Bugg
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8095
posted
Hi all--
Unfortunately I was unable to reach my LLMD prior to the break and my husband and I are quite concerned about my condition. I guess I'm looking for some reassurance. I am on about day 48 of the meds for babs (Mepron, zith, art) and am VERY ill. In fact, I am so weak and flu-like and slightly nauseous (no, I don't have the real flu) that I am stopping my babs meds for two days. I tried to pick-up three old law books of mine and was too weak to do so. My urine is dark brown/tea-like every morning but clears out after drinking water with lemon.
Is this normal to feel THIS HORRIBLE almost 50 days into the treatment? It's like I feel even more "poisoned" even though I've been detoxing like crazy. My husband and I cannot figure our why, now, my body is so weak and I have slight nausea....I just feel horribly anemic...Also, just fyi, I don't think I have any UTI issues as there's no pain..
Please put in your two cents if you've been where I am...thanks so much for any help!!!
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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savebabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9847
posted
I believe babs herxes can be intense in week 4 and 6, so maybe that is what you are feeling.
I will up this thread for others to reply.
Posts: 1603 | From ny | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
call a dr or go to a hospital ASAP! tea colored urine is a sign of kidney problems!
Posts: 615 | From maryland | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Bugg: How did you progress over the past 48 days? Is this your first Herx since starting Mepron/Zith/Artemisia?
Posts: 655 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
I don't want to scare you but dark urine is not a sign to ignore.
Surely your LLMD has an emergency number or someone covering his practice over the holidays?
I would def. put in a call to his or her office or emergency number and ask to speak to a doctor or nurse. Better safe than sorry. Just my 2c.
Posts: 194 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
It could possibly be Porphyria. Dark urine is one of the signs of it. Did you make any changes in supplements in the last few weeks...like stopping anything?
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
It is normal for urine to be more concentrated in the morning because you are not consuming fluids at night.
It is not normal for it to look like tea.
Are you drinking plenty of water?
What other fluids are you drinking?
Are you eating a lot of any particular vegetable?
Are you taking high doses of any vitamins?
Are you taking any herbs/supplements besides the Artemisinin?
What dosages are you taking?
You said you are detoxing like crazy, what are you doing for detox?
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Bugg
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8095
posted
Wow, thanks to all of you for your wonderful responses...Just to clarify some things....I actually looked at the calendar and I'm on day 54 of the babs meds...Yes, I am taking plenty of supplements including probiotics....My urine is ONLY dark when I wake-up in the morning...I take a dose of Mepron, art, zith in the evening with fat and another dose with fat before I go to bed...Starting day 4, I have herxed THE ENTIRE TIME on the babs meds..I've been homebound and pretty-bedridden...I force myself to walk on a treadmill and recently did several sessions in an infrared sauna (which could be the cause of feeling even worse)...I just don't understand babesia. I would think, by now, I would be showing signs of feeling stronger, rather than progressively weaker. I wonder if it's the Mepron and zith turning my urine dark tea color or if its the die-off from the babs...If babs attacks the red blood cells why would you actually feel weaker as you kill the babs...wouldn't it help your red blood cells to actually eradicate the babs???
Thanks again for all of your help...I'm just concerned about stopping my babs meds too long...
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Bugg asks : "If babs attacks the red blood cells why would you actually feel weaker as you kill the babs...wouldn't it help your red blood cells to actually eradicate the babs???
You will be weaker because you have less red blood cells to carry oxygen and make ATP. (Apoptosis). Your body will also be dealing with more toxins from die off.
Your increased Sx's are probably from the saunas, as they potentiate the effects of the meds. Saunas also help the drugs to penetrate deeper through the hypercoagulation and biofilms to get at previously protected pathogens. I would stop the saunas for a week to see if you improve.
"Note from Kathy Marrs: Many students wrote that RBCs carry oxygen, and a lack of oxygen makes people feel tired, but I was looking to see if students could make the connection between WHY a lack of oxygen causes a person to feel tired. (As I asked them in class, `What's so special about oxygen that having more of it makes you less tired???')
