sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I found this article today.
It doesn't exactly address Lyme directly but I thought it was of interest.
I'm open to antibiotic treatment but I've always heard of the dangers of overuse.
I took them for about 8 months and didn't get any better - so, I'm alittle suspect that they are the best way to get better from chronic Lyme for many people.
I see that some of you do well with them but some don't.
I don't know the answer but I just don't like the idea of taking large doses of antibiotics.
If there was some actual studies it would help.
We all have to experiment to find out what works.
Hopefully, we can find a way to get better without doing alot of harm to ourselves.
Antibiotics Kill Your Body's Good Bacteria, Too, Leading to Serious Health Risks
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Dr. Mercola's Comment:
The information that follows is a two-part article taken directly from Doug Kaufmann and Dave Holland, MD's new book, "The Fungus Link, Volume 2." Inside this follow-up to the Fungus Link, published in 2000, you'll not only learn about the dangers of antibiotics. You'll also learn about the ins and outs of natural and prescriptive antifungals. Additionally, Doug and Dave share with you the role fungi and their mycotoxins play in what are unfortunately everyday diseases such as prostatitis, ear-nose-throat disorders, weight problems (including obesity and anorexia), autoimmune diseases, hormonal disorders, neurologic diseases, hair loss, and eye problems.
To preorder this or any of Doug Kaufmann's books, you can call Doug's office at 972-772-0990, M-F 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM Central.
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by Doug Kaufmann
"It is ironic that this humbled fungus, hailed as a benefactor of mankind, may by its very success prove to be a deciding factor in the decline of the present civilization."
-Dr. John I. Pitt, The Genus Penicillum, Academic Press, 1979
Simply put, antibiotics are poisons that are used to kill. Only licensed physicians can prescribe them. The drugs are used to kill bacteria. Certainly, many people have benefited from using them. However, if bacteria were the only organisms that antibiotics killed, much of this book would be unnecessary. In fact, I con tend that poisons that kill small organisms in small doses -- organism-specific varieties notwithstanding -- can also kill big organisms, when they are taken in big doses. You, my friend, are a big organism.
We've talked about the link between fungus and human disease. This chapter addresses the possibility that antibiotics may help fungi to proliferate within the human body.
As an adult human, you have three to four pounds of beneficial bacteria and yeast living within your intestines. These microbes compete for nutrients from the food you eat. Usually, the strength in numbers beneficial bacteria enjoy both keeps the ever-present yeasts in check and causes them to produce nutrients such as the B vitamins.
However, every time you swallow antibiotics, you kill the beneficial bacteria within your intestines. When you do so, you upset the delicate balance of your intestinal terrain. Yeasts grow unchecked into large colonies and take over, in a condition called dysbiosis.
Yeasts are opportunistic organisms. This means that, as the intestinal bacteria die, yeasts thrive, especially when their dietary needs are met. They can use their tendrils, or hyphae, to literally poke holes through the lining of your intestinal wall. This results in a syndrome called leaky gut. Yeasts are not the only possible cause of this syndrome. Some scientists have linked non-steroidal, anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDS) such as naproxen and ibuprofen to the problem. Given their ability to alter intestinal terrain, antibiotics also likely contribute to leaky gut syndrome.
In addition to possibly causing leaky gut syndrome, I believe that parasitic yeasts can also cause you to change what you eat in that they encourage you to binge on carbohydrates including pasta, bread, sugar, potatoes, etc. So, it should come as no surprise that weight gain counts as one of the telltale signs of antibiotic damage and subsequent yeast overgrowth.
By altering the normal terrain of the intestines, antibiotics can also make food allergies more likely. An array of intestinal disorders can ensue, as well. Sadly, most doctors claim ignorance concerning their patients' intestinal disorders rather than admit that the drugs they themselves prescribed actually caused the disorders to begin with.
Tons of antibiotics are fed to American livestock on a daily basis, purportedly to proof them against bacteria. This practice not only possibly contributes to antibiotic resistance in humans -- many experts feel weight gain, and not disease prevention, is the real reason antibiotics are so widely used. Fat cattle sell for more than thin cattle. That's all very well, but imagine what the antibiotics thereby possibly present in dairy products could be doing to our children's health.
Back in the 1950s, two researchers in Albany, New York, worked to develop an antimicrobial drug from a substance produced by a soil-based fungus. Although the nystatin they discovered is technically a mycotoxin, it works wonders an intestinal antifungal. This as yet revolutionary drug stops the yeast overgrowth caused by all other antibiotics and is 100 percent safe to use. In addition, nystatin works with no side effects, though it can cause a pseudo sickness that patients often confuse with side effects.
Also in the 1950s, scientists used mice to grade the relative toxicity of 340 antibiotics (Dr. William S. Spector, The Handbook of Toxicity, 1957). The researchers based their rankings on the amount of a given antibiotic required to kill half of the lab mice injected with it. I relate this story only to ask you, before 1957, how did scientists decide what would serve as prescriptive doses for these very same antibiotics when used in humans?
I'll assume that the same toxicity scale remains in place today. If it does, and if a given dose of penicillin will kill 50 percent of mice injected, it stands to reason that a much larger dose, or perhaps repetitive doses extended over 40 years, might prove fatal to a human. I don't know if larger doses are in fact administered to people. And, the 40-year scenario has its problems. But you have to admit, it's certainly food for thought.
