posted
I have a friend who confided in my that during the summer of 2006 she had a bullseye rash. At the time she saw a doctor who tested her for Lyme, which came back negative. Today she told me he did NOT prescribe antibiotics at that time. She has been otherwise symptom free since then.
I didn't want to freak her out, since she is otherwise asymptomatic...But I felt myself cringe when she said her doctor didn't give her a round of antibiotics at the time of the rash.
What would your advise to her be since she seems otherwise healthy right now?
Thank you!
-------------------- "You play the hand you're dealt. I think the game's worthwhile."
C. S. Lewis Posts: 36 | From Illinois | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
obviously her immune system is strong and either keeping it dormant or fought it off completely.
some people are able to fight it off. but she may at some point get sick. either at the time of a serious injury or accident when her immune system is off guard, that is when it will attack
is she really completely healthy? no one is perfect.
some people test positive and are symptom free.
knowing what I know now, if I were completely symptom free I would just sit tight and wait and enjoy life while I could.
sometimes if it aint broke dont fix it.
edited to add:
i would like to retract the last part about knowing what I know now and not getting treated. what I meant is that antibiotics could cause a herx and cause asymptomatic lyme to become symptomatic. someone told me that when I asked about my son (he tested positive)
but the risk of not treating is probably worse. an LLMD would know best
[ 17. February 2008, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: roro ]
Posts: 615 | From maryland | Registered: Oct 2007
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lou4656
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10300
posted
Will B -- That was my story.
Long story, short.
2000 - Bullseye rash. Elisa and Western Blot negative. So no treatment.
Crashed in 2004. Still undiagnosed. Recovered.
Totally crashed in 2006. Finally diagnosed in 2007. Long road to recovery.
She should see an LLMD.
-------------------- LouLou Posts: 1276 | From maryland | Registered: Oct 2006
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Geneal
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10375
posted
Hmmmmm. A negative Lyme test at the time of the rash???
Maybe because it takes at least 6 weeks to show an antibody response.
My LLMD always looks at the WB then says....but what are your symptoms.
If he/she is asymptomatic my LLMD would not treat at this time.
However, I think it would still be in your friend's best interest
To find a LLMD. Run it by him/her...And at least have a doctor
Should symptoms start to appear.
I didn't know any better and was having chronic sinus, pink eye, numbness in my hands at night.
I thought that was all part of "normal".
Joint pain started about 3.5 months before I crashed big time.
Hugs,
Geneal
Posts: 6250 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2006
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merrygirl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12041
posted
My dad claims to have had a large EM rash 10 years ago.
He is fine....
go figure
Melissa
Posts: 3905 | From USA | Registered: May 2007
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tickled1
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14257
posted
I was what some would consider "fine" for years before I crashed.
But looking back now, there were many signs. The bite was in 2000. There were weird little things until 2004 when the fatigue got worse. Then in 2007 I completely crashed.
You know what they say....Hindsight is 20/20.
If I was your friend, I guess I'd want to try a round of ABX just to see if I herxed. Or ask her if she's been on ABX for anything else and had a herx.
Posts: 2541 | From Northeast | Registered: Jan 2008
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adamm
Unregistered
posted
I'm pretty sure Lyme's impossible to fight off on your own
(by all means correct me if I'm wrong, though).
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posted
My LLMD wouldn't treat her either without symptoms. It is sort of a contradiction, one of the golden rules is to treat until symptom free. Isn't she symptom free now?
Posts: 649 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2003
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daise
Unregistered
posted
Hello,
I got a huge bulls-eye rash on my upper thigh--and no symptoms. A book at the library with a big picture of MY RASH identified it as ringworm. Ha!
Nine years later BAM, signs and symptoms all at once: Bell's palsy, severe muscle pain, bad limp, a warm and hurting bone infarct, a bad neck/atlas problem, my brain was--well--you know!
Less than 3 months later I had constant, severe head pain in the back of my head 24/7 and a month after that my hearing wavered.
Nothing went into remission or migrated. Most signs and symptoms, I still have, but they're a whole lot better after abx for a long time. I expect to improve further.
Beware,OK? A bulls-eye rash is a warning that the pathogen is in the body.
posted
I had random symptoms the years following my bites, but didn't get sick for about 10 years. Stress has always pushed me over the edge to illness, and ten years after exposure I had significant enough stress to make me sick.
If I knew I had a bullseye rash and I was not sick, I would do what the people who get better from Lyme Disease do ... I would consider myself in remission.
