posted
Hi - is there anything in particular to know about bloodtesting for vitamin D 25 and 1,25 levels - which labs to use, how to have it done?
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
The whys (watch for ***):
``1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D3 Stimulates Expression and Translocation of Protein Kinase C (alpha) and C (delta)
via a Nongenomic Mechanism and Rapidly Induces Phosphorylation of a 33-kDa Protein in Acute Promyelocytic NB4 Cells''
IF Bb's protein kinase C *inhibitor* is PKC delta...
``Vitamin D is a steroid hormone that, in addition to its well-characterized role in calcium/phosphate metabolism, has been found to have
***regulatory properties for immune system function.***
The nuclear vitamin D receptor is widely expressed in tissues, but has also been shown to be regulated by hormones, growth factors, and cytokines. In this study we show that activation of human V(delta symbol)2V(gamma symbol)9 T cells by nonpeptidic monoalkyl phosphates such as isopentenyl pyrophosphate leads to the up-regulation of the vitamin D receptor via a pathway that involves the classical isoforms of protein kinase C.
We further show that this receptor is active by demonstrating that the ligand 1 (alpha symbol),25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 (vitD3) significantly inhibits in a dose-dependent fashion phospholigand-induced (gamma delta symbols)T cell expansion, IFN-(gamma symbol) production, and CD25 expression.
We also show that vitD3 negatively regulates signaling via Akt and ERK and, at high concentrations, potentiates Ag-induced cell death.
As such, these data provide further support for the immunoregulatory properties of vitamin D, and suggest that the ability of vitD3 to
***negatively regulate the proinflammatory activity of (gamma delta)T cells***
may contribute to the protection this vitamin affords against inflammatory and autoimmune disorders dependent upon Th1-type responses.''
posted
How much testing you do upfront depends on your overall health. Given the time of year, it would be good to get the 25 hydroxy vitamin D level (Calcidiol), because your level is probably as low as it is going to go. The 1,25 dihydroxy D level (cacitriol) isn't as important at first (though it wouldn't hurt to know it) and you may never neeed to check it at all, but that is something to determine if your level of 25 OH D comes back at a very high level, or if you supplement for a low level and have no or a negative response. The body regulates the conversion of calcidiol into calcitriol by a delicate feedback system, and that system needs to be tested initially by checking calcidiol and contextualizing to the situation and time of year...confused yet?
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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lymebytes
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posted
I tested at Labcorp came back very low. Here are the tests w/codes my doctor ran: Vitamin D, 1,25 Dihydroxy 081091 Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy 081950 (This was out of range - very low)
map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
I personally didn't spend money on a vitamin D test. I just realized that lack of sunshine in the winters here, does effect me.
I realized this long before lyme & company knocked me on my rear. I've suffered from what is called a winter sucks attitude for years and years. Cabin fever? SADD?
I had seen many studies showing that 15 minutes of sunshine a day was good for the body. Vit D3. So in the winter I take vitamine D3 & vitamin D supplementation. I take it rarely in other seasons when I'm not getting a dose of sunshine daily.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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I found the information at this website to be helpful when I was learning about Vit. D deficiency. I was tested a couple of years ago and my levels were in the tank. I was in the category for Ricketts. Doc did a 25-hydroxyvitamin D test and optimal levels are supposed to be 50 ng/mL and mine was a 7.
posted
The ideal lab to use will break the level down into cholecalciferol and ergocalciferol.
The former is preferred and can be from sunshine or supplements, the latter comes from inferior supplements (unless you've got fungus growing all over your body...)
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Marnie: As such, these data provide further support for the immunoregulatory properties of vitamin D, and suggest that the ability of vitD3 to
***negatively regulate the proinflammatory activity of (gamma delta)T cells***
may contribute to the protection this vitamin affords against inflammatory and autoimmune disorders dependent upon Th1-type responses.''
I think that nicely sums up and supports why some advocate reduction of dietary and light-exposure-related vitamin D: vit D downregulates immune system activity, and we lymies want our immune systems working at max to eradicate the infection.
