posted
it seems that a lot of doctors are thinking now that MS is a symptom of lyme. In other words, lyme is the disease, and lyme causes you to have the symptoms of MS
MS is not a "disease" in the sense that it does not have a specific cause. MS is a list of symptoms, and probably can have several causes (infectious or possibly otherwise)
there are many other diseases like this, that are just a list of symptoms and they don't know the cause (chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, ALS) many of these are caused by lyme or other infections
I would see if your dr's could treat both, or if not treat the lyme first. I believe MS treatment is steroids, and if you have lyme, steroids is a disaster. steroids just treats the symptoms it doesn't treat the cause
but in some cases, you have to treat the symptoms also. for example, I have lyme, lyme is causing me chronic pain. I take pain meds for the pain while taking antibiotics to treat the infection.
if someone has severe mental problems from the lyme, they may still have to treat the mental problems with psych drugs while waiting for the antibiotics to kick in
maybe you can take the antibiotics and the steroids together?
Posts: 615 | From maryland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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I think you are very wise to have an LLMD appt. as well as taking into account the finding and opinions of MS specialists.
The quote, the question: " . . . white matter lesions look very much like MS lesions, especially the location of them." (end quote)
This is a very good question. It is my understanding that the lesions can be one and the same and many have seen them literally disappear after treatment for lyme / TBI.
Also perhaps a consideration is that the lyme tests in the US are usually only for one strain, Bb. There are hundreds of strains but just tests for few, worldwide. If you traveled to various regions or other countries, looking at different strains might be very helpful.
I don't know if other TBI could also cause lesions. I assume, though, since you sound like your LLMD has seen you before that co-infections have been considered.
I don't know if a virus would cause such lesions but that would be a good question, too. My mother had HIV in 1984 and had lesions in her brain from that. That is a virus. So, would other viruses possibly also cause lesions, I wonder?
Brian Fallon, MD at the Columbia University lyme research center in NY may also have some good articles and illustrative materials. If you call their office, you may be able to get the latest research. I don't have the exact name of the office.
This is an excellent article that goes into great detail regarding, separately, Lyme and MS, and also Lyme & MS as dual diagnoses:
The objectives of this article are to cover issues related to Lyme disease that are not even-handedly addressed in the current literature. It will:
1 Present a practical approach for making the diagnosis of neuroborreliosis,
2 Explore the other side of the post-Lyme syndrome (i.e. the likelihood of chronic ongoing infection),
3 Discuss the relationship between MS and Lyme,
4 Critique the current regimens published for treating neuroborreliosis, and
5 Present my own approach which may differ from some leading authorities.
``Anyone who, in discussion, relies upon authority uses not his understanding but rather his memory.''
--Leonardo da Vinci, Notebooks (c. 1500)
It is hoped this data will provide the reader with a broader understanding of neuroborreliosis so that he or she may better use current and evolving knowledge for clinical decision making.
--
full two page article at link above. Be sure to see the second page, it can be overlooked.
======================================
You might also contact the author's office to see if she has any new research. I can PM the number to you if you like. A neurologist, she is an ILADS member, a LLMD.
-- I just called her office. She is still in pratice, however, she is no longer treating lyme patients. She has no research beyond the date of article above and her office has no names of neurologists for referral who are also lyme specialists. (Ohh, that is too bad.) Although ILADS or your LLMD might.
posted
I'm no doctor, but common sense would tell me that if abx improves the symptoms, it isn't MS. I argued that same point with someone else on here, that swore abx cured people she knew with ALS. I told her that there is no clinical evidence, that anything modern science has available today, will "improve" ALS. Each person might have different timeframes for the disease to progress, but ALS patients DO NOT improve from abx. I would think that the same holds true for MS patients as well.
-------------------- Craig Posts: 207 | From Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: Nov 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS - John G. Connor, M.Ac., LAc., - Nov. 2003
excerpts:
According to an article by Parris M. Kidd, PhD, on multiple sclerosis published in Alternative Medicine Review (2001) agents that can trigger MS exacerbations include
viral infections, emotional stress, pregnancy, heat exposure, allergic reactions to foods and irritation or provocation by environmental agents.
The major etiological factors best supported by the available evidence are inherited susceptibility, microbial infections and environmental toxin exposure. Diet has been less studied but undoubtedly makes important contributions.
. . .
The question of glutamine supplementation in MS:
In an article by Subhuti Dharmananda on the dangers of excess glutamine in MS, he notes that in some neurological diseases, it is found that glutamate levels in the central nervous system become unusually high at sites of pathology . . . .
. . .
