Aniek
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
I take 900mg, plus there is magnesium in my multi.
-------------------- "When there is pain, there are no words." - Toni Morrison Posts: 4711 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Mar 2004
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klutzo
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posted
I take 800 mgs. of Mg citrate, divided into four doses, and eat a high Mg diet.
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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pamoisondelune
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posted
I take 140 mg or 210 mg 3 times a day to balance calcium pills; Magnesium malate. I wouldn't be able to take higher doses. They say to take it to gut tolerance. Higher doses are rejected by my gut; it would be impossible to overdose.
Posts: 1226 | From USA | Registered: May 2007
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posted
It's true doggieluvr, at least my experience tells me that it is. No mag for me for over a year now....No twitching or other problems from it either. Just make sure that you are on a good protocol for Bart if you go cold turkey. I don't think that it helps to just cut back because even a 50 mg dose a day will keep the biofilms going that protect them. It takes about 2 months of no mag just to break down the biofilms.
Here's part of an article about it:
Breaking the biofilm barrier: Will it help us conquer infectious disease?
"From Contemporary Urology, September 2001 Bacteria are ubiquitous in our environment. The vast majority of bacteria do not live in a free-swimming planktonic form, but rather in the self-produced, protective environment of a biofilm, which seems to explain why some infections are nearly impossible to eradicate. Spend a weekend unclogging bathroom pipes or slipping on the rocks in a mountain stream and you will understand some of the other ways biofilms affect us.
The concept of biofilms is relatively new -William Costeiton coined the term in 1978. His early studies demonstrated the protective mechanisms of biofilms in providing an environment for bacteria away from white cells, antibacterials, and environmental stresses. His microscopic examination of biofilms identified bacterial colonies interwoven with a polysaccharide matrix -a previously unappreciated fact. Small channels in the biofilm matrix permit the flow of oxygen, nutrients, and waste necessary to maintain microbial activity and reproduction.
While we have effective antibiotics to kill planktonic bacteria, the reservoir of bacteria contained in biofilms does not respond well to current antibiotics because of the protective nature of these structures. The large clusters of bacteria that make up a biofilm are similar to chemotherapy-resistant malignant cells, in that organisms in the clusters' center are protected from antibacterial invasion by a "wall" of fellow bacteria.
Additional research has pointed to biofilm as producing a slower bacterial metabolism, antibiotic-degrading enzymes, and even the ability to "pump" antibacterial agents out of the biofilm before they can have any effect on the bacteria. Indeed, bacteria in a biofilm environment can be up to 1,000 times more resistant to antibiotics than the same bacteria circulating in a planktonic state.*
Uropathogens and other bacteria produce biofilms unique to their species. In the lung, for example, Pveudomonas aeruginosa use their flagella to attach to each other and to the organ surface, thereby initiating colony formation. Staphylococcus, a major biofilm-forming organism (see the photo), produces infections in wounds and on prosthetic devices such as penile prostheses and artificial urinary sphincters, and may also be involved in the initiation of catheter-borne infections. Each year, biofilm-related infections on catheters, prosthetic devices, urinary catheters and tubes, and contact lenses cost the medical industry billions of dollars.
The Centers For Disease Control estimate that more than 65% of hospital-acquired infections have biofilms as an integral part of their morbidity and potential mortality. Prosthetic implant infections are an excellent ease in point. Even when antibiotic agents are used in high doses and are in direct contact with the prosthetic device, these difficult, high-morbidity infections are rarely eradicated, necessitating removal of the device and its accompanying bacteria-filled biofilm."
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posted
400 mg a day
Posts: 370 | From NJ | Registered: Dec 2007
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jamescase20
Unregistered
posted
This book by Brian Roynen says that if you take magnesium oxcide will provide oxygen singlets in each mag ion and assit in killing via more oyx in the blood. While not every absorbable form I take about a teaspoon of the powder daily. Which is about 1000mg.
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Amoxicillin 500mg 2 a day Metronidazole 500 mg 1 a day Doxycycline 100 mg 4 a day Frolic Acid 1 mg 1 a day
Posts: 108 | From maryland | Registered: Sep 2007
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David95928
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3521
posted
2cc injection once a week. I add 1 ml. of 1% Lidocaine which makes them perfecly tolerable. Dave
-------------------- Dave Posts: 2034 | From CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
Zero and never did BUT I think it's a great idea because I've seen it substantially help people!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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kelmo
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Member # 8797
posted
No supplementation.