The time span between when patients take rounds of antibiotics and when they die interests me. That's because I believe that few people really die of heart disease and diabetes. In actuality, antibiotics are responsible for deaths attributed to these diseases, because these drugs are what caused people to develop the diseases to begin with. And yet, incredibly, death certificates usually state the probable cause of death without mentioning whether the deceased had a history of taking antibiotics.
Remember, antibiotics are dangerous mycotoxins -- fungal metabolites. Just as importantly, medical experts have written articles maintaining that these drugs kill people. But, other experts insist on remaining sceptical as to the problem, even though these same experts readily recognize the link between weakened immune systems and death.
According to the 2001 Allergy and Asthma Report, the first immunodeficiency syndrome was identified in 1952. This document tells us that since that time, "more than 95 immune syndromes have been identified, with new conditions coming to light every day." The report goes on to say that research indicates that "increased antibiotic use in human infancy may be associated with increased risk of developing allergies."
Max Planck won the 1918 Nobel Prize in Physics. He once weighed in as to why science is slow to change even in the presence of overwhelming evidence that it should do so.
"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light," Planck said, "but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with the ideas from the beginning."
That a new generation will grow up knowing of the dangers inherent in taking antibiotics is a good thing. That doctors will continue randomly prescribing fungal toxins should teach us the importance of knowing medical facts before blindly accepting any prescription. Please study the antimicrobial benefits and the immune system stimulants that nature provides. Know also that, in some instances, antibiotics may become necessary.
If you reach the point where no alternatives exist, I recommend that you ask your doctor to prescribe nystatin simultaneously with the antibiotic (see Dr. Holland's article). Also, keep in mind the post-antibiotic importance of restoring the intestinal terrain with plain yogurt and probiotics. If you experience bloating, belching, gas, constipation, diarrhea, GERD, or other intestinal problems, probiotics can play an important role in restoring your intestinal terrain.
Antibiotics -- to Take or Not to Take?
by David A. Holland, M.D.
I looked up antibiotics in Harrison's Textbook of Internal Medicine. The listing referred me to "antimicrobials." This caused me to realize how much more accurately the second term describes these substances, given the broad-spectrum nature of a lot of them.
I must confess that, as a doctor, I do prescribe "antimicrobials." Perhaps I prescribe more antifungals and nonprescription remedies than the usual doctor, but I do prescribe antibiotics, as well. Perhaps even more horrifying, considering Doug's articles condemning them, is that I've taken them myself! In fact, in these times it's a rare individual who goes through life without ingesting those little pills. So, three questions have become important -- when should you take antibiotics, when should you refrain, and what will you do when you've already taken them?
Alexander Fleming, by the grace of God, brought us a mixed blessing in 1928 with his accidental discovery of penicillin produced by, of all things, a fungus. Medicine's interest treating people for exposure to fungi dropped dramatically in succeeding years, until the microbes were only thought important insofar as their ability to produce increasingly diverse varieties of antibiotics.
Interest in fighting bacteria proliferated like a flesh-eating Strep infection, fueling the race to discover ever more antibiotics. Pharmaceutical salespeople invaded doctors' offices and hospitals, intent on convincing physicians their antibiotic was better than the others. These salespeople supported their pitches with studies, graphs, charts and convincing stats, while often failing to mention that their research had been funded by their own companies. The possible conflict of interest was, and remains, enormous.
I have no quarrel with such salespeople. They're regular men and women like you and me, just trying to make a living. However, when human lives are involved, funding research to prove that your own product is better than the competition's is just plain wrong. The advantage is obvious, and the danger that a great deal of objectivity could be lost is only all too real.
I believe that an impartial, third party should be assigned to perform such research, funded by a mandatory "ante" from all pharmaceutical compan ies involved in producing a given category of drug. Of course, that will be the day! In case the above scenario never happens, we would do well to take with several grains of salt the unregulated information that companies provide about their own products.
Perhaps you are wondering about the use -- and abuse -- of antibiotics in general. Let me give you an example. One of the most common diagnoses given at a doctor's office is the upper respiratory infection (URI). It accounts for up to 70 percent of all antibiotics dispensed (Annals of Internal Medicine. American College of Physicians. American Society of Internal Medicine. March 20, 2001).
However, according to Dr. Carol Kauffman, most URIs are not caused by the bacteria that antibiotics are designed to fight. Rather, Kauffman says, they are caused by fungi. So, unless a secondary, bacterial infection presents itself -- and even then, the rules change -- most URIs do not require the use of antibiotics.
Regarding ear infections, in one study, children administered antibiotics for acute otitis media suffered double the rate of adverse effects compared to children in the study who took placebos (Clinical Evidence. 2000). The difference in outcome for those children in the study who took antibiotics compared to those who do not was almost negligible. Some scientists counter that children who take antibiotics run lower risks of secondary ear infections such as meningitis or mastoiditis (infection of the angular bone located behind your ear).
Of course, the landscape is complicated by noncompliance. The portion of people who take their antibiotics as prescribed has been estimated at anywhere between 8 to 68 percent. So it's difficult to say just how effective antibiotics actually are.
Now, say my daughter were to get sick for 10 days, miserable with a high fever and screaming ear pain. Say our doctor said her ear canal checked out as angry red. Am I going to have my daughter take the prescription? Probably so. We cared for a young woman at the hospital where I worked who was literally at her death bed with overwhelming Streptococcal -- bacterial -- pneumonia. One of her lungs was saturated with the infection, which had also spread throughout her bloodstream.