Viruses Linked to MS: 6 are listed here
Toxins and other Environmental Factors which may be Linked to MS: listed here
. . . Swank's Dietary Protocol . . . Swank's diet significantly reduces the platelet adhesiveness and aggregation which is observed in atherosclerotic processes as well as in MS.
Excessive platelet aggregation and micro-emboli are thought to result in damage to the blood-brain barrier, alterations in the micro-circulation of the brain and spinal cord and lack of oxygen to the brain . . .
[Also discussed here: Chinese Medical view of Multiple Sclerosis and Nutritional and Herbal Support]
- Full article at link above.
======================================
Poster's note: Years ago, I met two MS patient who did very well on the SWANK DIET.
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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If you are so inclined, these articles may be of interest. This group had a MS grant for a research study several years ago. Some of that would show up here.
posted
I just wanted to comment on some of the replies on this thread to say that my husband was facing the same dilemma = although his lesions are all in his spine.
It's worth noting that there's been some research into using minocycline to treat MS = doc's think that some antibiotics have anti-inflammatory properties in addition to their primary usage. So, it's possible for you to see improvements on antibiotics, even if it is MS.
Not that our neurologists would even consider that treatment protocol despite my husband's prior dramatic improvement on IV rocephin. They are all intent on pushing the MS drugs.
I would urge you to obtain actual copies of the MS drug studies - the primary study is called PRISM - and read the results for yourself before deciding on them.
For what its worth, Carolyn Britton with the Columbia University Lyme Research Center suggested to us that it was reasonable to pursue treatment for both MS and Lyme. She said that the MS treatment wouldn't be counter-productive to a Lyme patient as long as you were also on antibiotics.
Posts: 39 | From wdc | Registered: Aug 2007
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JRWagner
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3229
posted
For those who do not know, My MS Doctor is Head of Research at NY Hospital, Cornell Presbyterian, and he acknowledges the possibility of a link between Lyme and MS...as well as EBV and MS. I had taken Copaxone in the past...as well as Mino...but never both at the same time. My thought is the mino, not the Copaxone, is producing the results.
Combination Therapy Including Antibiotics May Be Beneficial For Multiple Sclerosis
Treatment with Copaxone Plus Minocycline Showed Substantial,Reduction of Disease Activity in Patients with Active,Relapsing-Remitting Multiple Sclerosis
Peace, Love and Wellness, JRW
Posts: 1414 | From Ny, Ny | Registered: Oct 2002
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Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200
posted
quote:Originally posted by tracisuzanne:
MY QUESTION- are there "typical" locations for white matter lesions caused by Lyme? Are they the same as MS locations?
It is impossible to tell from the location of the lesions whether they are due to MS or lyme.
I have had MRI's and repeat MRI's describing 11 lesions in various places in my brain, primarily frontal lobe but not exclusively. They are described as being attributable to MS or lyme or vasculitis. I also have abnormal evoked potentials testing and very abnormal spinal tap, though no oligoclonal banding present. (Though oligoclonal banding can come from lyme as well.)
One of your most important diagnostic signs, in my mind, is your IND on band 31. I am sure there is nothing on earth that cross reacts with band 31 other than b. burgdorferi.
I too would be on MS drugs right now but for my LLMD. Fortunately my western blot was off the charts positive; however, your immune system may not be functioning as well.
An LLMD may wish to elicit a stronger antibody response by using a trial of antibiotics followed by a retest. An LLMD would also be interested in your clinical response to a trial of antibiotics and whether there is an apparent worsening in your symptoms.
I laughed at your statement that your 'ducks' call LLMD's 'quacks!' What I've found to be true is that LLMDs will seriously consider MS in a differential diagnosis, but neurologists will NEVER consider neuroborreliosis. That's a problem. The national neurologists' association in fact recently rubber stamped the highly restrictive and frankly idiotic IDSA guidelines, further cementing their refusal to even entertain lyme as a differential diagnosis in spite of a wealth of research supporting it.
I am really glad you have an LLMD appointment. Please let us know how it goes!
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
In neurologic Lyme Disease, approximately 15-45% of patients may have white matter hyperintensities. These are sometimes also called UBOs or "unidentified bright objects". In some patients, antibiotic treatment results in a diminution or disappearance of these hyperintensities. Certain MRI sequences are best able to detect hyperintensities; these include FLAIR sequences and Magnetization Transfer methods. These MRI images in Lyme Disease may appear similar to the demyelinated areas seen in the "white matter" of the brain MRI of patients with multiple sclerosis. From Columbia-Lyme-Site
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
The key word is "possibility". It would seem from a common sense standpoint, that if the two were mirror images, a clinician could treat MS with abx. As it stands, abx are not the typical protocol for the treatment of MS, which must mean that there is a difference.
