savebabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9847
posted
Hello everyone,
I have been going through treatment for some time now, and I still can't get rid of these headaches.
My headahces are constant and have become very disabling. I treat them with excedrin migraine and when the pain gets really bad I break out the darvocet.
My question is, who had headaches this bad and what did you take to get rid of them?
disturbedme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12346
posted
What co-infections do you have? I had terrible, terrible headaches and I think it was caused by my Bart, since being on Bart treatment they have been considerably better and less frequent.
-------------------- One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar. ~ Helen Keller
My Lyme Story Posts: 2965 | From Land of Confusion (bitten in KS, moved to PA, now living in MD) | Registered: Jun 2007
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savebabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9847
posted
I have been diagnosed with babs, lyme and bart. So far I have done 2 years of babs treatment, and years of lyme. It was only recently I completed one month of bart treatment.
How long on bart meds did it take until you noticed a difference in head pain?
djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
ive got the same thing
head pain all the time, different in severity.
do some searches, there are tons of threads on it.
until we figure out the cause, sx tx is really all i can do..
some things that help ME (and we could be entirely different
-nattokinase (thins blood, allows more flow to you brain) -quercetin (decreases inflamtion dramaitally, but if bart is an issue its a contraindacation -wobenzym- systemic enzyyme helped w some of the pain. -magnesium- again, contraindacation w bart, but sometimes needed -green tea extract- good anti oxidant -zyflamed- good anti inflam by new chapter -cordyceps- another good immune booster by new chapter -vits b 1-12 -naps -tying a bandana or scarf around your head, it helps relieve pressure if you have it -oral glutathione (nutri west is a great brand, it comes w needed nutrients to better asorb) -ALA (alpha lapoic acid) chelator, good for metals and detox -FIR Sauna -Hbot -rife -abx etc -pain meds (percoset, morphine, etc, most times when its bad they dont touch it) this makes me suspect increased csf pressure or inflamation of the brain...NO one knows! hopefully i will know soon w spect scan
on and on it goes...where will it end?
treated babs 2 months w mepron and zith
treated lyme 6 months iv doxy and roc and many oral.
did hbot
just finished 3 months levaquin. these 3 months i have made the most improvement.
the key also may be the herb artemenisin (sp) which i just ordered a book about. it packs a punch for a lot of tbd related problems it seems.
time will tell
good luck. please let me know if/when you find relief
derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
Carol in PA
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5338
posted
I started using Wobenzym when I found out that it could reduce inflammation and hypercoagulation.
Within about ten days or so, I noticed that the headache started to let up. I upped my morning dose, and I no longer wake up every day with a splitting headache.
I still have headaches, but they are not as severe, and are more easily treated with Excedrin.
There is a company working on a device to treat migraine with magnetic therapy. It's a short burst of high power magnetism.
Don't forget to take good quality magnesium supplements, as this will reduce headaches also.
Carol
Posts: 6956 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Why is quercitin contraindicated with Bart? I am treating bart, and told to take it.
Posts: 561 | From eastcoast | Registered: Aug 2006
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
well, its quite a lengthly response, and speaks of many things, but the quercetin is covered.
sorry for the long thread. i am nearly sure someone else posted this on LN before, i got it from one of the boards...
cheers
Interactions between prescription or over the counter drugs and nutritional supplements are common and often not well known. In creating the Drug-Nutrient Workshop (www.NutritionWorkshop.com), a professional database of interactions between drugs and dietary supplements, nutrients, and food or food components, I found that over 400 drugs commonly used in the U.S. deplete specific nutrients and almost 500 drugs have their efficacy or side effects influenced by various foods. I also identified about a thousand adverse interactions between drugs and dietary supplements and several hundred beneficial interactions, in which specific dietary supplements may enhance the efficacy or decrease the side effects of specific drugs.
People with Lyme and related diseases are usually administered prolonged therapy with antibiotics, often combined with Prilosec or other proton pump inhibitors (drugs that greatly reduce stomach acid), sometimes in conjunction with Plaquenyl (an immune modulator) or anti-parasitic drugs for treatment of babesiosis. Some potential interactions (negative and positive) between these drugs and dietary supplements are described below. Information on drug/food interactions is usually available from the pharmacist and included in the patient-package insert. This should be checked for each individual drug being taken, because the dosage form (sustained-release vs. regular, for example) may influence the effect of food on drug absorption. Patients with chronic tick-borne infections may also be taking antidepressants and pain relievers, each of which may have its own interactions with nutritional supplements and nutritional status.