I wanted them to realize that oxygen is necessary to get energy (ATP) out of sugar and other foods we eat. If you don't have enough RBCs, your body doesn't get enough oxygen, and without enough oxygen, you can't make as much cellular ATP for energy."
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
I am not a doctor & I still don't know what supplements you're taking, but to me it sounds like you may be dehydrating yourself & overburdening you body.
I would think that it may be worthwhile to try spacing out your dosages to 12 hours apart.
Drink plenty of fluids! Think of trying to flush the waste out of your system. (Smartwater is great because it has electrolytes but no sweeteners or flavor.)
Get plenty of rest. An afternoon nap can really help your body address the clean up.
Give the sauna & treadmill a break. These also add stress and the lost fluids need to be replenished.
If you have low blood pressure and are allowed to have salt. Homemade chicken broth can be very supportive. It's easily utilized nutrition.
This is what helped me when I was on Mepron & Zith. Since we're all different, I don't know if it will be the answer for you. I think it could be worth a shot.
I felt like complete and total poop with UNBELIEVABLE fatigue for about the first month of treatment, it got better after that as the Babesia came down & my body cleared it out.
I would say that if you lay off the sweating & bring up the fluids to flush and you still have heavy concentration, there is likely another problem that needs to be addressed.
You might want to up your fluids now & see if it gets any better.
If it's not dark after you drink the lemon water, I'm not sure if it would be a crisis. AGAIN- I am not a doctor. You also need to judge for yourself whether the concentration still seems severe (urine still dark) in the morning.
If you're flushing with water, not dehydrating yourself AND getting plenty of rest and it continues, you may need to go to the hospital or a walk-in clinic to be evaluated by a doctor.
My LLMD always recommends a couple of walk-in clinics when he is unreachable. I'm guessing they are more LL there than the hospitals.
Ali
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Carol in PA
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5338
posted
Babesia is a protozoan parasite that invades the red blood cells.
It causes the red blood cells to break apart. Urine may turn dark when the kidneys filter out elements of the broken red cells.
======== Common Presenting Signs and Symptoms of Human Babesiosis
Respiratory symptoms (cough, shortness of breath, etc.) Dark urine
======
Symptoms include high fever (up to 104�F), chills, diaphoresis (sweating), weakness, fatigue, anorexia (loss of appetite) and headache.
Later in the course of the illness, the patient may develop jaundice and dark urine.
Physical examination may reveal hepatomegaly (enlarged liver) and splenomegaly (enlarged spleen) or evidence of shock.
Rash is not a common symptom in babesiosis.
Signs of central nervous system involvement include headache, photophobia (eyes sensitive to light), neck and back stiffness, altered sensorium and emotional lability (overly emotional).
quote: If babs attacks the red blood cells why would you actually feel weaker as you kill the babs...wouldn't it help your red blood cells to actually eradicate the babs???
When you kill the babesia, the red blood cells break apart. This can cause anemia.
Don't bother trying to exercise when you're ill from this, as your muscles will be getting less oxygen due to the anemia.
Carol
Posts: 6947 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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lymebytes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11830
posted
My LLMD has said the herx from Mepron can be so severe it has put many of his patients in the hospital. Have you discussed trying Art alone first?
Also, could the tea color urine be from a supplement or something you are using to detox?
posted
My babesia herxes were FAR WORSE than any Lyme herx...WAY WORSE!
It's also full moon, so you get a double whammy!
I hope your LLMD is one who will allow you to stop meds until you feel better.
BUGG
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96220 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Bugg
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8095
posted
You've all been so insightful and so helpful. I really appreciate it. I think, perhaps, I just went too aggressively with the infrared sauna, didn't drink enough water over the following days, and took my meds too close together.