I went on to my next rotation thinking that was the last I would hear of that patient. However, I later spoke with her attending physician. He told me she walked out of that hospital, completely cured. So, antibiotics save lives, but it's not exactly a common occurrence. Certainly, most of you out there suffering from the common cold are not near death, so you should think twice about taking antibiotics.
The non-synthetic antibiotics are fungal by-products called mycotoxins. Penicillin is perhaps the best example. In other words, mycotoxins kill off fungi's competitors, allowing fungi to grab up all of the nutrients for themselves. Alexander Fleming himself observed this in action, and it later led him to develop penicillin. When a mold -- molds are fungi -- contaminated a bacteria colony upon which Fleming was performing an experiment, the invader cleared the area around it of all bacteria. When Fleming investigated, It turned out that the fungus had produced a substance he would later call penicillin, killing the bacteria in residence.
Just because they kill bacteria, you may be thinking, doesn't mean that some, many or especially all of the mycotoxins used as antibiotics are necessarily harmful to human beings. A. V. Costantini in effect counters this idea when he speaks of the work of two scientists by the name of Bernstein and Ross. Costantini says that the men found that two or more months of treatment with penicillin and other antibiotics contributed to what they saw as a "significantly increased risk of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma in humans (Costantini, A. V. Fungalbionics. 1998)."
How many people, children included, have undergone dose after dose of antibiotics for recurring infections? Doug and I believe that these relatively small doses taken over long periods of time are actually harming us in similar, incremental fashion, later showing up as cancer, diabetes, vasculitis or other diseases.
We take antibiotics when we are sick, when our immune systems weaken. The mycotoxins pharmacies dispense for use as antibiotics only exacerbate the problem, because the lion's share of these substances have been shown to be immunosuppressants (CAST Report No. 116. November 1989.). Not only are they capable of hamstringing our immune systems, they also destroy the friendly bacteria that guard our intestines.
These friendly bacteria include Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidus and Bulgaricus, supplements for which can be found in any health food store's refrigerated section. They protect us against pathogens such as Salmonella, yeast, cholera, and the bad E. coli. They are so potent that, prior a trip abroad, to protect yourself from traveler's diarrhea you'd do better to skip the usual antibiotics and instead take acidophilus supplements.
Unfortunately, these good flora are so vulnerable to antibiotics that, in mice, a "single injection of streptomycin can eradicate the protective effect of the normal flora. (Mandell. Principles and Practice of Infectious Diseases. 2000.)" And, once gone, these friendly bacteria are replaced by hostile bacteria such as Pseudomonas, Clostridium, and Klebsiella, and by Candida yeast, a powerful member of the fungi family.
So, we have the good and the bad regarding our chemical friends known as antibiotics. They can "save the day" at times, but they have ruined them at others -- just ask any woman with a yeast infection or look at any baby who suffers from thrush. You should know that, even should you just say "no" when your doctor moves to prescribe antibiotics for you, theoretically speaking you may still be taking them with every bite of steak and pork you eat.
That's because more antibiotics per pound are used on livestock than in human medicine. How much of those antibiotics are passed on is difficult to determine, but the mere possibility of this kind of thing is certainly a worry.
Our goal in this book is to educate you and to help you make informed decisions. Some final, simple tips follow:
An ounce of prevention.... Exercise, eat intelligently and take a few supplements. Avoid alcohol, smoking, and recreational drugs. Get some rest once in a while. Pray.
Despite our best efforts, most of us will get sick at some point and decide to go see a doctor. If you are a stubborn, married man, your wife will likely make the appointment for you.
Ask Questions. If your doctor diagnoses you with an upper respiratory infection, sore throat (in which the strep test is negative), bronchitis, sinusitis, or ear infection, and you wonder if you really need an antibiotic, make a point of asking her about it. A lot of physicians would be pleasantly surprised that one of their patients would even consider trying to recuperate without antibiotics. Ask if you can treat your condition symptomatically and come back or call in a couple of days if you are not better.
If your questions annoy your doctor, then get another doctor. After all, you pay the bills, either directly or out of your paycheck in the form of insurance, and you deserve adequate treatment. On the other hand, if you feel you, in fact, do need an antibiotic and your doctor disagrees, try to work a deal in which she will prescribe an antibiotic for you if you don't feel better in a couple of days. I learned an important lesson about this kind of disagreement during college, on a visit to the infirmary. The doctor there refused to give me an antibiotic for a URI I'd come down with. I had to suppress my anger at what I saw as arrogance on his part, but lo and behold, he was right. I got better without the pills I'd been sure I'd needed. I think a lot of people tend to underestimate their bodies' healing abilities, in much the same way as I did. That's just one reason why doctors are oftentimes in a better position to make the call as to whether or not to prescribe.
Take an objective look at yourself and your life-style. If you keep coming down with the same thing, do some research and a little thinking. Do you drink a lot of soda? Do you smoke? Are you taking antibiotic after antibiotic and now have a secondary yeast or fungal infection? How is your spiritual life? Your stress level? The point is, myriad factors contribute to "wellness."
As far as chronic sinus infections go, Johns Hopkins researchers are now saying most such conditions are caused by a fungus. So, if you do have chronic sinusitis, stop taking antibiotics, get on an antifungal diet, and ask your doctor for antifungal medications. If your doctor refuses, visit a health food store for natural, off-the-shelf antifungals such as olive leaf extract, garlic, and Caprylic acid.