I would take supplements to build the immune system, I would get enough sleep, I would exercise and eat right. At the first sign of any Lyme symptom, I would most likely try the Cowden herbs (Samento and Cumanda particularly) to see if it would go back into remission. If it did not, I would get to an LLMD before I got really ill from it.
Exposure+symptoms = Lyme Disease .... not exposure alone.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
Your friend's story struck a chord! That was me....bullseye in summer '96......didn't get sick, and because we "don't have Lyme in CA" I never thought anymore about it. Why would I?
Didn't get sick until 3 months after my son was born in 2005. Hindsight is 20/20...there were weird, short episodes of stiff neck and headache, sleep problems, but nothing major. I always wrote it off to stress at work. My LLMD said my immune system had been very strong and keeping the Lyme and co dormant.
I think Six gave good advice. Definitely get your friend to go to an LLMD and perhaps she should try herbs to see what happens. The bullseye means the pathogen is in the body, but without symptoms = no disease.
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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Aniek
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5374
posted
It took about 18 months for my symptoms to start after the rash.
-------------------- "When there is pain, there are no words." - Toni Morrison Posts: 4711 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
That is one of the difficulties of navigating this sea of controversy. If you do or do not treat and ten months or weeks or years later symptoms appear, has it been a dormant infection all that time, or was there reinfection? If stress kicked it off after a long dormancy, would it be better to address the stress than to introduce some "medicine" that is supposed to be better at what the immune system was doing so well during that dormancy? Not only that, there are lots of folks out there that cannot remember a tick bite or a rash.
Wellness is the total effect of disease burden "allostatic load" on the capacity for its management, the tendency toward homeostasis. Your friend's antibody test should be repeated, and if positive, titers done to assess immune activation.
Whatever the result, constant diligence in maintaining a healthy lifestyle should be pursued.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
I would take homeopathic remedies to combat any infection from a tick bite.... and I would take them as soon as possible after a bite - don't wait for a rash.
Last year, I contacted Alan V. Schmukler in Pennsylvania, author of the book ``Homeopathy : An A to Z Home Handbook '' and here's what he said (I have permission to post this information, by the way):
quote:"I was bitten by a lyme tick two years ago and got the classic circle lesion. The remedies I suggested in the book, totally protected me."
And here is what is in his book:
quote:1st day: Ledum 200C [one dose] 2nd day: Hypericum 200C [one dose] 3rd day: Borrelia burgdorferi nosode 30C . One dose a day for one week, then one dose a week for one month.
If your local health food store can't or won't order the 200C potencies of Ledum and Hypericum, they can be ordered from several places in the USA:
Nosodes cannot be sold over-the-counter in the USA; therefore, you will have to get your nosode from a homeopath or order it from overseas. Or, if you are currently under the care of a homeopath, you can order nosodes from Hahnemann Labs in California: http://www.hahnemannlabs.com/
Here are a couple of reputable homeopathic labs in England (prices are in British pounds on the website - current conversion rate is about $2 to 1 British pound.):
Even if you don't have the nosode, the Ledum and Hypericum remedies could be helpful in preventing infection.
This is not medical advice and no prophylactic treatment is 100% effective - I'm just passing on information.
Edit note: Celletech in the USA offers a number of ``homeoptherapeutic'' remedies - these are not true homeopathic remedies made from substances, but are created electromagnetically; therefore, they can sell `nosodes' over the counter. They have a number of combination `tick' remedies and `Lyme' remedies; they have a `Borrelia burdorferi remedy, and Bartonella henselea, several mycoplasma `nosodes (no Babs)...... I've never used their products but this might be a way to get `nosodes' without jumping through hoops. I would contact them before ordering anything because most of their remedies carry no explanation http://celletech.com/commerce/catalog.jsp?catId=50&companyId=50
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Just sending out a sincere thanks to everyone for their replies. I think there is much wisdom here...
Here is the lingering thought I have. Veterinarians treat prophylactically if there has been tick exposure in a dog. They know the risks involved with tick exposure and give their patients antibiotics when exposed to ticks...EVEN when there are no symptoms.
I have a hard time understanding why a physician wouldn't treat for a rash like this, especially when the cost of something like Doxy is so little compared to the ultimate cost of disabling symptoms that the Lyme can cause down the line.
Surely there must be some, albeit rare scenarios, where physicians treat a patient who presents with a rash.
I'm interested to know what the exact guidelines are for a situation where the person presents with obvious tick exposure and a rash.
-------------------- "You play the hand you're dealt. I think the game's worthwhile."
