Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
FINALLY they got this!!! Only 18 years too late for me. But maybe it will help others? Please take a copy of this report to your dentist and doctors.. especially if you have TMJ problems.
J Craniomaxillofac Surg. 2007 Nov 16 [Epub ahead of print] Links
Borrelia burgdorferi - A potentially aetiological factor in TMJ disorders? Preliminary report.Wanyura H, Wagner T, Samolczyk-Wanyura D.
Department of Cranio-Maxillofacial Surgery and Centre of TMJ Arthroscopy (Head: Prof. Hubert Wanyura), Medical University of Warsaw, Poland.
INTRODUCTION: The available literature does not report on infectious factors potentially triggering intra-articular pathology or dysfunction manifest as temporomandibular (TMJ) disorders.
AIM OF THE STUDY: To establish the presence of Borrelia burgdorferi spirochaetes in the histopathological material obtained from the intra-articular space by arthroscopy from patients with advanced TMJ disorders.
SUBJECTS AND METHODS: The histopathological material was obtained intra-articularly from 31 patients by means of arthroscopy; apart from routine H+E staining, the material was additionally examined for the presence of micro-organisms (spirochaetes) by the Warthin-Starry method.
RESULTS: Seven out of 31 patients presenting with manifesting TMJ dysfunction had spirochaetes detected in the histopathological material; their shape and size resembling B. burgdorferi bacteria.
CONCLUSION: This paper is the first to indicate that in borreliosis the infective agent may localize itself to the temporomandibular joint.
This observation cannot be ignored when analyzing the pathogenesis of TMJ degeneration especially that tick-borne infections with spirochaetes are definitely more common than it is generally believed.
PMID: 18023198 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
posted
I think I had trouble with tmj during lyme. But I had it years ago one time, too, during a "period of elevated stress". Thus for me I think it was more of anxiety related effect; thus a secondary effect, rather than directly from the lyme itself. (Lyme caused considerable anxiety!) DaveS
Posts: 4567 | From ithaca, NY, usa | Registered: Nov 2000
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Temperomandibular Joint Disorder refers to the Jaw Joint and orofacial pain including pain, discomfort or stiffness in or around the ear, jaw joint, muscles of the jaw, face, temples and neck on one or both sides.
Thanks for posting this Tincup!
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
DUH!!! Iam getting so tired of this study that study why in the heck dont they come up with a antibiotic that kills these sumb*tches and cure all of us. This is crazy and very painfull delay's.
Sorry TC luv ya
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
Yes Tincup.... I have this now...and since July when these symptoms started. My jaw,facial nerve a and teeth (implants from last year) have been killing me. The IV Rocephin seems to have taken the edge off...but it still kicks in on and off during the day. (Day 22 on the meds... ) Aside from the pain I really hate this..since I cannot chew.
Posts: 422 | From CT | Registered: Oct 2007
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
I had TMJ problems. I've been seeing a TMJ specialist now and after two years, am almost done ... braces come off in Feb. I started with a splint to move my jaw, then used braces to move my teeth to the right position to keep my jaw in place.
I definitely think the Lyme contributed because my TMJ pain got worse when my Lyme became more active. However, my joint was also bad due to my poor occlusion (bite).
Taking into account Scott's post on "terrain", it seems that the bacteria were taking advantage of the bad joint. In my case, I started treating the TMJ before I started treating the Lyme, and my TMJ pain was completely gone before Lyme treatment even started.
I do think Lyme aggravates TMJ, but I also theorize that it's only in those of us who have a tendency toward TMJ problems ... we provide the right environment in that joint for the ketes.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
yes, i agree borrealis go into the tmj and assoc. bones and joints. the question is, what to do about it? im on levaquin now, which does get to bone infections, but......i still have it
i have clicking on my LEFT side which was been present since the onset in nov 06 and just increases/decreases in serverity. some days its completely gone.
i guess the question remains, what to do about it?
get a mouthgaurd and continue to pummel my body w abx, maybe some that are made for bone infection?
lyme scholars, help me here, what abx OTHER then levaquin can treat BONE infection?
thanks
humbly
derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
Derek, I wore a splint made specifically by a TMJ specialist orthodontist for 6 months, 24/7 (even ate with it on). ALL my pain was gone within a few weeks!
My joint was badly misaligned ... this splint retrained the muscles to hold my joint in the right place. Though abx can kill the bacteria in the joint, I don't see how it can realign the joint.
The splint did that, now I'm wearing braces to get my teeth in the right place to keep my joint stable.
I had bone wear in this joint ... so it will never be completely right, but I have no more pain and no more clicking ... ever.
Going through TMJ treatment, in hindsight, was a very good decision.
BTW, TMJ treatment is covered under MEDICAL insurance, not dental! Mine was 100% covered, even the braces!!!
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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valymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7076
posted
Both my sons have TMJ and both are with a specialist and now have splints to wear daily. They each had an MRI of the jaw bone and then a few x-rays. My 21 year old showed "arthritis unusual for a young person." ( When this was first posted I copied it and sent it to his specialist.)