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Micul - that is very interesting about the biofilms and the magnesium.
The likes of this type of info is what I have heard, but BIOFILMS now too!!!???? eek. Nasty relentless crafty and inpenetrable slime balls in my body???
My PA once told me to increase the mag dose up to point of stool tolerance. I said -"Oh, uh, but doesn't it feed the bacteria?" She said yes.
I scratched my head and wasn't too comfortable with that answer...
She said that by feeding the bacteria and keeping them active we could go in for the kill. Makes some sense as many bacteria must be killed while actually in the reproductive stage, and or while not in cystic stage etc. In fact they theorize that starvation is what causes C. dif in many patients to go into its dormant / spore and abx resistant state - they say that why it gets worse in patients who are starving themselves.
My doc recommending high mag made me a little nervous but I went with it.
SO: I think the questions I need to get answers to are -
1) How does the mag help them to create biofilms?? Do we have evidence of that somewhere??!
2) Is Bart the only one among the Lyme and co-infections that makes biofilms?? Or does it happen with all of them?
3) Mag seems to feed the bart, babs and borrelia... which else?
4) I know IRON feeds most infections - which of the tick-borne ones does it feed, if any? No way would I ever supplement that, so I don't know why I would think of mag any differently. Nasty stuff almost killed me.
SO, Micul - these are the points that I have heard thrown around from many different angles by this point - enough to make me question mag supplementation.
In fact, could that be at the root of why, when we are treating for babs, for example, that our bart gets active? In the past, before this higher mag supplementation, this did not happen to me. But now it does. Just a thought.
Until I have the answers, I think I am going to shoot for a very low range - like maybe 1 mag tab sr (86 mgs.) so that I am not soooo depleted in it that I go into a tetanic (word?) state. I know that you have heard not to supplement at all, but right now, this is what feels best for me, given the info I have.
In fact, if I stop posting, you will know that my muscles are frozen solid at my keyboard and my hand will be in the type position.
I plan on getting more info from one of the docs who is behind this mag stuff - my friend's doc will be speaking with that doc, you know the story.
[ 26. January 2008, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: luvdogs ]
Posts: 589 | From Rhode Island | Registered: Jun 2006
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
so what is reccomended then?
its all one big contradiction
make me crazy
anyone just supp w mag until their firey muscle pain goes away?
i was of the thinking of trying to keep mag intake as low as possible as the possible interaction w biofilms, etc, but this pain is unreal. like someone is burning my muscles. neuropathy?
the only thing i know that helps is magnesium?
and THAT makes them all stronger
woo hoo!
cheers
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
That's the thing - I don't think we really have the complete answers yet. But I think that Micul has brought up a very good point and that we should consider it seriously. I have heard it from others too, and at this point it is enough to warrant giving it some serious thought (at least for me).
It is so hard to find the answers to these questions but I think that more understanding is on the horizon.
My inclination for myself is really to stop supplementing magnesium at all at this point, only because I have had horrific experiences with other supps that knowing strengthen the bugs.
But I am sure that many will disagree with me.
They say that as we kill the bugs, the minerals are released back into the body, so maybe if we can kill them our mag supplies will be restored. And maybe if we keep supplementing, we cannot kill them.
A real catch 22 in many ways, but I think it is good food for thought for us, and we should all try and gather as much info as possible so that we can make an educated decision regarding what to do in situations like this.
I know that some people are going to come on and say that magnesium is the end-all, be-all to tackling lyme and family, and maybe they are right. But maybe they are not.
I am just as confused as you are at this point!
Posts: 589 | From Rhode Island | Registered: Jun 2006
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
i wish we knew more about bartonella.
that would help a lot. ALOT.
theres hardly any books on lyme, even less on babesia, and none that i know of on bartonella.
i just got all the books on babesia i could find, and i already have most of the lyme ones...
we need funding, bottom line. we dont have tests, we dont know what we are dealing with, and, we dont know how to treat it.
its sickening. sorry to be negative nelly im just in so much pain today guys, forgive me.
it all seems so senseless on days like this
SO, who knows anything more about mag and bart, etc?
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
quote: my friend's doc will be speaking with that doc, you know the story.