Drugs may interact with food or supplements through the following mechanisms:
(1) The food or supplements may interfere with drug absorption. This is especially important for tetracycline or quinolone antibiotics. {Although quinolones like Levaquin are not used for Lyme disease, they are the primary drugs for treatment of bartonellosis, a common co-infection). Both groups of antibiotics form insoluble complexes with minerals, especially calcium, magnesium or iron. This process, called chelation, inhibits absorption of both the antibiotic and the mineral. Not only are most tetracyclines (with the sole exception of doxycycline) and all quinolones better absorbed away from food (especially mineral-rich foods like meat and dairy products), they must be taken several hours apart from any nutritional supplements containing minerals. Two hours of separation may not be enough. Several herbs, including fennel, dandelion, and Sanguisorba, have a high enough mineral content that their consumption has been shown to interfere with quinolone absorption.
Penicillins may have their oral absorption impaired by fiber or by food, although this is more likely for penicillin V and ampicillin that for amoxacillin. Food causes the drug to be retained in the stomach, where the presence of acid causes the drug to decompose. Psyllium has been shown to bind oral penicillin, decreasing its absorption.
(2) The drug may increase the requirement for certain nutrients, because it causes depletion of the nutrient from the body. The normal gastrointestinal bacterial flora synthesize B vitamins, biotin and vitamin K, which are absorbed and utilized by humans. Depletion of these bacteria by prolonged antibiotic therapy may produce vitamin deficits. Bleeding caused by vitamin K deficiency has occurred as a result of intravenous therapy with cephalosporin antibiotics[1], a group that includes Rocephin and Claforan. High dose penicillin therapy causes increased excretion of potassium by the kidneys[2]. When combined with antibiotic-induced diarrhea or poor appetite, this effect may cause potassium deficiency, with fatigue and muscle weakness as primary symptoms. Proton pump inhibitors like Prilosec, used to enhance antibiotic absorption and cellular penetration, decrease formation of stomach acid, permitting overgrowth of bacteria and/or yeast in the stomach and upper gastrointestinal tract. Microbial overgrowth may be associated with gastrointestinal symptoms like diarrhea and bloating[3] and may cause malabsorption of nutrients. Prolonged use of PPIs has been associated with decreased absorption of vitamin B12, zinc, and carotene and may create a need for supplementation[4].
(3) Drugs, supplements and food may interact by inhibition or stimulation of enzymes involved in drug transport or metabolism.
The cytochrome P450 (CYP) system is extensively involved in drug metabolism and may be strongly inhibited or stimulated by drugs, foods or dietary supplements. CYP enzymes are most active in the liver, intestines, lungs and kidneys. Humans have over 20 different CYP enzymes, all of which contain iron and which all use oxygen to change the structure and function of the drugs they metabolize. The most important CYP's for drug metabolism are designated CYP1A2, CYP2C9, CYP2C19, CYP2D6, CYP2E1 and CYP3A4. This classification system is not based upon biological function but upon similarity of amino acid sequences in the structure of the enzyme. CYP oxidation of drugs may produce metabolites that are less active or more active than the parent compound. The exact effect of inhibiting or stimulating any CYP enzyme will therefore depend upon the specific clinical circumstances and cannot necessarily be predicted from experiments done in a test tube.
Another important aspect of drug metabolism is transport into and out of cells. Some drugs are ejected from cells by a transport system referred to as P-glycoprotein (P-gp). In the intestine, P-gp limits the absorption of a variety of unrelated drugs, many of which are also metabolized by the intestinal form of CYP3A4. Inhibition of P-gp and/or CYP3A4 by grapefruit juice or other natural substances can increase absorption of drugs that are P-gp or CYP3A4 substrates, raising their concentration in blood. This effect is only important for drugs that are slowly absorbed in the intestine to begin with. Drugs that pass through the intestinal lining rapidly are absorbed too quickly for inhibition of CYP or P-gp enzymes in the intestine to affect drugs levels. St. John's wort is one of the few products that stimulate intestinal P-gp and CYP3A4. Taking St. John's wort can decrease the plasma concentration of those same drugs and underlies many of the adverse drug interactions reported for this herb.