Once you improve, make sure you go back and let your doctor know how things worked out. Chances are she is neither experienced nor comfortable with prescribing antifungal medication. Your story may convince her to do her own research, the first step to changing her treatment philosophy.
It shouldn't be too difficult to convince your doctor to let you try a prescription of nystatin. As one of the better gut antifungals, nystatin is also remarkably safe and free of side-effects.
If you've decided to go ahead and take an antibiotic:
Get the facts. Ask your doctor how many days you must take the antibiotic and if you, in fact, do need the latest, most powerful one on the market. Simple urinary tract infections are now treated with only three days of antibiotics. Sinus infections, bronchitis, and ear infections in children over two years of age can be treated with as few as five days of antibiotics, new or old, generic or name brand. This may not be possible, however, if you have other medical conditions or if you smoke.
Build trust. Commit to the full course of the antibiotic unless you experience significant side effects or an allergic reaction. You sought medical advice and agreed to the prescription. You will build trust with your doctor if you work as a team. This trust will be very important once you see number 3 below.
Take an antifungal with the antibiotic. For example, you could ask your doctor for a prescription of nystatin to take during the course of your antibiotic. Many dermatologists do this when prescribing long-term antibiotic courses for acne. I suggest adults take two tablets twice a day -- 1 cc of suspension twice a day for children -- to prevent yeast overgrowth in your intestines. Most cases of upset stomach or diarrhea that kick in a few days of beginning a round of antibiotics can be cured with a single dose of the drug. Diarrhea after a two-week round of antibiotics is likely caused by a different bug altogether -- be sure to bring that to your doctor's attention.
I should tell you that, in my clinical practice years, many of my patients made great strides against acne through taking nystatin and a change in diet alone, without the antibiotics.
Supplement your intake. Take an antioxidant supplement, one which includes vitamin E, zinc, selenium, vitamin C, and vitamin A, among others. According to A.V. Costantini, all antioxidants are antifungal. (Costantini. 1998.)
Keep your bowels moving. If antibiotics kill off your friendly, intestinal bacteria, once you cease taking antibiotics you'll run a higher risk of infection by other, more hostile bacteria. These bacteria will be quick to find and exploit pockets of debris that could be collecting and putrefying in your intestines if you happen to become constipated. So, be sure to keep your digestive tract as clear as possible until you can repopulate it with friendly bacteria. Psyllium hulls fiber from your local health food store is the best, bulk fiber to use, as long as you don't have a history of intestinal obstruction. Psyllium not only relieves constipation. It also slows diarrhea by absorbing excess water.
Replace the good bacteria in your intestines. Supplement with an acidophilus supplement for a few weeks following any course of antibiotics. Do not take these simultaneously with your antibiotic, or you will simply end up with a lot of very dead, albeit still friendly bacteria in your intestines. At the very most, take acidophilus supplements either in between antibiotic doses or after you have completely finished your prescription.
Look back at why you became ill to begin with. I once suffered from strep throat after indulging in half a box of chocolates. That should have come as no surprise. Who wouldn't be crippled by that amount of garbage? More than likely, you have your own experience regarding similar binges. My point is, diet plays at least as much a role as actual exposure to germs as to whether we get sick -- when we are healthy and eating correctly, our bodies are amazingly resistant to infection.
One, last note: Please ignore advertisements that recommend guzzling orange juice for the vitamin C it contains. A big dose of sugar is what you'd actually be getting. I have heard more than a few patients note that once they felt they were coming down with something, they immediately began downing glass after glass of orange juice, only to get even sicker. They concluded that they must not have caught the illness in time, which couldn't have been any further from the truth.
The truth is, they simply fueled the fire of their infections with lots of sugar, all because they trusted a corporation's advertisement to educate them about proper healing strategies. If you want that much vitamin C, you will be perfectly fine taking it in the 1,000 mg pill form a few times a day. As far as fluid requirements are concerned, your body is 70 percent water -- and that is exactly what it needs!
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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Shosty
Unregistered
posted
Sparkle, I wish I had taken antibiotics for less time. I was on for 6 years, and any improvement that I experienced really stopped after one year.
Both my daughter and I have developed GI problems, yeast infections in GI tract (diagnosed by endoscopy), leaky gut, and massive new food allergies. There seems to be something permanently awry with our immune systems.
We both still have low CD57's, positive ANA's, etc., and I'm sure Western Blots recently done will confirm what we know: that the Lyme is still in us. We are trying to see it as a chronic illness, and find other ways to deal with it besides more antibiotics.
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-------------------- 4 strong winds that blow lonely, 7 seas that run high.
All those things that don't change Come what may. Posts: 103 | From Dallas/ Fort Worth. TX | Registered: Dec 2007
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Thanks, Sparkle - there are some very good points made in these articles. I'm sure this is a concern of nearly everyone here on this board. Even if I thought I could tolerate months or years of abx, I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of it.
The fungal connection mentioned in the articles you posted may be significant.
One of the reasons the Schardt Protocol for treatment of Lyme caught my attention was because of the specific treatment of fungal issues as part of the program. I think Dr. Schardt may be on to something with his approach.
If we seriously upset the ecology of the body in one way, I think we'd better be willing to compensate for it just as aggressively.
Plus, the more I hear about Dr. Tullio Simoncini - an oncologist who is successfully treating many cancer patients with bicarbonate of soda - and his theories about cancer being caused by fungal colonies, the more the pieces of the puzzle seem to come together.