Posts: 727 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2006
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tailz
Unregistered
posted
My vitamin D was low, but supplementing it made me feel sick.
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pamoisondelune
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posted
DrLuddite, Thank you very much for telling me that Vit D2 pills are poor quality, but i thought, they seem to work, so what's the difference? Doctors prescribe massive amounts of cheap, poor-quality Vit D2 to get the same results as limited amounts of fairly expensive Vit D3. The serum VitD levels go up in both cases. Is there a difference? A lot of somewhat ineffective VitD2 does the same job as a little Vit D3 , doesn't it?
Posts: 1226 | From USA | Registered: May 2007
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posted
I have found that people taking d2 initially feel better and then seem to plateau or even worsen, and when the levels are rechecked, the d2 has gone up but the d3 has actually declined...
since d2 has been shown to have less affinity for the d receptor it takes more to get the same response, and when you push to get more you run the risk of pushing the d2 to a toxic level.
D3 is not that expensive, a four month supply of Solgar 1000 IU gelcaps is about 15 $...less than 4 $ a month at 2000 IU per day, considered by researchers to be an adult maintenance dose.
When I started taking large amounts of D and I unloaded the toxin load on my liver by eliminating the 4 or so cups of coffee I was drinking every day, I had 3 days of severe back pain followed by feeling the best I had in years.
Feeling worse on a d supplement doesn't necessarily mean it's bad for you, it may represent part of the self correcting process, but I say supplementing should be started at a low dose and titrated up to a daily dose that is taken consistently. Some people pound the 50,000 IU and feel lousy so they quit.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Here are some links to vitamin D information from the Marshall Protocol website. The first should help answer your initial question. D-Metabolites Tests, Vitamin D Tutorial.
Quest Diagnostics has a good track record for doing the tests properly. There is no longer any need to worry about all the details in handling the blood properly - Quest does it correctly now.
Don't assume that because vitamin D is called a "vitamin" that a deficiency, as measured by a lab or defined on the internet, must be a bad thing. The real question is whether or not the deficiency is a CAUSE or a SYMPTOM of your illness.
I have no doubt a TICK caused my illness, not lack of any so-called vitamin that is found in abundance in so much of our food. I certainly had no lack of sunshine!
Posts: 246 | From Grass Valley, CA | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Vitamin D is added to some foods, but it is not abundant in foods. What is added though is not the same as what we make from the sun. While there are folks who have trouble with rapid fluctuations in their vitamin D level, most will experience better health with extra sun or more stable health if they supplement with quality d3 through the winter months. Yes borrelia burgdorferi causes Lyme, but you would have to prove that everyone that contacts bb gets Lyme, and those who have low vit D levels will have suppressed immune systems that can't respond properly, and might be predisposed. Sun exposure is great, but sunscreen negates the production of D and other metabolic concerns affect the cycle so you can't assume that getting plenty of sun is the same as getting plenty of D.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Vitamin D is added to many dairy products, milk, powdered milk, soy milk, yogurt, ice cream, margarine, breakfast cereals, bread, protein drinks, diet drinks, cereal bars, nutrition bars, & even fruit juice. Heck, I see they are even adding it to orange juice now! It's usually not listed in the nutrition info unless it was added during manufacture, so avoiding processed foods is a good place to start. However, it is also naturally present in many foods containing animal products/fats, most fish, eggs, bacon, liver, etc.
FWIW, my 25-D was still 34 ng/ml (D3 was 28) when tested in mid-November, a month after discontinuing light exposure, multi-vitamins, & food supplemented with vitamin D. I have no doubt these values were higher when I was feasted on by the evil ticks.
In my opinion, Bb itself is not directly responsible for Lyme Disease. It adds to the mix of pathogens we have already collected thruout our lives & simply becomes the "straw that broke the camel's back" for many, including myself.