Yeah, I know the story, "My LLMD is one of the top docs in the country and he can beat up your doc!" I don't pretend to have all the answers....I just know that it worked. There isn't any statistical evidence at this point that I have seen that would give a clear answer, other than the info that I have posted a few times before about biofilms in general, but there is some very convincing anecdotal evidence, and that's what led me to try it.
I'm quite sure that even if I could produce mountains of factual evidence showing that mag feeds Bart and biofilm production that people would still not believe it. They like their supps because they know that they help them to feel better. Mag and other supps do help people to feel better...I make no argument refuting that.
Don't you ever wonder why you need so much mag? You didn't need it before you got lyme & Co. Where does it all go? Why can't we get enough mag from our food to meet our needs? Why do Lymies like David have to continue to supplement with mag and use full dose protocols to keep the twitching down even after years of feeling great?
I think that it's because there are still colonies of bacteria protected by biofilms that are always there supplying replacements. So these people are stuck in a never ending cycle of drugs and supps. It's a win/loose situation. You feel better, but you never totally get rid of the infections. That's why people keep going back and forth between infection protocols. So beware, because the hiding bacteria are always mutating and developing more resistance as time goes on.
I think that the answer is pretty clear, that Dr F in AZ has figured out at least one of the stumbling blocks to getting well....I mean completely well. These problems are tied in together - Biofilms and Hypercoagulation. These conditions protect the bacteria from abx, and allow them to build resistance by transferring/sharing genetic material.
Anyone thinking of attempting to test this theory should consider the following: 1. Just like starting an abx protocol, things will get worse before getting better. 2. This is not an overnight process. It takes about 2 months for the biofilms to start breaking down after discontinuing mag supps. 3. It could be very hard in the beginning for those that supplement yet still have major mag deficiency Sx's. 4. You will need to be on an effective Bart protocol at the same time. 5. And of course, I am not a Dr...all of the above is my opinion. I'm not telling anyone that they should do....this is between you and your Dr.
Candida Biofilms C. A. Kumamoto, P. Zucchi, I. Bruzual; Tufts University,Boston, MA
Contact-dependent behaviors, such as biofilm formation and invasive growth, make important ntributions to the lifestyle of the opportunistic pathogen Candida albicans. Biofilms formed on medical devices such as catheters cause infections with high mortality; surface attached growth in the oral cavity of a host, i.e. the infection known as thrush, can also be thought of as a biofilm.
Invasive growth, in which C. albicans invades the tissues of its host, is commonly seen during candidiasis. Thus, responses of the organism to contact are important for the pathogenesis of many forms of candidiasis. As in other microorganisms, biofilm formation by C. albicans is associated with the development of high resistance to antimicrobial drugs.
Bacterial biofilms : standards for clinical diagnostics . Are we there yet ? P. Stoodley1,2, S. Kathju1,2, L. Nistico1, L. Hall-Stoodley1,2, A. Gieseke2, J.M. Coticchia3, M. Baratz1, J.E. Kerschner4, Y. Liu1, J.C. Post1,2, G.D. Ehrlich1,2, 1 Center for Genomic Sciences, Allegheny- Singer Research Institute, Allegheny General Hospital, Pittsburgh, PA, 2 Department of Microbiology and Immunology, Drexel University College of Medicine, 3 Max-Planck Institute for Marine Microbiology, Bremen, Germany, 4 Wayne State University, Detroit, Michigan, 5 Medical College Of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, WI
Biofilm formation is an ancient and integral strategy for bacterial survival. Bacteria have multiple strategies for surface attachment, ranging from highly specific receptors to particular mammalian components to the nonspecific, general, stickiness of extracellular polymeric slime (EPS) matrix. Through non-specific binding, biofilms can grow on virtually all materials, even the most recently fabricated and novel of man made materials.
Biofilm formation protects bacteria from environmental stresses (low pH, low iron), antibiotics, and the immune system, and is increasingly recognized as an important virulence factor in a variety of chronic infections. The ``biofilm paradigm of infectious disease'' can explain infections that are:
1) persistent punctuated with multiple acute phases, 2) non-responsiveness to antibiotic treatment, and, 3) culture negative with accompanying inflammation. Although research articles routinely discuss biofilms as being the causative agent of a particular type of infection, evidence is largely based on anecdotal evidence or in vitro experiments, rather than on direct visualization of biofilms in infected tissue.
