to stay in San Diego by myself and do the dives...didn't need anyone to care for me....Good luck and please e-mail Julia...
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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The only study I know of that was done on Lyme and Hyperbaric was at about 2.4 ATA. It seems that most recommend similar pressures. Does anyone know if this high of a pressure is needed?
Would lower pressures over longer term be as effective or somewhat effective... Any opinions?
Posts: 70 | From AZ | Registered: Sep 2007
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oxygenbabe
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Hi bark, I use a mild home chamber. It's not as effective but its good maintenance. My recommendation is to do 2.4 ata for at least a month in a hardchamber, and its best at 2 months believe it or not. Then buy a mild home chamber and continue at least 2x week. I didn't know about mild chambers when I did the hardchamber/clinic unfortunately so there was a significant time gap there for me.
It helps the whole system in so many ways, and it inhibits the lyme. 2.4 is a wound healing protocol and for osteomyelitis so that's probably why they use it. Depending on the tissue and how much oxygen perfused into it, which would vary with the individual perhaps, spirochetes can be inhibited at lower pressures. They die in air for instance.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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Here are the available studies of HBOT and Lyme truly more research needs to be done. However, it explains, I hope, the rational behind the atmosheric pressure.
Kind Regards,
Julia
Effects of Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy On Lyme Disease
by William P. Fife, Ph. D.
29 January 1998
The purpose of this study was to determine if hyperbaric oxygen therapy affected Lyme disease caused by the spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi.
The spirochete B. burgdorferi is a microaerophilic organism carried by the Deer tick (Ixodid) and transferred to humans and other mammals by its bite. Symptoms often begin by a bulls-eye rash and erythema migrans. Symptoms may include pain in joints and muscles, sore throat, fever, swollen glands, and mental " fogginess". If not diagnosed within the first one or two months, the disease may become a chronic infection. At that time it apparently becomes sequestered in fibroblasts and other cells which, in turn appear to protect it against effective treatment by all known antibiotics so far tested. The disease is difficult to diagnose without serological findings and requires the skill of a highly qualified physician, experienced in treating this disease.
Rationale:
It was shown by Austin that the spirochete could not survive if transferred in air to another host, but would survive if transferred in a gas mixture of 4% oxygen. This demonstrated that the spirochete could not survive in an oxygen partial pressure of 160-mm Hg (the partial pressure of oxygen in air), but could survive in a partial pressure of 30-mm Hg (which is the partial pressure of 4% oxygen at 1 atmosphere, absolute (ground level pressure). Therefore, it seems clear that a lethal level of oxygen for the spirochete falls somewhere between 30 mm Hg, and 160 mm Hg.
It also is known that while the inspired partial pressure of oxygen is approximately 160 mm Hg, at the tissue level, the partial pressure of oxygen normally is approximately 30-35 mm Hg. Thus, it would not be expected that breathing air at ground level would cause any damage to the spirochete. However, if the patient were placed in a hyperbaric chamber and the pressure increased to 2. 36 atmospheres, absolute (ata), the total barometric pressure would be 1794 mm Hg. If the patient were then to breathe pure oxygen the inspired partial pressure of oxygen would be 1794 mm Hg. Inspired oxygen is diluted by carbon dioxide and water vapor in the alveoli, so that the arterial blood would be exposed to an oxygen partial pressure of approximately 1700-mm Hg, and the tissue oxygen would be between 200 and 300 mm Hg. This clearly would be above lethal oxygen levels for the spirochete since it is expected that oxygen normally would diffuse throughout all cells of the body.
This partial pressure of oxygen can be safely achieved in a hyperbaric chamber, and the patients can tolerate this level for 90 minutes or longer quite successfully.
Protocol:
This study was approved by the University Institutional Review Board.
Subjects were selected from those referred by clinical physicians who were experienced in the treatment of Lyme disease. All subjects presented with a positive diagnosis of this disease according to the CDC criteria, including a positive Western blot serology of the proper bands. All had failed intravenous antibiotics, and many were continuing to deteriorate even though still on various antibiotics.
Subjects were given a briefing on the use of the hyperbaric chamber, including the risks, and signed a waiver and release in accordance with the Belmont Report. They were placed in the multiplace chamber and compressed to 2.36 ata, whereupon a plastic helmet was placed over the head and pure oxygen was administered. The oxygen flow pattern was such that the subject inspired 100% oxygen with each breath. Subjects were able to communicate with the attendant in the chamber as well as with each other.
Treatment duration was 60 minutes on oxygen, and in most instances the treatments were administered bid for 5 days followed by a two-day rest. Several different series were tried, ranging from 10 treatments to 30 treatments. One subject received 145 treatments over the course of 3 months.
Results:
Ninety-one subjects completed a total of 1,995 hyperbaric oxygen treatments, although nine were eliminated later due to the presence of another medical problem not apparent during their treatments. These other medical problems were such things as babesiosis, ehrlichosis, hepatitis C, and previously unidentified neurological problems. Two subjects were eliminated due to the development of septicemia from IV catheters, and one because of recent breast cancer, although all three of them later showed an improvement of Lyme symptoms with hyperbaric oxygen administration.
Subject evaluation was carried out by an abbreviated questionnaire taken from a standard questionnaire used by several Lyme specialists as part of their evaluation. This questionnaire was designed so that zero reflected no symptoms, while ten reflected severe symptoms.