I recently ran across an article which implies a connection between the long-term use of antibiotics and the incidence of breast cancer. (I'll have to find that and post it one of these days.)
If we connect the dots regarding breast cancer and long-term abx, and accept that long-term abx often cause a proliferation of fungal growth, then Simoncini's theories about cancer caused by fungus seem that much more plausible, and his treatment successes bear this out!
Thanks again for posting these articles.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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mojo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9309
posted
I HATE the fact that in February I will have been on ABX for two years - yet I will take them for as long as I need to in order to get well.
I personally know people who are leading normal healthy lives after taking ABX for years to put their Lyme in remission.
I take anti-fungals and probiotics as well as other supplements for my immune system. I am hoping to add some herbal tinctures that kill Lyme, yeast and fungus.
I am willing to try any alternative treatment my Dr. recommends. I want to get better. Period.
Posts: 1761 | From USA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Risk and reward...like pretty much everything in life.
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kelmo
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Member # 8797
posted
Isn't chemo also dangerous to the body? I wouldn't get too far telling someone with leukemia to try a little oil of oregano.
My doctor considered my daughter a "treatment failure" after two years of abx. She is having great results with mino, we hope will last.
When we started treatment, our LLMD said, "oh..antibiotics can kill ya, but the alternative isn't looking very promising". He was referring to the steady eating away of her life with the bacteria.
I like balance, Dr. Mercola seems leans a little too strongly to one side. There HAS to be a happy medium. We use lots of supplements, as well. But, we know the supplements aren't the cure.
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Why, OH, Why are people around here as well as
in the media ignoring the study done by Dr Fallon up in Columbia University?
Come on now kiddies,you know the ones I mean.......exactly what "studies" have these fungal guys done in relation to the
consequences, "risk reward" of using antibiotics to defeat TBI's?
NONE! NONE and oh yeah, NONE!...LOL!
Your article does'nt address lyme disease per sey, because these anti-antibiotic folks would
probably tell you that utilization of antibiotics in the case of TBI's is one of the
only GOOD uses of these drugs. Given what can happen to the brain and every other
organ,muscle,nerve,ligament,cartiledge(need I go ON), in the body as opposed to a humans gut!
Antibiotics given, with knowledge of using probiotics, and or detox regimens, which to this
day, mainstream ducks never ever tell their patients to do....ever!
Funny....I don't see any of those studies...Ya know the ones where when antibiotics are given
along with replacing probiotics, very little dammage is witnessed in the patients.
Yet a study that was done and completed just this year escapes everyone!
Why is that.
Why is it, that there are many and varied other diseases, that long term antibiotic usage is a way of life for that human...
and it has'nt created any "super bugs" in them, and no long term irreversible consequences have
ever hit the annals of medical science, the media or this board in particular, concerning any of those maladies.
Why is it that the ILADS doctors admit to some problems with antibiotic use yet state for all
to see, that the alternative is worse than ANYTHING one could get from killing off a few billion "good bacteria".
The bad bacteria, that are causeing the nervous system that drives the digestive glands and muscles to
malfunction in the first place, thus causeing gastritis in most lyme infected patients, has
more to do with mitocondrial,pituitary,leaky guts and inflammed stomach linings then any antibiotic enhanced fungus, could possibly create.
I could write a book myself, on how many times I see these warnings of "OH MY GOD! YOU'RE TAKING HOW MUCH OF WHICH AND FOR HOW LONG?
Do you know what that's doing to your system?
I prefer not to be frightened by the propaganda machine that is, the fears of overuse of antibiotics.....
I'm personally dealing with a "SUPER BUG/BUGS" right now! they're called TBI's or TBD's....so, praise the ILADS doctors and please pass the abx.
I'll take something else for the diarrhea.
Because I AM going to beat the heck out of the crumb bum of a disease/s I'm stuck with.
Thank you very much!
zman
[ 27. December 2007, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: lymie tony z ]
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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Peacesoul
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posted
There are risks with any forms of treatment. Now having said that, I agree long term abx use is harmful, but I would not take Mercola's word for it. The guy is a nut as are the people who contribute to his site. I'm ALL for alternative meds and treatments, but it's people like Mercola that make respecrful alternatives look like kooks.
I think any meds used long term are harmful. And someone mentioned chemo. Chemo is not given for years like abx are. And Gleevec which is used for Leukemia does not kill healthy "parts" of our chemical make-up like abx do.
Whether we like it or not, we are the Guinea pigs of the lyme world (for now)
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Michelle M
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quote:Originally posted by sparkle7: If there was some actual studies it would help.
A search at www.pubmed.org using the search terms lyme + antibiotics produces 1282 studies. (Other terms such as borrelia or neuroborreliosis net more results.) Fallon's new study is pretty close to the top. Most lyme patients are cognizant of the need to protect and replace their good bacteria.
Hope that helps with the 'actual studies!'
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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Vermont_Lymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9780
posted
quote:Originally posted by meg: Respectfully, let me put it in a simple form also:
The dangers of antibiotic use... pale in comparison to the devastation of lyme disease upon the human body.
Yes, antibiotics saved my life -- on two ocassions, both brought about by nasty tick bites.
In the past year and one-half, antibiotics have been restoring me to health, for which I am profoundly grateful.
It is true that I have had a couple of days of diarrhea --- which I will take over the dementia, pain and paralysis from lyme that I had developed anyday!
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
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Geneal
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10375
posted
Sure doesn't stop those Doctors for Rx'ing long term antibiotics for acne.