I had horrible shin pain as a bart symptom and with levaquin was able to get rid of it. I also have been off abx for 10 months now since I was symptom-free for two months while being treated.
I immediately started a daily regimen that included resveratrol, samento and or cat's claw (whichever I bought that month) along with other supplements.
Wouldn't you know I recently did not order more resveratrol and I haven't taken it for 5/6 weeks. Well.......
The shin pain is back!!! The reason I went to resveratrol was because Buhner says it treats bart. (I hope my order comes in today)
It is something you may want to start taking. I have told both sons when they are completely on herbals (one is already month 4 of Cowden), resveratrol is a must.
Posts: 1240 | From Centreville,VA | Registered: Mar 2005
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
thanks everyone for your replies and suggestions.
i am going to look into getting a splint.
how long of a process and how many visits was it to get this done?
i assume a consult, then they take an impression, then they make it? (the splint)
can you be more spesific?
thanks!
derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
This happened to me too, early on. I was lying around in bed and suddenly could no longer open my mouth. Went to an oral surgeon and he made me a splint. The pain and dysfunction stopped immediately.
His was one of the offices I called after I got a Lyme diagnosis. As usual, they were unaware of Lyme causing this condition.
So I wonder how it is today with oral surgeons. Do they know yet about Lyme and TMJ? Has it been discussed in dental journals? Will the above article get published in dental journals? Doc Dave, this might be a question for you...
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
Derek, that's about right. Then I went in for monthly checkups. They don't charge for individual appts. though, it's a one time fee.
Be sure it's an ortho who specializes in TMJ work. Even if you wear braces, if you don't fix the joint first, you will just have straight teeth and still have a bad jaw.
There are other types of splints ... some are just worn during the night. They don't really fix the TMJ but just take the stress of the joint at night. That wasn't enough for me. I guess it works for some.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
I'm going on 3years of splint therapy for TMJ. It's been popping and clicking for 20 years and decided to lock up last year. I had a 15 mm opening. It was very painful and I lost too much weight eating through a straw for 3 months.
I went to Dr.S in Ohio (wonderful man) who unlocked it and xrays showed a bilateral disc dislocation with atrophy of the joint. I now have my third splint and use a TENS Unit, and on my third set of prolotherapy shots to help with pain.
None of this was covered under dental or health insurance.
I go for adjustment for the splint about every two weeks depending on my pain. I still get some crunchy sounds in my left TMJ and can't eat any crunchy or chewy foods.
I believe I've had Lyme for over 20 years so this could definitly be lyme in my joint. Who knows
-------------------- Bart Henslea 1976 Fibro/CFS/arthritis 2004 Lyme diagnosed 2007 3 1/2 years treatment with oral combos, Cowden, IV roc. BW herbs. Off all abx in 12/10. Feeling good. Posts: 647 | From NY | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Oh I think I'm gonna print this off and give it to my Dr. who does the prolotherapy shots. Dunno if he's gonna laugh at me.
Wish I could laugh without pain
-------------------- Bart Henslea 1976 Fibro/CFS/arthritis 2004 Lyme diagnosed 2007 3 1/2 years treatment with oral combos, Cowden, IV roc. BW herbs. Off all abx in 12/10. Feeling good. Posts: 647 | From NY | Registered: Dec 2007
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
TS96, is this a hard splint you wear even to eat?
I didn't get anything from the splint that you took off when you eat, I needed the 24/7 splint, which permanently moved my jaw. Now, as I mentioned, I have braces to move my teeth to keep my jaw in place.
My mouth used to get stuck open .... I haven't eaten chewy food for over 25 years (except for a couple caramels at Christmas time) .... and I also do things like cut up apples, etc. There have been accommodations I've had to make, but the pain is now gone.
I hope you get there!
We had to fight to get it covered under medical .... thanks to our doctor's understanding on how to do it ... it'd medical since it's a joint problem, not a dental problem.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200
posted
quote:Originally posted by Tincup: This observation cannot be ignored when analyzing the pathogenesis of TMJ degeneration especially that tick-borne infections with spirochaetes are definitely more common than it is generally believed.
Ya think??
Seriously.
I wonder if any of the patients in this study knew they had lyme or had been treated for it.
Prolly not.
Poor dears.
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
TC, good post; i missed it the 1st time! printed if off; will take it to dentist/my pcp next time.
posted
After reading this post, I wonder if those tick-borne infections with spirochates could make a home in other joints in your body.
I never had any joint pain until LYME, now my right shoulder at times is un moveable due to pain. My left elbow has the same pain and at times can not pick up a tea cup.
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disturbedme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12346
posted
quote:Originally posted by mushroomman06: After reading this post, I wonder if those tick-borne infections with spirochates could make a home in other joints in your body.
YES, of course they do!!! They've given me arthritis pain, TMJ, and also made my tailbone ache when it's never hurt before.