I don't disagree that Lyme might weaken the immune system, making it more susceptible to other things, but there's a reason why they are labeled as two distinct diseases, treated in different ways. Also, if you look at the study quoted, it stated that 60% saw a decrease in lesions, which is just slightly more than half. That means that almost half of the people taking abx, did not have a reduction in lesions. So, hard to say, whether the abx or something else was responsible.
-------------------- Craig Posts: 207 | From Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote: It would seem from a common sense standpoint, that if the two were mirror images, a clinician could treat MS with abx. As it stands, abx are not the typical protocol for the treatment of MS, which must mean that there is a difference.
Clinicians do not treat MS with abx because the MEDICAL world calls MS an autoimmune disease........why would they treat MS with abx?
You are wrong here too,
In fact, MS and Lyme can be mirror images of each other in clinical presentation, lab studies, MRIs and, by the way, GEOGRAPHICALLY.
The medical establishment's inability to grasp this does not justify not recognizing and treating the underlying infection.
Craig, at the risk of sounding arrogant, you need to catch up on your info before you sound off.
As to lesions........let's face it, long term lesions will most likely never resolve so I think 60% disappearing lesions is outstanding.
Also, although considered "long term" administration of abx in the study, we all know that even three months of abx is a pitience when it comes to treating lyme.
Anecdotally, it took two years of abx for my husband's Thoracic lesions to go away (yup, all of em'). But even then the radiologist said they were "artifactual" lesions-- in other words, because they disappeared they must never have been there in the first place. This, Craig, is an exceptional incite into how the medical establishment views non-conventional MS treatment.
So, we really don't have any "true" studies of the use of long term and combination abx on lyme/MS. We have no really good way to distinguish between lyme/MS. We have no really good therapy options for MS.
I will always contend that EVERYONE with an MS dx be given antibiotics to treat lyme and coinfections. These can even be given safely and concurrently with approved disease modifying drugs for MS to hedge one's bets. With MS patients they have ABSOLUTELY nothing to lose!
Posts: 554 | From Naples, Italy | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Excuse me, but how do I need to catch up on my info? Your statement "So, we really don't have any true studies of the use of long term and combination abx on lyme/MS.", basically agrees with my point. There are no "true" studies, when it comes to the effectiveness of abx on MS, or clinicians would already be prescribing them universally. There are also no "true" studies done, which denote that Lyme and MS are one in the same, or if Lyme brings on MS.
So perhaps you should review what you wrote, before sounding off. In essence, the overall prevailing thought regarding what you wrote, agrees with my point. Nobody ever said that MS patients shouldn't be willing to give different treatment options a try; however, I do have a problem with posters who quote studies, and then "infer" their own meaning.
P.S. If there are no "true" studies, as you claim, then my "opinion" cannot be wrong.
-------------------- Craig Posts: 207 | From Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: Nov 2007
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tickled1
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14257
posted
Keebler,
I hope I'm not prying too much but you said your mom "HAD" HIV in 1984? Does this mean she no longer has it???
Posts: 2541 | From Northeast | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
I just read traci's original posting again.......no banter sorry, so Craig, I fully intend to ignore your post. You missed my point entirely.
Tracisuzzane.......I like this little publication from the National Institutes of Health....it's a little dated 1993, but the info is still top notch regarding the manifestation and presentation of neurological lyme disease. As you will see, it is frighteningly similar to MS in every way.
posted
"I just read traci's original posting again.......no banter sorry, so Craig, I fully intend to ignore your post. You missed my point entirely."
I don't want banter. If you're going to call me out like that, don't subsequently prove my point with your rhetoric. I'm sure you will "ignore" my post, since it addresses how you virtually agreed with me [perhaps without knowing it]. I'm not interested in arguing with you, only to point out that VERY important fact.
I realize that those who are afflicted with terrible diseases should try different options for treatment, but let's not take a leap of faith and say that one disease triggers another, or is successfully treated the same way. Afterall, you admitted that there aren't any "true" studies to support that inference.
-------------------- Craig Posts: 207 | From Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: Nov 2007
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200
posted
quote:Originally posted by CraigC: The key word is "possibility". It would seem from a common sense standpoint, that if the two were mirror images, a clinician could treat MS with abx. As it stands, abx are not the typical protocol for the treatment of MS, which must mean that there is a difference.
I don't disagree that Lyme might weaken the immune system, making it more susceptible to other things, but there's a reason why they are labeled as two distinct diseases, treated in different ways. Also, if you look at the study quoted, it stated that 60% saw a decrease in lesions, which is just slightly more than half. That means that almost half of the people taking abx, did not have a reduction in lesions. So, hard to say, whether the abx or something else was responsible.