I dislike taking all of my meds.
I dislike feeling like I am dying even more.
Yin and Yang. Good and Evil.
Sometimes you just can't win.
I'm trying though.
Hugs,
Geneal
Posts: 6250 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2006
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
Thanks for all the replies...
There are herbal alternatives to antibiotics which have had positive results.
I've had Lyme for 10 years... I tried abx for 8 months with little or no change. I have been open to anything that helps.
I just don't like the idea of what long term abx use can do & it is not proven effective in curing chronic Lyme. If I had caught the Lyme within a few months, it may have been very effective.
It's just that there are alot of issues here with fungus, yeast & mold creating toxins which are hard to get rid of, as well as, the neurotoxins from the dying spirochetes. There's more new research on what these things can do & what they may cause.
You really can't tell if the abx kill all of the spirochetes or if they turn into some other form waiting to reemerge at some future time. The studies seem to suggest that in short term they may help.
There are some people who they do not help... & they do have dangers.
Is it worth it to spray weed killer on your dandelions to have them return if you get cancer from toxins? Short term - maybe yes since your lawn looks nice without them. But is it worth the risk if they will just grow back next summer & you have to spray larger & larger doses?
I don't really know about acne or any other uses but it's worth a bit of caution before taking large doses of abx.
I wish everyone good luck & I'm not in favor of demanding people not use long term abx. It's just that the risks are worth considering.
Yeasts, molds, & funguses are very serious health hazards. Long term abx use is immuno-suppressive & we need that intact to get well.
Chemotherapy has very intense supervision. It seems that we are very much on our own to deal with the repercussions of these therapies.
I am very concerned about this sort of "do-it-yourself chemotherapy" we are all engaging in...
charlie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25
posted
It appears that the herbal protocols that do have some merit involve taking huge amounts of the substances...enough to replace antibiotics it would appear.
Hinting to your immune system to do something would be quite another matter.
the two lymies in this household along with other family members and friends did the do-it-yourself thing utilizing antibiotics the whole way through.
Last I checked none of us were dead or debilitated...indeed many of us are living full lives, with still the looming cloud on the horizon of course.
But we really shouldn't make any hard and fast rules about treatment options....except the one that states that there are no hard and fast rules.
Charlie
Posts: 2804 | From Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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tailz
Unregistered
posted
Electricity is the real problem - not antibiotics - not diet. As a kid I could sit there and eat bread, chips, twinkies - no fungal overgrowth.
Manmade electromagnetic and microwave fields are causing yeast to overgrow. These fields are also the cause of food allergies. Then we charge the toxins the yeast creates.
dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
Sparkle,
When I started abx treatment, I had been sick about 15 years. I did not notice any improvement until about NINE months on antibiotics (and Mepron). So, you may not have given it enough of a chance if you stopped at 8 months.
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
The Steerites,
who think ABX's are going to kill them for whatever reason...please send me the
address of the cemetery in which you've told your loved ones you wish to have your remains buried.
I have my "told you so" signs all ready!
Sincerely, your ABX taking lymie till they or I are gone,
zman
PS....ya know....Fungi and molds and stuff like to grow back also....you would know this if you ever did any gardening.
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
I don't hate antibiotics. I am grateful for them.
I was ultra-neuro Lyme.
Without them I would have been dead.
Without them I could still be dead.
I do not think longterm antibiotics are harmful as a rule. They have not been harmful for me.
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
I've been doing treatment since '99, 10 days after the flu-like illness from hell hit me. I did abx for about 8 weeks, then had positive EBV that fooled my Internists and me.
I did abx from Nov '99-May '03. What I did in abx didn't heal me. Today, if I could go back in time and change anything I would. Now that I know the rest of the story, and my doc knows where I would be 7+yrs later.....
I would do abx again. Not continually for 3 yrs, but I would do abx in a different way. I would hit it hard with some different combos in the early stages. I wouldn't go back to work after collapsing and taking 2 mths off, try killing myself for a career.
I would go to Dr C LLMD, before '02. Probably the Nov '99 date.
I would learn everything I could early on about alternative treatments before '03. Should have been doing most of this supps and detoxing before I became ill in July '99.
I should of been leading a healthier life for a 42 year old woman who had tons of toxics in her body. The tick (?) bite(s) was just the straw that broke this camels back.
So I believe abx, the right type and dosage is a must for early, acute and chronic lyme & company for ????? It all depends on history, your immune system, symptoms, toxins, unknown company (what I call co-infections).
It's a case by case. Nothing is black & white in this illness.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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Peacesoul
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by tailz: Electricity is the real problem - not antibiotics - not diet. As a kid I could sit there and eat bread, chips, twinkies - no fungal overgrowth.
Manmade electromagnetic and microwave fields are causing yeast to overgrow. These fields are also the cause of food allergies. Then we charge the toxins the yeast creates.
I know that you truly believe this, but I really don't think it's responsible to tell people diet has little to do with bad health. We are what we eat period.
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Thanks Sparkle for posting this information. I've been on abx for 19 months with no end in site and I for one want to know all the possible risks of any treatment, abx or not.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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Peacesoul
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by cave76:
****but I really don't think it's responsible to tell people diet has little to do with bad health. ****
True, in the big picture.
However, telling people that if you change your diet to (whatever that person's particular belief is) will cure you of a severe neurologic illness is also irresponsible.