Posts: 246 | From Grass Valley, CA | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Again, the D that is added to foods is usually ergocalciferol, a fungal product. Adults over the age of 30 should avoid most processed or package foods (not eliminate, gotta have some fun)which are the very foods that are supplemented with the inferior D products. An article in the New England Journal of Medicine last summer stated that at a 25 OH D level lower than 30 there is difficulty absorbing calcium, a vital mineral in bone metabolism, blood coagulation cascades, muscle(including heart) contraction.
Bb is treated by the immune system in a very specific way as all bacteria are, and exposure is often the straw that breaks the camels back, but it is not the only straw on the camels back. That camels back will have more load capacity if natural cholecalciferol is available in abundance and there are no hindrances to its circulation prior to exposure to Bb. We should have a sit down with the evil ticks, can't we all just get along?
[ 07. February 2008, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: DoctorLuddite ]
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by DoctorLuddite: Again, the D that is added to foods is usually ergocalciferol, a fungal product.
Cholecalciferol (D3) is the more abundant food additive since it is found in products most heavily supplemented with vitamin D - dairy products. Take a look at the label on that jug of milk in your fridge. Fish products contain lots of D3. Ergocalciferol (D2) is usually not added to foods unless there is a specific reason to avoid using an animal-based product. Although I suppose all the vitamin D hype may soon make having both forms a better marketing gimmick. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholecalciferol http://www.foodcomp.dk/fcdb_foodcomplist.asp?CompId=0023
Vitamin D is stored in the fat of mammals, including man. The human body produces, collects, & stores all the vitamin D it needs. There is no need to supplement. A vitamin D "deficiency" is a SYMPTOM of a disease process.
Posts: 246 | From Grass Valley, CA | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
The human body only produces vitamin D when 7 dehydro cholesterol is irradiated by UV light, and sunscreen DOES impair that process.
There is no enzyme in the body that converts cholesterol into Vitamin D. Ergocalciferol and Lanolin derived cholecal are used in food, and neither of these come from something we would normally ingest (wool or fungus) I agree, they should be avoided.
Sunshine produces the most natural vitamin D, and since many infectious disease rates decline in the summer months, its connection to proper immune function is strongly suggested.
The next best source of cholecalciferol is cod liver oil, and the discovery of vitamin D came partly from the observation that cod liver oil prevented rickets. Fish products contain this form also, and should not be avoided for that reason, but for heavy metals, that's another story.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
BRH, it is hard to fathom WHY Vit D levels (D-25) could remain constant (or within normal range) when all sources of Vit D are eliminated..... this is certainly perplexing to me. Of course, in your case, it was only a month after eliminating sources of D, so perhaps we don't know yet how your D-25 level will be affected long term.
quote:When I started taking large amounts of D and I unloaded the toxin load on my liver by eliminating the 4 or so cups of coffee I was drinking every day, I had 3 days of severe back pain followed by feeling the best I had in years.
Feeling worse on a d supplement doesn't necessarily mean it's bad for you, it may represent part of the self correcting process, but I say supplementing should be started at a low dose and titrated up to a daily dose that is taken consistently.
So, Doc, you are saying that you ramped up too quickly and would go slower if you had it to do over? Also, is back pain one of your normal symptoms or was this something new?
In my case, I did well when I first started adding my bone-building calcium-based supplement which contains D3 (probably not from fish oil). I started slow and worked upward.
I'm not at a full 6 capsules a day yet because whenever I try to add another capsule (approximately 100 i.u. of D3) - or if I add 1 capsule of 400 i.u. of fish oil Vitamin D - my neck starts hurting really bad and I have increased bone and muscle pain. If not for a couple of remedies that help with the neck pain, I would not be able to sleep. So, I back off to what I was taking previously. I've tried this 3 times and had the same result, but there is still a chance it is just a coincidence and there is something else causing the problem that I'm not recognizing.
Frankly, this has me a little worried.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Truthfinder, that is perplexing, and since it is consistent, it should be figured out.
Do you have your D levels tested regularly, and are you certain that the D in your calcium supplement is a good one and is being absorbed? If you do have it checked is it broken down into D2 and D3?
There might be a connection if the D2 level is high, it should not be unless the bulk of your supplementation is made up of it, I think it affects the metabolism of D3, or at least the binding dynamics to the D receptor.