Craig, not ALL multiple sclerosis cases are infectious in origin. However, a scary bunch of them are.
People can improve drastically even though there is no reduction in lesion burden (as in my case).
Here is some really excellent stuff -- an MS forum for people treating MS with antibiotics. Note that not only is lyme implicated as an infectious cause, but frequently chlamydia pneumonia:
Why, you may ask, with so many people seeing improvement, aren't our neurologists all over it???
Funny -- that very question is discussed at length in the forum above.
Here is what I believe -- based on personal experience and extensive research:
- Most neurologists tell you readily enough that they will not consider lyme in a differential diagnosis because they did an ELISA, which came back negative.
Period.
End of discussion.
Most neurologists have no idea that even the prestigious Johns Hopkins declared the ELISA to miss up to 70% of patients positive for lyme.
It is unfortunately still their choice of test.
I should know.
It takes a REALLY good clinician to distinguish lyme from MS. The mindset of neurologists is "auto-immune" and that's that.
Hopefully one day, like the revolution in treating ulcers, change will come. In the interim, it's painfully slow and usually met with hostility.
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
"It takes a REALLY good clinician to distinguish lyme from MS. The mindset of neurologists is "auto-immune" and that's that."
I agree that there is a distinction, and that most regular doctors don't want to even utter the word Lyme. I also have no problems with the words "possibly", "may", etc. Again, my problem is when people take the word "may", and make it "does".
I do think too however, that the medical world does deserve "some" credit, and that if the entire medical community felt abx was the ultimate "cure" for MS, there would be a mad run on abx by all neuros.
I don't claim to have the answers, but then again, according to the data out there, neither does anyone else.
-------------------- Craig Posts: 207 | From Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: Nov 2007
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lymebytes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11830
posted
There is a quite famous LLMD who has written books and he believes MS IS untreated Lyme Disease.
I think many of us got the "ms" diagnosis, I was one of them, but the symptoms didn't fit exactly and my gut told me no.
MS treatment usually consists of the use of corticosteroids, if you have Lyme and that possibility is likely, corticosteroids will be extremely detrimental to you.
If it were me, I would try Lyme treatment first. I'd try going on antibiotics and if a "herx" occurred I could safely assume it is Lyme Disease.
There are nine known Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific KDA Western Blot antibodies (bands): 18 23 30 31 34 37 39 83 and 93.
Only ONE of these Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific bands is needed to confirm that there is serological evidence of exposure to the Borrelia burgdorferi spirochete and can confirm a clinical diagnosis of Lyme disease.
Chlamydia Pneumonia bacteria is also suspected in MS and other auto-immune diseases. There are a group of people treating specifically for this bacteria for MS.
As far as I know MS patients do not usually experience a Herx while treating. I have not investigated this thoroughly, but it would be an important distinction if it is truly the case.
The Herx is not a common reaction to killing most strains of bacteria. It is pretty unique to treating Lyme disease.
I agree that if a Lyme treatment is helping, you could use that to determine what you are treating.
The simplest way to find out would be to buy some Cat's Claw or Cumanda and ramp up on it. If you herx, I would say the odds of it being anything else than Lyme would be remote. Of course no doctor would ever consider this as evidence, even though it is likely one of the most accurate ways of diagnosing Lyme, in my opinion.
If it turns out to be MS, you should seriously consider Low Dose Naltrexone. It halts progression of the disease in most cases.
D Bergy
Posts: 2919 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sue vG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3143
posted
I have white matter lesions in my brain but the MRI was 7 years ago, and it's clear that I do not have MS. The neuro assured me nothing, but noted that my white spots are dispersed, whereas they can form clusters inMS, particularly around a structure known as the corpus callosum (sp).
So, don't panic and good luck!
Posts: 1307 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
"MS treatment usually consists of the use of corticosteroids, if you have Lyme and that possibility is likely, corticosteroids will be extremely detrimental to you.
If it were me, I would try Lyme treatment first. I'd try going on antibiotics and if a "herx" occurred I could safely assume it is Lyme Disease."
That tends to go further to prove the point that Lyme is Lyme, and MS is MS. If corticosteroids are the typical protocol for MS, but detrimental to Lymies, that would indicate a distinction in the two.
Again, I'm no doctor/expert, nor have I ever claimed to be. I'm just drawing logical "assumptions" from the data. I believe in reading reports/studies as they are written, which tend to include words like "may", "possibly", "could", etc. That tells me, that there is no definitive proof of anything.