You've provided some very interesting comments about babs and red blood cells. I assume that most people won't get the dark-colored urine until they actually start treating for babs. Do you think this might be a way for those who consistently test negative for babs to confirm that they have it? I know I was very concerned about treating for babesia since my test came back negative and I never had the classic night sweats, fever, and headaches. However, my LLMD was very insistent that we treat for babs. It wasn't until I started treating for babs that I developed a number of the classic symptoms (extremely stiff neck, tightness along my ribcage, extreme tightness along my spinal column, anxiety, slight dizziness...and now the dark urine)...It's so strange how this disease can act in such a stealth manner.
Thanks so much for the smart comments...you've really helped....
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Dark urine is scary. I'm also herxing on Mepron/Zith (about 10 days in) and though I too am very ill, I do not have that symptom.
It worries me. In my humble lay opinion, I really think you should be seen ASAP and have your blood and urine tested. I wonder if one of your organs is over-stressed (kidneys, spleen, liver...). Mepron/Zith is really powerful stuff and I don't think you should assume that this is just another "normal" herx.
I remember feeling "poisoned" back in August while treating Bart with Rifampin. I went to the ER found out that my Lipase was extremely high. It was causing me to vomit non-stop.
I know going to the ER is not always the best experience (ie. dealin gw/ non-lyme-literate-- and sometimes unsympathetic-- docs and nurses) but it's always best to get checked out when you're having weird symptoms, if only for your own peace of mind.
Posts: 390 | From Oakland, CA | Registered: May 2007
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
If someone can get so sick on mepron for undiagnosed babesia...if they have *that* much babesia, they should show it on a Giemsa smear in my opinion.
I don't see how someone who has a negative test (did you get an Igenex Fish test for the RNA? That's generally pretty accurate), and has done a Giemsa smear, or two in a row to be safe, and the pathologist has seen NO babesia parasites in the blood cells, can have such a load of babesia that they get so sick as the symptoms described by Bugg. I'm not saying they don't have babesia, but a load that is so high that the dying blood cells perhaps turn the urine tea colored, I don't know about that.
Drugs can be toxic. I don't see how "mepron herxes" put people in the hospital. It is more likely drug toxicity imo.
I could be wrong.
Or else, there may be another bug, that the mepron is attacking. It is used almost off label for babesia because of Peter Krause's work and apparently is suppressive but doesn't eradicate.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I got very ill as you are describing with the babs herxes. I remember dark urine in the morning sometimes. I was also clinically diagnosed with babs.
The meds should be taken as close to 12 hours apart. I am wondering if you took one dose in the morning, early, then one dose around dinner-time, if you would have less of the dark urine. Since you take both doses so close together and when your body doesn't have a chance to wash it out, maybe that's contributing to the problem.
I agree that this justifies a call to your LLMD just to be on the safe side.
As far as the sauna, in the beginning they made me feel really bad. Try staying in for a shorter time, maybe 20 minutes. Drink plenty of water to wash out the toxins.
I hope you feel better soon. Babs treatment is tough.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
How are you feeling today Bugg?
Urine any lighter with increased fluids & more space between doses?
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Bugg,sounds almost like Ehrlichia ! I had that 2 1/2 years ago, and I was getting weaker and weaker by the day with headache and nausea AND brown urine.also had new Lyme reinfection with it. felt like I had a kidney infection- the imm.med. doc gave me a scrip for 1 gram of Cipro-took 1 pill & ended up in ER after almost passing out at a meeting and not able to function mentally. when I told ER docs about the tiny tick I had on my ankle 2 weeks prior, they tested for Ehrlichia ,and bingo! my white cell count was down also, another key symptom.(have you had yours checked?)Doxy gets rid of this nasty disease fairly easily (E.chaffeensis). the other one is very dangerous since it can affect the heart. hope you can see someone right away to check out your symptoms. I also don't recommend exercise and/or sauna if you are that ill. (I WAS working hard physically in very high temp. when I got sick). hope you get well soon!