I wasn't happy about the back pain, but I reasoned that if my D level had been low for a while then increasing it was making my body shift its compensatory response, and perhaps remineralizing bone and changing muscle function (calcium is dependent on D and responsible for muscle contraction).
I found also weeks later when I took a calcium supplement that my neck got stiff, I now just try to eat foods that are naturally higher in calcium and let my body do the sorting out it needs to.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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map1131
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Member # 2022
posted
Truth, a month ago I found a new D3 at my health food store. It is a sublingual D3, tiny dots 1000 iu. I also do a liquid with cal/mag/vit d3 every day.
That D3 in the combo is only 400iu. Not enough for me during the winter months. So I know I need more.
I don't use any sun screen unless I'm going to be abusing the sun for the day. I never use sunscreen if I'm only going to be out in it an hour or so. I'm dark complexed so I don't burn easily.
If I'm on the lake for a few hours and the sun is beating down on me and I feel my skin getting pink, then I apply sunscreen.
Oh yeah, studies say getting the skin into the pink level helps bring out the endorphins in the body. Endorphins are our natural pain killers in the body, that get alerted when we go into the pink stage and might be going into the stupid in the sun stage. Sunburning is not good. Getting pink helps my body fight pain. The natural way.
Some with lyme & company say the sunshine makes them ill. I only experience this every once in awhile. I don't know why sometimes the sun makes me feel better and sometimes I don't like the way the sun makes me feel???????
Maybe someone has some clues about that situation?
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Sunscreen can reduce the amount of UV energy on the skin, but when 1,25-D is already elevated, supplementation via food or light can make matters worse for many, including myself. These people have disregulated vitamin D metabolism that appears to be due, at least in part, to upregulated keratinocyte production of 1,25-D in the presence of the inflammatory cytokine TNF-alpha. What if our (sick) bodies can produce all the 1,25-D they need without light?
posted
Actually, I'm sure I eliminated vitamin D supplementation from a multi-vitamin a few months before my initial D tests. I didn't eliminate the larger sources from supplemented foods (primarily milk & cereal) until about 1.5 months prior. I can probably dig up the exact dates if anyone cares.
Vitamin D levels normally drops by about half every 2-3 months after supplementation is stopped, but it could take longer, especially if you have higher levels of body fat. http://www.annals.org/cgi/content-nw/full/127/3/203/F1
Being an athlete, I had little body fat & my 25-D dropped pretty much as predicted. It has been below 18 ng/ml for more than a year & below 13 for at least 8 months. Last test was 12, after about 2 months of increased outdoor activity including sledding (LOTS of UV), hiking, & biking. People on MP have had lower levels for years without issues but in fact significant improvements in health.
Posts: 246 | From Grass Valley, CA | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by map1131: Some with lyme & company say the sunshine makes them ill. I only experience this every once in awhile. I don't know why sometimes the sun makes me feel better and sometimes I don't like the way the sun makes me feel???????
Maybe someone has some clues about that situation?
Pam
I'll give it a shot.
Your vitamin D metabolism is normally tightly controlled by your kidneys. If your vitamin D metabolism is dysregulated, as seems to be the case for many with chronic disease (like Lyme, for example), sun exposure can really mess with your vitamin D levels. In this case, you may not respond to sun as a normal healthy person would respond.
For example, sun exposure could cause your 1,25-D to rise quickly which will really mess with a bunch of other hormones, which could make you feel quite ill. High levels of 1,25-D also suppress your immune system. You feel worse when your immune system is killing bacteria & better when it is not.
So it may be a matter of which "response" dominates at a given point in time. That depends on lots of other variables (how much 1,25-D is being produced by your inflamed/infected tissues, for example).