We have previously used a combination of confocal microscopy (fluorescent in situ hybridization (FISH) and immunostaining) along with PCR and live/dead differential staining of unfixed tissue to provide convincing evidence for a biofilm etiology in otitis media. We have subsequently used this approach to provide direct evidence of biofilms in an infected elbow arthroplasty, surgical meshes and sutures, and adenoids.
The detection of biofilms on clinical material is particularly challenging. The spatial context of clinical material (tissue and/or foreign body) is often difficult to determine after the trauma associated with surgical removal. In general biofilms tended to be highly localized and often, exhaustive examination was required for detection in clinical specimens. Biofilms consisting of S. aureus were consistently identified with both sutures and meshes, as well as associated fibrous scar tissue.
In some cases FISH, live/dead morphology, and culturing corroborated to demonstrate polymicrobial biofilms. In the case of the total elbow arthroplasty, methicillin- resistant S. aureus (MRSA) was detected, which had previously eluded detection despite intra-operative cultures on four different occasions. Evidence of biofilm formation was found in all cases of deep tissue infection with resolution only upon diligent debridement and removal of the residual foreign body material.
In addition to developing methodologies for the direct detection of clinical biofilms associated with infection in individual cases, we hope to extend our observations to develop a standard set of biofilm diagnostics combining ``scanning histology'' with molecular-detection based techniques that will provide a solid clinical foundation for biofilm infections.
Urogenital Biofilms : Comensal vs . Pathogenic , Colonization vs . Biofilm G. Reid;Canadian Research and Development Centre for Probiotics, London, ON, CANADA
An estimated one billion cases of urinary tract infection (UTI), bacterial vaginosis (BV) and yeast vaginitis occur in women and girls each year. In each case, the ability of the organism to form biofilms appears to be an important step in pathogenesis. Unlike sexually transmitted infections, the causative organisms ascend from the rectal skin and for reasons unknown, overcome or displace the existing microbiota of the vagina which is dominated by lactobacilli, at least until menopause.
Clinical studies have shown that this process occurs within days. Infections arise in the vagina, or through further ascension into the bladder, where some chronic conditions may involve intracellular biofilms of E. coli and enterococci. Interestingly, in a portion of subjects, the biofilms appear to dissipate or be displaced, with the resultant return of the host's lactobacilli.
To study this phenomenon, and develop interventions, a series of in vitro and human studies have been undertaken. The finding of displacement of Gardnerella vaginalis from the vagina of one closely studied subject treated with an intravaginal suppository of probiotic lactobacilli, led to a series of in vitro experiments.
Biofilms in Chronic Wounds G. A. James1, R. Wolcott2, E. Swogger1, E. deLancey Pulcini1, P. Secor1, J. Sestrich1, J. W. Costerton1, P. S. Stewart1; 1Center for Biofilm Engineering, Bozeman, MT, 2Southwest Regional Wound Care Center, Lubbock, TX
Chronic wounds such as diabetic foot ulcers (DFU) pressure ulcers (PU) and venous leg ulcers (VLU) are a growing worldwide health concern. Many factors have been implicated in delayed healing of these wounds and microbial infection is a well-recognized barrier to healing. It has been speculated for several years that chronic wound infection may be a biofilm disease.
We examined specimens from human patients undergoing sharp debridement as part of standard wound care treatment and analyzed them using both microscopic and molecular methods. Results of these analyses were compared with data from standard clinical microbiology. Microscopic analyses of fixed specimens were performed using brightfield microscopy of thin sections prepared using a tissue Gram stain procedure as well as by scanning electron microscopy.
These analyses revealed large aggregates of bacteria surrounded by extracellular polymers often colonizing chronic wounds. Specimens from chronic wounds (n=50) were statistically significantly (Fishers exact test, P=0.01) more likely to harbor biofilms than acute wounds (n=20). Of the wound types examined (DFU, PU, VLU, and other) no particular type was more likely to harbor biofilm.
The bioflms were composed of predominantly Gram positive cocci, which agreed with both culture and bacterial community DNA analyses indicating the presence of Staphylococcus and Enterococcus. Colonization by large cell masses of gram negative bacteria was also observed in some specimens. DNA was extracted from fresh chronic wound samples (n=20) and bacterial 16S rRNA gene fragments were amplified by polymerase chain reaction (PCR). Denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis of the PCR products revealed many chronic wounds harbored diverse bacterial populations.