-------------------- One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar. ~ Helen Keller
My Lyme Story Posts: 2965 | From Land of Confusion (bitten in KS, moved to PA, now living in MD) | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Mushroom said.. "My left elbow has the same pain and at times can not pick up a tea cup.""
That's a TIN cup silly... not a TEA cup! HA!
I find penicillin works for me. Also for mouth/jaw stuff K-flex worked wonders. It is for getting into the soft tissues better and is used by dentists for other infections sometimes.
posted
This is not the place to post this but I really dont know where to.
Tincup, you really made me laugh with your reply about the teacup. Its great to have people like you to bring about a good feeling and laughter when one is climbing a steep hill with LYME
Posts: 108 | From maryland | Registered: Sep 2007
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
I had very severe arthritis TMJ at the onset. I no longer have it.
What fixed it? Removing the last 3 amalgams and my dentist saying "Lips together, teeth apart". Amazing how much jaw clinching I had been doing.
At the time he removed the amalgams, I could barely open my mouth. Made it very challenging work for him. Within two weeks of removal, my jaw was back to normal and has remained so.
Before removal, I was teeth clinching badly in my sleep. Now I do not.
The removal occured in May 06.
Luvs
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
I have read that nocturnal teeth clenching/grinding, which I believe can cause TMJ by wearing at the joint, can be caused by parasites.
I used to have a big problem with TMJ, I'm not so sure when it stopped. I don't know if it was ABX w/Tx for Babs or Lyme. I haven't had any holistic or biological dentistry done & when I tried to do the night splint thing, my dog ate the splint.
I believe I still had it when I started Txing, but I really can't recall.
I had read in Alt Med & Nutritional Healing books that some things deemed helpful for parasites are papaya (seeds good also, but taste like pepper), GARLIC and bitter melon (which I think is best eaten fresh & tastes pretty awful).
I do regularly eat papayas and periodically will consume what I call "medicinal quantities" of garlic & olive oil (usually with linguini ). I figure I actually enjoy it & what harm could it do? I also use garlic a lot in cooking but I think that comes from my Italian grandmother (GRHS).
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
AliG said.. "..when I tried to do the night splint thing, my dog ate the splint."
I wish I had a nickle for every time I've heard that!
Mushroom said... "This is not the place to post this but I really dont know where to."
Please dear mushroom... you post what you want, where ever you want. Beware though... this comes from the WORST offender.. so we BOTH may end up in LymeNet jail with that advise.
I think we live under too many rules and restrictions.. and with Lyme we have so many more. If I post something in the wrong spot once in a while... I guess they will just have to fry me in apple butter.. or get over it.
Mushroom said.. "Tincup, you really made me laugh with your reply about the teacup. Its great to have people like you to bring about a good feeling and laughter when one is climbing a steep hill with LYME."
If I got even a smile from you.. that is good.
Actually ... laughter is the best medicine. Dr. B- THE Dr. B - said that all Lyme patients should laugh at least once a day. And he IS the man!
Many volunteers are here on a regular basis trying to help others... bless their hearts. It is some kind a hard and depressing to only hear how much pain is involved in this process and to watch new folks come here who are suffering.
If I didn't find SOME humor in this work... well... like my OTHER main man Jimmy Buffet says so nicely in a song...
trueblue
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7348
posted
quote:Originally posted by sixgoofykids: Derek, I wore a splint made specifically by a TMJ specialist orthodontist for 6 months, 24/7 (even ate with it on). ALL my pain was gone within a few weeks!
My joint was badly misaligned ... this splint retrained the muscles to hold my joint in the right place. Though abx can kill the bacteria in the joint, I don't see how it can realign the joint.
The splint did that, now I'm wearing braces to get my teeth in the right place to keep my joint stable.
I had bone wear in this joint ... so it will never be completely right, but I have no more pain and no more clicking ... ever.
Going through TMJ treatment, in hindsight, was a very good decision.
BTW, TMJ treatment is covered under MEDICAL insurance, not dental! Mine was 100% covered, even the braces!!!
Six, what type of splint did you have? The upper doesn;t support my jaw at all. This concerns me.
I'm going my third round of splints in 30 years. This is the first one that is an upper. The previosu were lowers and just kept my muscles relaxed.
The new DMD say this will help realign because no work can be done until the the positioning is right. He says there's no way for an orthodontist to touch me as is.
I'm going in weekly or every other week but this splint is relieving nothing. I was in the same position as you, serious malocculsion and cross bite from Orthodonture in my teens. Had TMJ since. None of my teeth meet. (It was prelyme)
This is causing more problems than without. I don't know whether to continue. I have no insurance but got a reduced price on the splint and follow up. Everytime I go it take 2 hours of torture trying to figure out what adjustments to make. I cannot posistion my jaw to get it right. Dang, I'm lucky it's attached at all.
Every visit is more traumatic and wind up crying in the office. I wonder if I'm in the right place. They are so nice to me but I feel like it's futile.
If you should see this and have any input or advice could you PM me?
Thanks for any input. I'm hoping for some guidance to foist on the dentist to make sure he is doing the right thing.
Thank in advance, Trueblue
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