[ 08. February 2008, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: B R H ]
Posts: 246 | From Grass Valley, CA | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
The rickets that plagued the world described by F. Glisson in the 1600s was indisputeably shown to be caused by vitamin D deficiency. Calcium cannot be absorbed if D levels are lower than 30, that was in the NEJM review article on Vit. D metabolism in July 07. Simply feeling ok or not having symptoms doesn't mean you are healthy; it could be just one virus particle that could knock you on your keister if your D level is low or if there is some impairment in the vitamin D circulation. We all know of people who seem healthy as a horse and after one slight fall they go through hell and take forever to recover. There are a few that have trouble going into the sun, but these are people who have been deficient for a long time and the metabolic response is just such an insult to their already strained stress response system.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Interesting Pam - do they tell you what the sublingual D3 is derived from? If I could, I would take a lot of vitamins and amino acids sublingually.... but I can no longer find what I used to take years ago.
The last few times I was in the sun long enough to wear sunscreen, the most shocking thing was the way I looked the next day. I looked so haggard and worn out. Yes, I'm getting older and perhaps this is what happens to older skin, but I looked ill. Didn't feel too great either.
Doc L, these are the first Vitamin D tests I've ever had, and I requested them from my doctor - but to be done at the hospital so I could have Quest labs do the testing. These tests should serve as a fairly decent `baseline' since the only Vitamin D I was getting prior to the test was 200-400 i.u. (cholecalciferol but probably not fish oil) in my supplements and what little sun I got., which was almost none this year, + food (no `fortified' foods). I purposely didn't start my bone-building supps + a little more Vitamin D3 , etc. until after I had the D testing done.
Here is the breakdown of my 25-D test result: Vitamin D, 25-OH, Total (see below): 16 - LOW (range is 20-100 25-OH, D3: 12 25-OH, D2: 4
What type of calcium was in the supplement you took? I have heard that remineralization can cause some pain, although I don't know if that is `normal'.
Previously, I've taken small amounts of calcium citrate, which I tolerated the best (GI/ constipation-wise). This new supplement contains calcium from MCHA (Microcrystalline Hydroxyapatite). Perhaps instead of trying to add more of this bone-building supplement, I will add calcium citrate + some fish oil D3 instead. It wouldn't hurt to supplement with both MCHA and cal-citrate anyway - let my body decide what it can absorb/use.
I've decided to keep taking 400 i.u. of the fish oil Vitamin D every day unless I get to a point where I can't control the neck pain with remedies. I actually felt pretty good late this morning, so decided to continue with this plan. Maybe, as you suggested, I'm experiencing a bit of a backlash from a metabolic response that has been nearly absent for a long time.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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map1131
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posted
Truth, I filled up my daily pill case and used the last dots D3 last week. So I need to go to the health food store and get some more.
I'll try to remember to get you the info on these sublingual dots D3. I might need your help reminding me? lol
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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Truthfinder
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posted
LOL, well Pam, don't worry about it. I'm sure this topic will come up again anyway. And I can do some searching myself......do either of these products sound familiar? Or perhaps you can remember the brand name....
Metagenics makes a D3 1000 ``bioactive Vitamin D3 in microtablet form''.... it just says the D3 is from cholecalciferol, so it probably isn't from fish oil....
TwinLab makes a D3+K2 1000 sublingual dot product..... again it just says that the D3 is cholecalciferol...... plus then it has the added K2.....
Those are the two that popped up immediately on a Google search....
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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map1131
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posted
BRH, yes it makes a difference in some things, which brand or type you buy. Sometimes you can be wasting your money buying an inferior product.
Great example of this is probiotics. Buy a cheap brand and take abx daily for long term and see how much the cheap probiotic helps or prevents you from getting a gut problem just as bad as the bacteria you are treating with the abx.
So yeah, BRH it does make a difference in many cases on taking supplements of worth.
Just like taking B-12 supplementation. You've got to know more than just take b-12. It's not that simple.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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map1131
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posted
Truth, to answer your question...yes, it's the Twinlab D3 dots that I've been using for a couple months.
Even on cloudy, gloomy days....for me it's like a ray of sunshine. I don't remember if I felt it the first day or the seventh day. I just know it helped me.