There was considerable variability in diversity among specimens of the same wound type. DFU specimens exhibited the most diversity, while VLU exhibited the least. Cloning and sequencing of the PCR products confirmed the presence of Staphylococcus and Pseudomonas which were detected by culture-based methods and also revealed the presence of other bacteria, including strictly anaerobic genera such as Clostridium, Prevotella, and Porphyromonas that were not detected by culture.
Overall, the results of this study provide evidence that chronic wounds harbor complex biofilms composed of diverse microbial communities that include strictly anaerobic bacteria.
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When I have studied biofilms in the past, they really seemed to emphasize only certain pathogens that did not seem to relate to Lyme et al.
This has really shed some light on the fact that there is a whole world of sliming going on that they/we previously were unaware of.
It certainly points to Lyme-like illnesses. And it could help explain a lot of things.
I am leaning in the anti-mag direction right now, but I fear that it will be a rocky road. This is very interesting to say the least.
Posts: 589 | From Rhode Island | Registered: Jun 2006
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adamm
Unregistered
posted
So if we don't supplement magnesium, can we prevent
biofilms from developing to such an extent that they cause
pamoisondelune
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11846
posted
A couple of thoughts:
1) Take lactoferrin pills to avoiding feeding iron to your microbes. The lactoferrin absorbs all the iron and delivers it to your own cells only. So you can take iron supplements if your hematocrit is low.
2) One reason i take Nattokinase is because it's supposed to dissolve this fibrin coating that our body builds up over the lyme bacteria. Is that the same as the biofilms that the bacteria make? Do the biofilms contain fibrin? Nattokinase is fibrinolytic.
Posts: 1226 | From USA | Registered: May 2007
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posted
"So if we don't supplement magnesium, can we prevent biofilms from developing to such an extent that they cause infection to perist?"
A lot depends on taking an effective abx combo that will destroy what is already in place. Most chronic Lymies (over a year of no meds) have a real mess of hypercoagulation that will protect established biofils.
Saunas are a necessary tool in reducing Hyper C and tearing down biofilms IMO, but the real powerhouses are using abx and an anti-hyper C protocol.
I tried Natto + Serrapeptase + Bromelain for over a year with almost no results (in high dose). I think that heparin is also necessary to get the job done.
Here's a little more info showing that mag is important in the building and maintenance of biofilms. I couldn't get the whole article because it required a subcription:
Summary
Mg2+ can potentially influence bacterial adhesion directly through effects on electrostatic interactions and indirectly by affecting physiology-dependent attachment processes. However, the effects of Mg2+ on biofilm structure are largely unknown. In this study, Pseudomonas fluorescens was used to investigate the influence of Mg2+ concentration (0, 0.1 and 1.0 mM MgCl2) on biofilm growth.
Planktonic and attached cells were enumerated (based on DAPI staining) while biofilm structures were examined via confocal laser scanning microscopy and three-dimensional structures were reconstructed. Mg2+ concentration had no influence on growth of planktonic cells but, during biofilm formation, Mg2+ increased the abundance of attached cells.
For attached cells, the influence of Mg2+ concentration changed over time, suggesting that the role of Mg2+ in bacterial attachment is complex and dynamic. Biofilm structures were heterogeneous and surface colonization and depth increased with increasing Mg2+ concentrations. Overall, for P. fluorescens, Mg2+ increased initial attachment and altered subsequent biofilm formation and structure.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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adamm
Unregistered
posted
okay, just two more questions:
1. How do you know if you have hypercoagulation, and
2. Do the other the other things we supplement (esp. CoQ10,
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
The thing that actually CAUSES twitching in Lyme is FREE CALCIUM IONS and dysregulated magnesium because of that!!!!!!!!! So the extra mag can help but to get the twitching gone w/o needing to treat just symptoms you need an abx that has good muscle penetration to actually GET the darn Bbs so they don't unbind the calcium to begin with!!!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
1. How do you know if you have hypercoagulation?
See the other thread on the board about Hyper Coag. Hemex Labs does specialized testing for this. Your Dr can run their own tests if you have someone that is familiar with Heparin Therapy.