Well I'm not sure who said something as silly as diet will cure, but from what I've seen on this site so far, I'm not suprised that would have been said. Diet is key to health no matter what illness one is suffering. It won't cure anything, but will help heal a broken body.
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posted
I'm glad I found this discussion today. I tend to only visit the site when I'm feeling more in need, sorry to say, and I'm glad for all of you who contribute your experiences to help address the issues that get raised, even if by those of us who seldom visit.
I am about to travel East to visit a doctor near Philadelphia who I have heard mixed reports about. One local advocacy group said he's switching more to anti-fungal approaches to the disease, and they've gotten calls that it's not been successful. On the other hand, I've heard of some individuals who are feeling very good about their treatment. I spoke with this doctor directly, finally, who explained his approach and the rationale. He says he's using "anti-microbials" (but I heard from others "anti-fungal) - and will prescribe antibiotics still along with them- but he says he's seen more consistent, long term improvement with what he's now prescribing- flucanazol, I believe. He said it seems to keep a broad array of bacteria at bay, saying there are so many different tick borne bacteria that we're dealing with, and the tests are so unreliable, that it's nearly impossible to find the right mix of abx. He says he's had so many patients who've been on I.V. abx who got better and then it all came back months later, that he personally finds more success in keeping people on a maintenance dose (after an initial intensive treatment period). He and his son both have Lyme and he says this has been working for them both as well. He thinks the maintenance dose could be needed the rest of one's life, in order to prevent the re-occurance of symptoms.
Obviously, I have very mixed feelings about making this trek to see someone who's getting mixed reviews. I decided to consult with someone other than my regular lyme literate doctor after I had a sudden flare up of major neurological issues (after feeling really close to normal for a month) and my doctor refused to change my course of oral abx (I've been on Biaxin and Minicycline since March and Amoxicillin - prescribed by my local non-Lyme literate doc- seven months prior to that). Ive been asking my LLD for I.V. rocephin, but he's not been willing. I'm afriad, too, that my insurance company will not cover the I.V. abx anyway, and I have no financial resources to go that route with it.
So I don't know for sure now what to do, but since I have this appointment - the only one I could see anytime soon and in a place where I have some friendly connections- I'm going ahead with it.
If you care to respond, I'd love to hear from you.
posted
I'm glad I found this discussion today. I tend to only visit the site when I'm feeling more in need, sorry to say, and I'm glad for all of you who contribute your experiences to help address the issues that get raised, even if by those of us who seldom visit.
I am about to travel East to visit a doctor near Philadelphia who I have heard mixed reports about. One local advocacy group said he's switching more to anti-fungal approaches to the disease, and they've gotten calls that it's not been successful. On the other hand, I've heard of some individuals who are feeling very good about their treatment. I spoke with this doctor directly, finally, who explained his approach and the rationale. He says he's using "anti-microbials" (but I heard from others "anti-fungal) - and will prescribe antibiotics still along with them- but he says he's seen more consistent, long term improvement with what he's now prescribing- flucanazol, I believe. He said it seems to keep a broad array of bacteria at bay, saying there are so many different tick borne bacteria that we're dealing with, and the tests are so unreliable, that it's nearly impossible to find the right mix of abx. He says he's had so many patients who've been on I.V. abx who got better and then it all came back months later, that he personally finds more success in keeping people on a maintenance dose (after an initial intensive treatment period). He and his son both have Lyme and he says this has been working for them both as well. He thinks the maintenance dose could be needed the rest of one's life, in order to prevent the re-occurance of symptoms.
Obviously, I have very mixed feelings about making this trek to see someone who's getting mixed reviews. I decided to consult with someone other than my regular lyme literate doctor after I had a sudden flare up of major neurological issues (after feeling really close to normal for a month) and my doctor refused to change my course of oral abx (I've been on Biaxin and Minicycline since March and Amoxicillin - prescribed by my local non-Lyme literate doc- seven months prior to that). Ive been asking my LLD for I.V. rocephin, but he's not been willing. I'm afriad, too, that my insurance company will not cover the I.V. abx anyway, and I have no financial resources to go that route with it.
So I don't know for sure now what to do, but since I have this appointment - the only one I could see anytime soon and in a place where I have some friendly connections- I'm going ahead with it.
If you care to respond, I'd love to hear from you.
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I was using the abx & I started getting severe stomach cramps.
My pain level was increasing to a point that was just not tolerable.
I wouldn't have minded it if I was in a hospital & under some kind of supervision.
There's no guarantees that continuing along that path would have cured me.
Some people do abx for very long periods of time & have the spirochetes return - some get better.
I'm not trying to say that I side with any particular party or advocate that people should not do long courses of abx if they choose that route.
I'm just saying that there are dangers of using abx for long periods of time.
Abx are serious drugs.
My mother had radical chemotherapy at Sloan-Kettering hospital in NY & she had alot of supervision.
How much supervision do most of us receive doing these very intense therapies?
As most of us know - Lyme is no joke.
Herbs can also be very effective & less damaging to the system.
I don't know the answer but my feeling for my own therapy is to give the Cowden herbal protocol a chance.
Maybe when or if I go back to abx, I won't have to take than as long if the herbal remedies help get rid of some of the spirochete load.
If I just got ill with Lyme, I would choose a different route but I've had Lyme untreated & misdiagnosed for over 10 years.
This may prevent more extensive damage to my immune system or yeast overgrowth.
There is new evidence that suggests yeasts & molds can cause severe damage to the body.
There is more than one way to accomplish a task.