Some important interaction of drugs used in treating tick-borne diseases and the CYP system are listed below:
CYP2C9 is increased by rifampin (an antibiotic sometimes used to treat Bartonella) and inhibited by fluconazole (Diflucan, an anti-fungal).
CYP2C19 is increased by rifampin and artemisin (a derivative of the herb Artemisia annua, a natural anti-malarial herb that may be used in the treatment of Babesiosis). CYP2C19 is decreased by Prilosec and ketoconazole (Nizoral, an anti-fungal).
CYP3A4 is increased by St. John's wort and rifampin and inhibited by grapefruit juice, Seville orange juice, the anti-fungal drugs ketoconazole (Nizoral) and itraconazole (Sporanox), and the macrolide antibiotics azithromycin (Zithromax), clarithromycin (Biaxin) and telithromycin (Ketek). The effect of grapefruit juice occurs only in the intestines, not in the liver, so it can--at high levels of consumption--increase absorption of some drugs without affecting their internal metabolism. Artemisinin is metabolized by intestinal CYP3A4, and its absorption appears to be enhanced by grapefruit juice[5]. The herb Echinacea, used for immune stimulation, inhibits intestinal CYP3A4 but stimulates the liver's CYP3A4, so it may increase or decrease the levels of a co-administered drug, depending upon the drug's rate of absorption and the extent to which it is metabolized by CYP3A4.
Milk thistle, an herb used to support liver function, contains a group of bioflavonoids called silymarin. Silymarin may inhibit intestinal P-gp and liver CYP3A4. Surprisingly, concomitant administration of milk thistle significantly decreased the absorption of metronidazole (a drug used to treat the spore form of Borrelia).[6] This interaction could not have been predicted from knowledge of the herb's effects on drug metabolizing enzymes. Moreover, vitamin C (500 mg/day) and vitamin E (400 units/day) decreased the effectiveness of metronidazole in treating H. pylori infection of the stomach.[7] The mechanism of this interaction is unknown but suggests that anti-oxidants should not be used with metronidazole therapy.
Quercetin, a bioflavonoid used as an anti-oxidant and for relief of allergic symptoms, competes with quinolone antibiotics for binding sites on bacteria. No interaction between quercetin and antibiotics has yet been demonstrated outside a test tube, but it would be prudent for people taking quinolone antibiotics to refrain from the use of quercetin and perhaps other bioflavonoids.
Beneficial effects of dietary supplements for people taking antibiotics have been described. The most consistent benefits have been demonstrated for probiotics (living organisms) that can counter the gastrointestinal side effects of antibiotics. The best studied are Saccharomyces boulardii (a yeast, dubbed "yeast against yeast" in France)[8], Lactobacillus rhamnosis GG[9], Lactobacillus plantarum and Lactobacillus sporogenes[10].
Proteases are enzymes that digest protein. When taken by mouth on an empty stomach some of the preparation is absorbed intact and may be active in the body. Oral proteases have been shown to relieve pain and inflammation in patients with arthritis[11], may break down circulating complexes of antigen and antibody (these have been described in so-called "post-Lyme syndrome") and may breakdown blood clots that form as a result of inflammation. Although research on proteases as adjuncts to antibiotic therapy is minimal, a study done in animals found that bromelain (a protease-containing extract of pineapple stem), increased penetration of tetracyclines into the tissues[12].
[1] Alitalo et al. Hypoprothrombinaemia and bleeding during administration of cefamandole and cefoperazone. Ann Clin res 1985; 17: 116-9. Shimada et al. Bleeding secondary to vitamin K deficiency in patients receiving parenteral cephem antibiotics. J Antimicob Chemother 1984; 14 (Suppl B): 325-330
[2] Gill et al, Hypokalemic metabolic alkalosis induced by high-dose ampicillin sodium. Am J Hosp Pharm 1977; 34: 528-31
[3] Lewis et al, Altered bowel function and duodenal bacterial overgrowth in patients treated with omeprazole. Alimentary Pharmacol Ther 1996; 10: 557-61.
[4] Bradford & Taylor, Omeprazole and vitamin B12 deficiency. Ann Pharmacother 1999; 33: 641-43. Bellou et al, Cobalamin deficiency with megaloblastic anemia in one patient under long-term omeprazole therapy. J Intern Med 1996; 240: 161-4. Marcuard et al, Omeprazole therapy causes malabsorption of cyanocobalamin. Ann Int med 1994; 120: 211-15. Tang et al, Gastric acidity influences the blood response to a beta-carotene dose in humans. Am J Clin Nutr 1996; 64: 622-26.