2. Do the other things we supplement (esp. CoQ10, Omega-3) feed the bacteria as well?
I think that they do...I don't take any Q-10 or B vits, and only 50 mg of C a day 6 hrs away from meds. Omega 3's are Ok, and so are some good saturated fats like coconut oil and real butter.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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CherylSue
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13077
posted
Vitamin B's are bad now, too?
CherylSue
Posts: 1954 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by micul: 1. How do you know if you have hypercoagulation?
2. Do the other things we supplement (esp. CoQ10, Omega-3) feed the bacteria as well?
I think that they do...I don't take any Q-10 or B vits, and only 50 mg of C a day 6 hrs away from meds. Omega 3's are Ok, and so are some good saturated fats like coconut oil and real butter.
Do others feel that way about CoQ10?....just started taking it.
Ack who to believe?
dch
Posts: 136 | From Eastern, Pa | Registered: Sep 2007
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
What a load of #%*#
The bugs are sucking us dry of all our nutrition. They are thriving on our bodies, shutting off our defense mechanisms and robbing us of our much needed nutrients.
To think you can starve the bugs out by avoiding the nutrients you need to live is just silly science. You will die and the bugs will mutate to another host.
Magnesium is necessary for heart health. I am quoting from The Blaylock Wellness Report
BEGIN QUOTE:
Many studies have shown that enlarged hearts are associated with the following factors: -Low antioxident enzymes -Low magnesium levels -Low levels of critical heart-energy nutrients, such as CoQ10, L-carnitine and pyruvate.
Studies of patients with these risk factors have shown that giving them a mixture of vitamins, minerals, and metabolic stimulants can dramatically improve heart function.
END QUOTE
There are doctors and research on both sides of this fence. Commonsense says you have to have nutrients in order to stay alive. If you have bugs in you that are robbing you of your nutrients, then take in enough to feed you and them. That way your body can fight the fight along with the medicines to kill the bugs.
Duh!
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Some studies about the importance of Magnesium
Taken only from universities and National Institute of Health
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
People can die from low magesium. Just taking it does not mean it is getting into the cells. B-6 will help with that.
A lab test for intracellular magnesium can help shine some light.
Liquid, shots or IV magnesium may be needed at some times. If you do magnesium shots, alone it is terribly painful. With 1cc mag. and 1cc B-12 it is much easier.
Calcium, zinc and other minerals, too, should be in balance.
I have been told to take up to 2,000 mg of magnesium glycinate a day in divided doses - or up to bowel tolerance. That is the best way to know. As soon as stool gets loose, back off a bit.
Most days, it's about 800-1000 mg. a day for me. It helps me avoid seizures better than anything. It is also the best anti-depressant I've found. It calms the overwhelmed nervous system.
And - as you may see if you search on PubMed, magnesium is a detoxifier. This is very good.
Seriously.
We cannot starve our bodies of magesium without the result being anxiety, depression, tinnitus, muscle tremors, seizures, etc.
posted
It's been about two years now since I stopped taking all mag and calcium supps, as well as very minimal amounts of only a few select vitamins....still no twitching. If what you naysayer's claim is true about needing to supplement, then the bugs would have eaten me alive by now. So you can say that it's all a bunch of garbage and continue on the never ending cycle that most everyone here is on. That's fine....I don't really care what you do. This info is here to help. I'm not going to get into debates with anyone about this. Take it or leave it. I'm not going to argue with people that only care about getting the last word in on a thread and like to list studies on supplementation that are only general guidelines that are meant for healthy non infected individuals.
For those of you that are interested in why you are not making the progress that you should, I hope that you will be able to see the truth in what I have previously posted. The evidence is there to back it up. What was posted about the relationship between biofilms, hyper-coag, and mag supps should make sense to you if you read it all thoroughly.
I bought into the mind set on this board when I first found out that I had lyme and came to this site about how important supplementing was. I did my own Glutathione/Mag/Vit C IV pushes 3 times a week. I was taking 2 grams of IV mag every other day for over a year, as well as large daily oral mag supplementation. The result was that my abx protocols were failing after very good initial starts. Bart became resistant to Rif/Zith/Mino very quickly. All mag was taken at least 2 hrs away from meds as recommended, but it didn't make any difference.