Although additional statistical evaluation still is being carried out, it appears that approximately 84.8% of those treated showed significant improvement by a decrease or elimination of symptoms. Only 12 subjects (13.1%) claimed no apparent benefit.
Before treatment, the subjects had an average score of 114.12 (of a possible 270), and after treatment they averaged 49.27. This reduction of 64.85 points was statistically significant in a paired t-test (p=0.000). The variability of the scores from patient-to-patient declined as well after the treatment series. The standard deviation of the scores was 56.00 before and 44.14 after treatment. The p-value of this reduction is 0.057 in a Fisher's F-test. Further, 58% of the respondents had score reduction of 41.86 points or more.
All except one of the 91 subjects developed severe Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, usually appearing within the first 5 days of the beginning of hyperbaric oxygen treatment. In most cases, the Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction continued throughout the series of treatments, and in many instances continued for up to a month after the treatments were finished. Most subjects then began to show major improvement that in some instances has continued for 8 months.
Personal experience by Laura Zeller Diving for a cure[/URL] (who is airing right now on discovery health)
-------------------- Please consult your LLMD before making any changes to your treatment regimen. Posts: 641 | From NJ, USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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Do you recommend that maintenance sessions also be at 2.4 or at 1.5, which I understand is a healing ata?
Also, my LLMD says generally to take a break from abx treatment during a herx, and resume a couple of days later at a lower dose. Does that same rule apply to a herx from HBOT?
posted
My husband did HBOT before we knew he had Lyme/Babesia. As I've posted before (I get tired of repeating the story), the HBOT combined with several other factors (prednisone weaning, yeast diet) sent him into a very deep relapse. He has had a problem with muscle weakness especially in the legs and that was exacerbated (yes, to heavy legs!). Also, his lung function decreased and unfortunately over a year later that has not returned.
I recognize that for some people that HBOT has really helped and I think it can be a valid treatment. However, if you have babesia symptoms, treat before the HBOT. Also, if you have lung issues I would seriously advise you not to do it.
Posts: 984 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2006
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I like to recommend that the prescribed protocol be followed when ever possible 2.4 ATA.
I like to follow what you doc recommends for you. Each LLMD has his/her own methods.
IMHO, the herx can be almost as damaging as the disease. If it's possible I think taking a break is not a bad ideal.
For the most part as long as you are detoxifying adecuately. You should be able to tolerate a herx.
Blessings,
Julia
-------------------- Please consult your LLMD before making any changes to your treatment regimen. Posts: 641 | From NJ, USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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oxygenbabe
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Re: lungs--Parisa--did they bubble the oxygen through water? Oxygen can be drying, and it makes a big difference to bubble it through water, which you can do in a multichamber, and was routinely done when I dived in a multichamber. However I'm not sure if it's possible in monochambers.
I don't understand about the muscle weakness and whether that is related to babesia. I wonder if it is related to yeast/fungi instead.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I did about 25 treatments in a home HBOT chamber (for CFIDS) without any real incident. Then I was bit by a tick this past summer and got Lyme.
My LLMD thinks I have babesia now but it's still inconclusive. In August, I resumed HBOT treatments after a several month break. I did a number of treatments without problems and then, suddenly, I was in the tube and began feeling like I was not getting any oxygen and had this REALLY WEIRD feeling like I was going to die.
The oxygen hunger was very extreme and I was, right then, breathing oxygen in an oxygen-rich environment and not hyperventilating or anything. I signaled to the operator to let me out and she started decompression.
It was horrible having to wait to get out of there and I didn't think I was going to make it out alive.
I stopped treatments after that. I got really panicked it would happen again.
Now I'm wondering if that could have been an effect of babesia. Maybe the HBOT fed the babesia and that led to extreme sudden air hunger?
Has anyone else experienced anything like this? Any theories? I had never had problems with claustrophobia or anything like that before this incident.
Posts: 929 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Oct 2007
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oxygenbabe
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Well, did the operator know what they were doing? I have a home chamber and occasionally the tubing has popped off where it is connected and away went my oxygen! I would notice the shift in feeling how I was breathing, and to test, all I had to do was put my finger up to the hole in the mask, and it would suction on my finger. I had to decompress and get out and reconnect the tubing. If you still had your mask on, you could've been breathing your own c02. Did you take the mask off and still have the air hunger?
In any case, in the deep dive chamber one guy with horrible lyme used to get panic attacks.
It may have been a mild herx.
I honestly don't think hbot stimulates babesia most of the time. Julia found one study for one strain that did.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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Many people have posted regarding Babesia and HBOT, referring to the need to treat the Babesia prior to or during diving. I would be interested in hearing feedback regarding Bartonella co-infection; because it is an aerobic pathogen as well, has anyone read/heard and indication or co-indications regarding HBOT with Bartonella infection?
Thanks very much!
Posts: 85 | From Texas | Registered: Dec 2007
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I use the chambers at 2.4 ATA and was tested positive for bart. I targeted it with abx and found great benefit.
HBOT is most effective when used in conjunction with abx and is also an excellent alternative if your system can no longer tolerate abx due to chemical sensitivities.
I hope this helps,
Julia
-------------------- Please consult your LLMD before making any changes to your treatment regimen. Posts: 641 | From NJ, USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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-------------------- Please consult your LLMD before making any changes to your treatment regimen. Posts: 641 | From NJ, USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
For people that have done HBOT, did you do one treatment daily or two? I know the Fife study did two per day, I'm wondering if that's necessary to see results.
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