[5] van Agtmael et al, Grapefruit juice increases bioavailability the bioavailability of artemether. Eur J Clin Pharmacol 1999; 55: 405-410.
[6] Rajnarayana et al, Study on the influence of silymarin pretreatment on metabolism and disposition of metronidazole. Arzneimittelforschung 2004; 54: 109-13.
[7] Chuang et al, Vitamin C and E supplements to lansoprazole-amoxacillin-metronidazole triple therapy may reduce the eradication rate of metronidazole-sensitive Helicobacter pylori infection. Helicobacter 2002; 7: 310-16.
[8] Surawicz et al, Prevention of antibiotic-associated diarrhea by Saccharomyces boulardii: A prospective study. Gastroenterol 1989; 96: 981-88
[9] Vanderhoof et al, Lactobacillus GG in the prevention of antibiotic-associated diarrhea in children. J Pediatr 1999; 135: 564-48. Armuzzi et al, The effect of oral administration of Lactobacillus GG on antibiotic-associated gastrointestinal side effects during helicobacter pylori eradication therapy. Aliment Pharmacol Ther 2001; 15: 163-69.
[10] LaRosa et al, Prevention of antibiotic-associated diarrhea with Lactobacillus sporogens and fructo-oligosaccharides in children. A multicentre double-blind vs placebo study. Minerva Pediatr 2003; 55: 447-52.
[11] Leipner et al, Therapy with proteolytic enzymes in rheumatic disorders. BioDrugs. 2001;15(12):779-89.
[12] Luerti & Vignali, Influence of bromelain on penetration of antibiotics in uterus, salpinx and ovary. Drugs Exp Clin Res 1978, 4: 45-48.
From DRUG-SUPPLEMENT INTERACTIONS IN LYME DISEASE
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
I had an unremitting meningitis-type headache all throughout
the summer (you sent me a pm related to it when I started
experiencing it.)
Surprisingly, I just started experiencing the pain a lot less
frequently around the time I went off to college in
September (well before I started any treatment). I now
experience this sort of pain very rareIy. I do occasionally
get some pain around these two blood vessels the run to my
eyes, which I think must be from bart, but usually only happens
in the evening.
The only drug I was on when I had this pain was clomipramine
(Anafranil),
which, although it helped my neuro symptoms, probably did
this by mediating the immune response or something. Yeah--
its immunosuppresive properties scare me.
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I was having bad migraines about 2 or 3 times a month.
I think it was due to hormonal issues.
When I started using bio-identical hormone replacement therapy, it really helped alot.
Lyme can effect the hormones...
Some people think a small cup of espresso or coffee (no sugar or milk but I can't drink it that way) helps. It's probably the caffeine.
Sometimes I get headaches when the air pressure changes, too.
Thanks for the info djf! I'll have to read it more carefully when I'm more awake.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I didn't get many but the ones I got were insane. Mine were Babs and did stop with 7 months of Mepron.
Nothing took them away when I was having one. Narcotics, over the counter, prescription, whatever. Mine felt like brain stem fire. If I took the meds I had and was perfectly still in a quiet room I could survive. Any movement would make me want to scream.
Thankfully I only had a few and thankfully the Mepron got rid of them completely.
-------------------- Lucy Posts: 342 | From Hawaii | Registered: Nov 2005
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Aniek
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5374
posted
My headaches turned out to be from an allergy to soy. Have you tried an elimination diet to see if they are food triggered?
If your body is stressed from Lyme, it might be overreacting to an allergy or sensitivity. Many people find migraines are triggered by foods. Mine were not migraines, but they would last 24 hours and keep me up.
-------------------- "When there is pain, there are no words." - Toni Morrison Posts: 4711 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Mar 2004
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clairenotes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10392
posted
My headaches are almost always related to viral issues, those in the HHV family. They go away with anti-viral treatment and their frequency has lessoned over time.
There may be a connection to fungal issues also, in my case, but still in the early stages of exploring this.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
my HA is caused by some pain in my head.
i WISH i knew why
im exploring all the above options, thanks adamm.
mine also is not as bad as it was.
when i do artemenisin, it comes roaring back, which speaks to the power of the herb and the fact that i probably have babs.
im also open to some diflucan pulses to see if that helps.
thanks everyone, and here to no more HAs!
cheers
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
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