C. S. Lewis Posts: 36 | From Illinois | Registered: Jan 2008
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
1) Some strains of lyme are self limiting--I forget what the mutations are, but they only produce the rash. 2) I know others who had a bullseye rash and never got sick. Perhaps they had a self limiting strain or they have genetic mutations/variation that put the bug into dormancy right away 3) A few prophylactic weeks of antibiotics won't kill the spirochete.
I wouldn't treat if the person feels well.
Others who remember a rash and got sick years later may have had a second tickbite and one with coinfections.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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daise
Unregistered
posted
Oxygenbabe,
Getting bit and or getting a bulls-eye rash--then years later having the Lyme proliferate is well known.
posted
My daughter turned 11 in Dec of 1991. I took the tick off her back in March of 1992. She had no rash. Just a little circle thing where the tick had been. I don't remember flu like symptoms.
When she was 12 she had her first CT scan because she had bad headaches. MD said it was stress, (with a 12 year old?) since the CT scan was "normal". He did an ELISA becasue I told him about the tick.
She was a dancer and a high level figure skater in her teens. She had numerous "skating injuries" only they couldn't ever find anything wrong.......bone scans, x-rays, physical therapy, massage......and the list goes on.
Then the panic attacks and depresson, too tired to go to school, poor grades and learning disabilities......she had none earlier in her schooling.
Kept on doing competitions and skating 4 to 5 hours a day even though she was in constant pain, here or there. It was always something.
At 19 she couldn't take it any more and stopped. Started teaching figure skating, was a very good coach and had many students. Got married had baby at 22. Very difficult pregnancy. Baby born with Lyme. Didn't know it till she was 3.
At 24 it was too painful to go out of the house much.....I started researching and came up with Lyme and bullied an MD to do a Western Blot. Came back positive. Found LLMD. Now at 27 she is pretty much bedridden. All the old aches, pains, and the non stop headaches are her life now.
Get your friend to an LLMD, let them do the testing and the history. Had I only knew then what I know now we could have saved her young life. The symptoms were there, we just didn't know it and she was in great physical condition so they kept going away.
I would have forced our doctor to treat her for at least 8 weeks or more in the beginning, or found someone that would, symptoms or not had I been educated about Lyme back then.
I believe symptoms or not, if the Lyme is there it will rear it's ugly head eventually. And your friend did have a bullseye. That would be more than enough for me.
HUGS,
-------------------- ICEY Posts: 468 | From Las Vegas NV | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Encourage her to see an LLMD, as she does have Lyme whether she wants to believe it or not.
Send her an email or write the facts down, so she can mull it over with the info in front of her, on her own time.
Be prepared for resistance -- I know 3 intelligent people who have had the rash, took 3 weeks of abx at low doses, and are convinced they're better, despite knowing my situation and the extent of my knowledge. I am expecting them all to get sick again at some point. I couldn't even convince one friend to take probiotics, she thought eating yogurt was enough.
Posts: 449 | From Vermont | Registered: Nov 2004
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Daise, Pam Weintraub's new book out in April, Cure Unknown, explains it. Some strains may be self limiting--not capable of causing longterm disease. It's a distinct possibility. I suppose it can also lay dormant for years but I'm of the school that there is usually unknown reinfection that overloads the system. Tickbites usually go completely unnoticed.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
This happened with me. I did not have a rash, but was tested for lyme per my ortho surgeon who was going to operated on me for carpel tunnel. The test came back positive from lab corp. I was absolutely symptom free. My pcp gave me a 3 week course of abx, still no symtpoms, except I got the rash after the 3 week course of abx. I retested after that, came out negative, had the surgery, and life went on symptom free, until I about 7 years later when I herniated my disc and began taking steroids. That weakened my immune system. I then had surgery 7 months ago for a miniscus tear in my knee, and boom!! Lyme came out from hiding. with a vengence. I prayed that God would take my life from the pain I endured. After discovering I had lyme, I had my kids tested. My son had igG positive (the old one, not current), but has no symptoms. I consulted with my llmd , and Dr. Jones in Conn. Both said don't treat if symptom free. Only treat when there are symtoms. Dr. Jones told me the immune system kills the bacteria on its own without ABX, so if no symptoms, don't treat. I would not open up a can of worms. I am scared for my son, even my daughter had a negative western blot, but had some bands which were neither positive nor negative, so I still freak out when my kids get sick. but I give my kids lots of supplements, and that helps big time. Jenin
Posts: 455 | From Maryland | Registered: Jul 2007
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