PS - tony z - I am not a "Steerite". I wouldn't wish for people to end up in cemetaries just to prove one method is better or that what you or I think is correct. We all have the right to agree or disagree with a particular method of treatment. It's our choice to do the research & decide what is best for ourselves. Not everyone can tolerate large doses of abx. There has to be alternatives to any form of treatment for people who don't do well on that particular treatment or who just choose to try a different path.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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Peacesoul
Unregistered
posted
Sparkle7, I love your answer and I agree 101%.
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posted
Thanks, Cave76 and Sparkle, for your responses. That's a good question to ask- what tests will the doctor give to determine that I HAVE a high fungus overload? I have been taking Nystatin for the last few weeks already, based on a test for candida that apparently showed mildly positive.
I do wonder if anyone has some thoughts about my experience with the abx... A year and a half ago found the gorged tick in me, knew immediately that it might transmit Lyme because I had been in an area where ticks are reportedly 95% infected with it, didn't know to get prophylatic abx, 3 days later the symptoms broke out, took 10 days to get abx here in Cincinnati, convinced doc to give me one month of Doxy, symptoms all went away, in 10 days all came back, worse. Took high dose of amoxicyllin for 7 months, then Clarithromyacin for 6 months, then added Minicycline to that for 6 more months. For the most part, I was functioning at a normal rate, with days now and then of increased fatigue and aching. Had an herbalist to work with through the first year- an expert in Lyme. She changed my regimen periodically, but then moved, had family crises, and has zilch time for any clients now. So I haven't changed herbs in months. I attributed the herbs to my managing to work the first year with few sick days.
All seemed hopeful till this sudden flare up of neurological symptoms three weeks ago (hands dropping things, off balance, slow speech and thought processing, inability to plan or decide, etc.) Also have had two vitreous detachments in the last 2 months, resulting in major obstruction of vision in both eyes.
My LLD, as stated earlier, will not change my oral abx or prescribe I.V. He got very angry when I first brought up the subject. He increased my Vitamin C dosage from 16,000 mg. a day to 24,000 mg. a day (right before I had any advanced CNS symptoms except some tingling in feet). He stated that he's got me on the best and safest abx he can give me now. I've heard from some of you (when the vision problems came up) that I.V. Rocephin helped tremendously. He doesn't seem eager to do that. I realize how much these doctors are under attack for merely doing what they see best to do, and that they need to be concerned.
Perhaps this is off topic for this discussion; if so, I apologize. Obviously, I feel at a big crossroads here, now and do struggle with isolation a lot. I read the IDSA guidelines for the first time last night via the CDC site, and saw that Flucanazol is specifically listed as one of the drugs they say has no beneficial effect. I know that the philosophy is very suspect, but I did find it interesting to read the basis of their views overall (and, of course, somewhat confusing.)
Thanks to all who wade through this long message! Friend PAM Posts: 40 | From Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2006
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
Pam in Cincy, I was only given 6 wks of IV rocephin. My Intern doc didn't have a positive Western Blot on me. In fact he had two negatives from Lab Corp in '99.
His original script was for 4 weeks. Insurance okay that. At the end of 4 weeks, I'd had no improvement. He extended the IV for 2 more weeks. Insurance okay it.
In those two additional weeks I got one good day. Now some people will say that 6 weeks of IV were not going to touch it after 2 1/2 yrs of oral failing. Maybe months more would of, maybe not. I would put my money on the not.
Two weeks later I went to LLMD, first visit, 8 hr drive away. Over night stay and another 8 hrs drive home after morning appt. My Igenex lyme Western Blot was very strong IgM positive.
IgG was all -'s, Dr C said well, they messed that test up. No need to redo IgM to highly positive for antibodies.
When I took these results to my doc Internists who had put his name on the line in Louisville, Ky treating me for months and months and then IV abx, he was one very thankful doc. He wouldn't have to worry that the powers that be would come in and question his diagnosis of me.
After all we don't have lyme & company in KY. I'm sure you don't in Cincy either. lol
I confess, I do have an agenda as Cave76 stated in her post. My agenda is to let people know that you can NOT just take abx for lyme & company and always get a cure or remission. Even in early stages & treatment.
Some people are very fortunate. This board is full of early, acute and chronic ill folks, who have been there done that. Abx failed them.
There are plently of hocus pocus claims out there to treat lyme & company in 30 days. But nutrition, supps, herbs, rife, lymph drainage, chiro work, diet, medication, vitamins, minerals etc etc. can and will help if you find the pieces of YOUR puzzle.
Pam in The Ville
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
sparkle, you're not alone. i agree with you 100 percent.
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I don't know if I'd stick with a doctor who gets angry if you request a different type of treatment (?)...
My doctor told me from the get go that IV abx are not always going to make people well & he never prescribed them for me. I had Lyme undiagnosed & untreated for 10 years with a negative ELISSA & Western Blot...
So, it's not always that more & larger doses will make people better.
***Another thing to be cautious about!
I haven't done alot of research on this but I was talking to another Lymie on the phone & they told me that some people can have bad reactions to vit. C. It can present with neurological type symptoms.
I heard a radio interview on NPR with someone from the Linus Pauling Institute (the guy who discovered vit. C) & he said that there is no conclusive proof that large doses of vit. C will make people healthy!
Contrary to what many of us believe!!!
There is very little research on how large doses of vitamins will effect us in the long run. We are all just experimenting on ourselves with this type of treatment.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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