I would not do this cold turkey if you are considering trying this......taper down a little each week to allow your body to adjust. I'm not sure what Dr F tells his patients to do because I have never been his patient. He may say to stop it all right away......I just don't know. All mag would include Epsom salt baths, and foods that are high in mag. The twitching will most likely get worse in the beginning, but it will diminish over time. I said it before in this thread that I am not a Dr. These are my experiences and opinions, and any decisions in protocol changes should be made with the help of your Dr.
Editing to add that you are in no way depriving your body of Magnesium by doing this. All you are doing is stopping the hugely overdosing of mag that is feeding biofilms. You don't require this much mag because you are sick...your body will not, and does not absorb and use it for your benefit. The overdosing is not helping, only hurting you.
You can get all the mag that you need in yor diet by eating good food. But you have to be hitting the bugs with abx or an effective herbal protocol. And then you have to start tearing down the biofilms with saunas, exercise, and heparin. I tried all the enzyme products...they didn't work.
posted
Herein lies the problem with lyme. Contradiction.
We have people who say...dont take supplements, and others that say...take supplements.
So lets scrap all the double talk and get back to the basics.
Your body need proper nutrition to survive. If you're eating all the fruits, vegetables, whole grains, lean meats, etc, etc.. you're going to get plenty of vitamins and minerals to survive...
However...when dealing with lyme, Bb, you're dealing with a bacteria which uses magnesium for growth. Its not uncommon for people with lyme to have low magnesium levels. Magnesium works in conjuction with the B vitamins. So being magnesium deficient means likely B deficient, and odds are D deficient as well.
You can't starve lyme by avoiding all magnesium, because ultimately you will also be avoiding proper B action as well.
The idea of upping the magnesium is two fold...one..is to get your proper nutrition level up for yourself, and two..is to help make the lyme more active..in order to then have abx come through an wipe it out. And by making the lyme more active, its also hoped that your bodys own immune system will begin to recognize the foreign bacteria, and become more active. So that down the road, your body can fend for itself without abx.
As for all the debates ...Vit C and salt, rife machines, different abx protocols, ..exercising it out of you... etc, etc, etc.... Please, just listen to your LLMD, and listen to your body. Only you will know if something is working or not.
Its true that you may feel worse before better, but, you should ultimately be feeling better, or whatever you're doing isnt working.
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-------------------- Corinne Posts: 529 | From Raleigh, NC | Registered: Jun 2006
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Micul,
Do not assume that everyone is doing poorly except you.
I happen to be a success story. I went from housebound to working fulltime and riding my horses.
Actually, I kept riding even when I was so sick my husband had to do everything to prepare the horse for me and I just got on from a mounting block and rode only in the arena where the horse could not run away.
Since I had been a long distance (50 mile competitions) horseback rider, this was the equivalent of asking Lance Armstrong to ride his bike only on the highschool track.
Today, I am once again training young horses.
Vitamin supplementation was/is a huge part of my success story.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
My opinion is simple: The infection will outlast the human body, if deprivation and deficiency occur. The infection will simply go dormant.
I take enough vitamins and minerals to replace what is deficient, thus getting a sufficient amount through food, and a whole-food supplement. I take no more, no less.
I do take
ALA - Detoxification and Anti-Oxidant NAC - Same Activated Charcoal - During intense Herxheimer reactions Grapefruit Seed Extract for Lyme & Candida Artemisia w Red Root (Zhang) for Babesia ALIVE multivitamin (Whole Food). 3 tablets is one serving. I use only 2.
I'm not currently taking Magnesium, but once I began using Levaquin, I will be. I believe Magnesium should be used in patients who are significantly deficient, and the dose is about 500mg to 1,000mg per day, as tolerated.
The interesting thing about Magnesium is that, based on both patient reports over the long term, as well as the scientific literature, is that there seems to be a direct relationship between the immune systems strength, the activity of the infection, and the blood and tissue levels of Magnesium.
The immune system gets much stronger, when Magnesium is used, but it seems to be in conjunction as the borrelia bacterium attempt to collect this necessary nutrient that it needs for it's lifecycle.
The combination of Magnesium, with aggressive antibiotic therapy, appears to be useful. Pulsing Magnesium, even in cases where deficiency isn't present -- may help kill the infection "faster" rather than slower, as presumed.
It is unknown whether this hypothesis has any truth to it, but rather it is a possibility.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
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