I give everything I try a 30 day test. Some supps get even 60 days to make a difference.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Maybe you should consider MP to avoid all those "gut problems" from high doses of antibiotics? MP uses low doses of bacteriostatic antibiotics taken only every other day, some only every 10 days! When taken in this manner the antibiotic does more damage to the bacteria than you!
I agree that probiotics can be helpful for some, including myself. I still take 1 Theralac capsule every week. It is the only probiotic that doesn't cause GI problems for me!
Posts: 246 | From Grass Valley, CA | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Here is an explanation of Vit D worth reading (by a MP nurse practitioner)
"Simple explanation of vitamin D metabolism
There are two forms of Vitamin D.....active and inactive.
Vitamin D is not a vitamin. Vitamins are substances the body cannot make (lack of Vitamin C causing scurvy is a good example).
Vitamin D is a secosteroid hormone with a function similar to that which prednisone performs. It was misidentified when it was discovered (at the University of Wisconsin) and the name has stuck. Vitamin D (a secosteroid hormone) is an immune-suppressant,
The body makes the inactive form of Vitamin D in the cells of the skin.
The Vitamin D made in the skin is inactive and easy to measure. It's only function is as a precursor for the body to make the active form of Vitamin D.
People do not need to take Vitamin D in any form (food or supplements) to have enough of the active form in their body because the body makes it in the kidneys and other cells using the inactive form made in the skin.
It only takes a few minutes of natural light to produce enough inactive Vitamin D which is stored by the body for use when natural light is scarce.
The active form of Vitamin D is used by the Vitamin D Receptors (VDR) in almost every cell in the body, including immune system cells, for many vital functions including activating the immune system.
Most chronic disease is caused by inflammation. Inflammation is caused by intracellular bacteria that live within the white cells of the immune system.
These bacteria block activation of the Vitamin D Receptors in the cells, so that key antimicrobial peptides cannot be manufactured by the immune system, and in the process cause the body to produce too much active Vitamin D to accumulate in the cells.
Thus, the bacteria can continue to live and multiply within the cells of the immune system.
People who are ill with inflammatory diseases make too much of the active hormone but scientists rarely measure this because it is difficult and expensive.
People who are ill and have too much of the active Vitamin D will have a low level of the inactive Vitamin D because of a complicated feedback mechanism in the cells that manufacture the active Vitamin D. In other words, the high active Vitamin D reduces the level of the inactive Vitamin D....remember this is the only form scientists usually bother to measure.....erroneously thinking that a low inactive level means a low active level.
Scientists have ignored this crucial fact and base conclusions about disease on the measurement of only the inactive Vitamin D which is low because of the disease process.
When people with chronic disease have their active Vitamin D level measured it is found to be high.
Low inactive Vitamin D does not cause diseases. The diseases cause the low inactive Vitamin D.
Studies of Vitamin D need to measure both inactive Vitamin D (which will be low in chronic disease) and the active Vitamin D which will be high in chronic disease in order to come to accurate conclusions about chronic disease.
People with chronic disease who take Vitamin D (food and supplements) will suppress the action of the Vitamin D Receptor and thus turn-off the immune system's response so it cannot fight the intra-phagocytic bacteria that cause chronic inflammatory diseases.
Some people feel better in the short-term when they take Vitamin D because bacteria are not being killed which often causes temporary symptoms due to increased toxins, but they will succumb to the chronic diseases which are caused by intracellular infection more rapidly in the long-run.
Many people with chronic diseases feel ill when they take too much Vitamin D or spend too much time in the sun where their skin makes Vitamin D.
Too much active vitamin D has the effect of taking calcium from the bones and depositing it in the heart or lungs or kidneys (kidney stones), reducing their function.
Too much active Vitamin D causes calcium to leech from bones which results in osteoporosis.
Rickets is caused by too little calcium not lack of Vitamin D."
Posts: 12 | From Weston CT | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I'm sorry to disagree, but that is almost all wrong. 25 hydroxy D has a function and does bind to the vdr, though with nowhere near the affinity of 1,25 di OH D.
Rickets is a disease if demineralized bones, but the vast majority of cases are due to lack of vitamin D, which potentiates the absorption of calcium from the intestine.