-------------------- ~*~ Carole ~*~ Young at Heart Grandmother of 4 Posts: 140 | From Morristown, NJ, USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Bugg: I hope you are feeling better today. Just wanted to let you know almost the exact thing happened to me on my treatment of babs... about 40 -50 days in. It was horrible... I stopped the Mepron/Zith (per my doctor instruction) for a few days then tried at a lower dose (working my way back to full dose). I couldn't do it! Ended up switching to Malarone and Bactrim. I am so much better (knock on wood but I have days where I feel 100%). I'm not exactly sure what it was that happened (herx or reaction to medicine) but this combo is working wonderfully with mild herx's (every 3 weeks). I also noticed a big difference within days of adding in Art (but couldn't tolerate it on the Mepron/Zith) I added in a few weeks ago. I also have the tea urine in the a.m. I get my liver tested every 2 weeks or so and it's never been an issue of concern for my doctor. I think it's the elimination of toxins during the night. My main point is my doctor said that there was no point for me to suffer so we tried a new combo. Maybe it would work for you as well.
Posts: 45 | From MA | Registered: Sep 2007
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
Up for reply from Bugg, please.
Are you any better today?
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
My babesia herxes were the worst of all herxes ever, like Tutu says! I had to go through it to get better. When I got better, it was a bit 'sudden' and then, like magic, no more of this suffering...
I was loaded on cleansers, taking them so many times a day, to have a day looking 'normal'. Eating MSM in spoons for about 10 times a day. Then loads of chlorella at the same time and other stuff that kept testing.
My organs needed so much support, each of them (liver, kidneys, pancreas and intestines), all were overloaded during bab's herxes.
I believe, few babesia pathogens dying cause immense toxicity. They'll cause such awful herxes until the end, at least, for me it happened twice like that. Then suddenly, nothing.
Second worse herxes were fungi. Borrelia herxes for me were not that bad, compared to these 2 critters.
But I would have done like you, given a pause in case I felt cleansers were not doing their job well... Herxing can be scary!
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
Brown urine is a sign of Babesiosis in itself. Consistent with babs Herxing, normal for Babs Herxing- I myself had this- I had hemolysis with Babs treatment and my doc said it happened temporarily with many Babs patients- and my urine was brown then-
I was fully blood negative for Babesiosis but responded clinically to the point of brown urine & hemolysis-
MOST Likely this is just hemolysis from Babesiosis- but you should always have things checked out by your doc Best wishes, Sarah
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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groovy2
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6304
posted
Hi All--
Yep dark pee is a sign of Babs--
I did not herx on Babs treatment till about the 4th bottle of mepron-- then Bam --
Babs herxes are by far the Worst - I herxed perty much non stop for about 8 months -it was no fun -
I had been sick with Lyme and Babs 20 yrs-
Make sure to drink Tons of warm water or tea - it will help --Jay--
Posts: 2999 | From Austin tx USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
Bugg- get tested for a G-6-PD deficiency- check if you have that enzyme!! If you are of Asian, Indian, African, Middle-Eastern or mediterranean descent you are more likely to have this deficiency and it means you can have a reaction of severe hemolytic anemia to Babs medications- that would not be transitory-!!!! it is a simple blood test-!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
p.s. glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
With all the stuff your on you may be having drug induced fevers to many things fior your body to deal with I stopped taking the mepron when it hit me 3.5months into treatment also stopped anything with acetametaphen in it in 2 of days i felt better.Drink more water to help body flush the bad stuff.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
I've only been on my babs/Lyme meds (Mepron, Plaquenil, Zithromax) for about a week and a half and I got the dark urine within a week. It seems to be worse in the afternoon. It is almost tea colored but it doesn't stay that way. I drink about 70oz of water per day. I am - and would be for Bugg - about nephritis. I might be imagining it but my kidneys do hurt, too.
I didn't realize the Herx was so common - or that it could last so long. I was prepared for about a month of feeling crappy. I hope it doesn't go longer than that.
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