Truth, that D3 level is too low, as I have said in other threads and here, and gentle supplementation is advised until prudent sun exposure can be had.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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Cobweb
Unregistered
posted
Perhaps I am naive in turning all that stuff over to my endocrinologist to figure out.
My vitamin D was "very very low" so I was prescribed a booster dose for 8 weeks and now I am on daily Calcium with Vitamin D.
My chart has a code in it for "malapsorption syndrome" which she thinks could actually be celiac disease-but I don't feel like being tested for celiac-physically or financially.
So I just take my supplements and follow a gluten, etc. diet.
Recently was retested-so we'll see where I'm at now. I am not in the sun much throughout the year-Fall and Spring, maybe. But winter is too cold and summer is too hot!
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Truthfinder
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posted
BRH and jcb, as you know, the prevailing literature does not support Marshall's theories. That does not mean that Marshall is wrong. I believe there are some factors involved in specific chronic illnesses that have either been overlooked or are simply as yet unknown.
There are too many people who DO NOT do well on the MP - and vice-versa - to draw any general conclusions. I'm trying to keep an open mind.
Thanks, Pam - I'll keep the `dots' in mind. At this point, I'm looking for fish-oil derived D3 since my one supplement already has the other form of cholecalciferol.
I seem to be tolerating the daily additional 400 i.u. of `fishy' D3 a LOT better than I was initially. It has only been 4 days, but it seems that I'm not reacting to it like I was. I've had some additional back problems but that is sort of `normal' for me, and even that seems to be getting better despite the fact that I've had to do some physical things that could have made the problem worse. Keeping my fingers crossed..... My face was actually out in the sun today for a couple of hours (off and on), too.....I'll wait at least a full week before adding any more D3. I've stayed on the remedy that helped my neck, but I'm not sure I'll need it within a day or two.....
Yes, Doc, we agree that my D3 level is too low...... I'm working on it and will retest at some point, assuming I can tolerate the supplementation necessary to make a difference.
Cobby, I'm quite sure that malabsorbtion is a big issue for me, too, and has been for a long time.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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My impression is results re the Vit D issue are all over the map. I've heard from people that said the MP did nothing for them.
Then a friend says she does benicar with samento, and after an initial unpleasant herx, felt better and better by the week almost to the point of feeling really good ie, ending the Lyme symptoms that had been plaguing her.
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
quote:Then a friend says she does benicar with samento, and after an initial unpleasant herx, felt better and better by the week almost to the point of feeling really good ie, ending the Lyme symptoms that had been plaguing her.
Now that is very interesting, Robin. I can't say that I've heard heard that combination before.
Was this her own idea, or was this recommended to her?
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Using samento with benicar was recommended to her by an LLMD.
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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pamoisondelune
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11846
posted
I stopped taking Vit D2 and started Vit D3 4 days ago. I've had 4 doses of Vit D3 at 5,000 IU's.
I chose this dose because 1)I had heard this dose is non-toxic and 2) I was listening to my back. I had had some low-level bone aches in the upper back for a couple of weeks. When i tried 1,000 IUs Vit D3 for a day, it didn't relieve the low-level aches, except briefly. When I tried the dose of 5,000 IU's, it did relieve the bone aches for part of the day, but not the whole 24 hrs. So i conclude my target dose could be higher; but i'll wait for tests. Today I had my D 25 (D2 and D3) tested, and my D 25 and D 1,25 ratio tested, if the doctor ordered the right tests! He hadn't been quite sure about all these differences.
So now how long do i wait before settling on a Vit D3 dose? 3 months? What about D2 stored in fat--- how do i get it out, or is it matabolized by itself as needed? It wouldn't be needed, would it, if i'm taking Vit D3 at 5,000 IUs/day?
Posts: 1226 | From USA | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Those are good questions, but the answer will depend on what the levels come back at. What brand of D are you using and do you know the source (fish, lanolin?)I dont trust lanolin as a D source...
[ 17. February 2008, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: DoctorLuddite ]
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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