However, if I'm afflicted with any of these terrible things, I'm game for trying anything [well, almost] if it means possibly getting better.
-------------------- Craig Posts: 207 | From Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Except that the point of the corticosteroids is to reduce inflammation - that's what lessens the neurological symptoms stemming from the spinal/brain lesions.
It will do that no matter whether the lesions are from Lyme or some other indeterminate cause (keeping in mind that multiple sclerosis simply means you have multiple lesions of no known cause).
Unfortunately, the steroids can also weaken your immune system, which could create a cycle of immediate relief that gives way to long-term worsening.
Likewise, abx continue to be studied for their anti-inflammatory properties - which could explain why an individual would see improvement whether they had Lyme or MS. With the benefit of the abx not worsening MS or Lyme.
Posts: 39 | From wdc | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
"Unfortunately, the steroids can also weaken your immune system, which could create a cycle of immediate relief that gives way to long-term worsening."
Not to be nit-picky, but if both abx and corticosteroids reduce inflammation, but corticosteroids cause long-term problems with Lymies and not MS patients, wouldn't that still prove a distinction? Or are the steroids known to cause problems in the long run with MS patients as well?
-------------------- Craig Posts: 207 | From Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: Nov 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
Laura,
No worries at all. I should have been clearer
Now, people with HIV have a far better chance to live healthier lives if treated early on. We have come a long way there.
My mom did die in '84, just one week after the HIV dx but she was at the end of her journey by then. What put her into a coma and sped her death was the inability of her liver to handle drugs. And the hospital pumped her full of tylenol-3, which had zero effect on her pain but can really damage a liver.
So, that is part of why I'm a huge fan of liver protection and support. No one ever heard of milk thistle back then.
She also had had hepatitis several times in her life, so her liver had much damage. It just couldn't filter out much at all. The unidentified infection also left her body - and spirit - alone to handle all that and in the dark.
Looking back, I know she was very ill for a long time. But, because she got pretty drunk very easily, we all just thought she drank too much. Drinking did not help, of course, but I think she was self-medicating. She did not have any of the support measures that we have now.
She never, ever, said she felt bad or was in any pain - other than when dx with RA (rheum. arth.). That could well have been a warning sign to look further and learn more about self-care.
Injuries/surgery from a traffic accident in '65 set her off with liver trouble from the pain drugs - and doctors did not tell her not to drink with the meds back then. And we think we are in the dark now!
[Safe driving plea: the person who rammed into us as a stop light KNEW his brakes were bad and drove anyway. Please do not drive when you know you or your car is not up to it. The ramifications can be huge and long-lasting for entire families.]
Looking back, I wish I had known more. I could have been a better help. But I had just been dx with "probable lupus" and could barely function myself. And I wrongly believed the doctors when they say "nothing" in response to my question of if there was anything I could do about it.
For all the junk on the web, we are fortunate, at least, to be able to research more easily than a generation before us because, as we all know, there is much uncover and much to learn.
posted
Craig, I'm willing to bet that the steroids DO cause problems for MS patients [at least the ones who really have Lyme!].
It could be the reason some go downhill very quickly, while other MS patients live a pretty good life. [comparatively speaking]
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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daise
Unregistered
posted
In my mind, I was getting MS.
However, by doing Lyme and co-infection treatment I am stopping the process.
Steroids are absolutely not to be prescribed for MS, Lyme, nor for anything. Steroids are deadly (except tiny doses of BIOIDENTICAL hormones.)
Autoimmune disease is blamed for over 80 diseases: MS, hypothyroidism, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, juvenile diabetes, PCOS etc.
In my opinion, autoimmune disease probably doesn't exist.
Most doctors use that name as a catch-all for a great mystery they don't ever want to figure out--so take these million dollar drugs and shut-up because there are profits to be made.
It's profits over patients.
In my opinion, it's much more likely that pathogens are at work and the body reacts to those. That's straightforward.
Another thing: any hint that autoimmune disease does not exist brings a tirade from the medical profession. What--we can't question?
I say, when the body sends out antibodies they are not autoimmune (hard to turn off,) rather they are desperate attempts by our body to send forth an army to destroy germs.
But the army can't enter our cells. That's where some pathogens reside.
Not to destroy its own tissue (autoimmune disease) as conventional medicine claims. The problem is all too real: pathogens!
That's one more reason Lyme and co-infections are usually dismissed: they upset the huge health industry catering to the over 80 "autoimmune" patients and making a WHOOPING profit.
posted
One more question then...why with Lyme do we read stories about complete eradication and full recovery, yet the same can't be said for such diseases as MS? I've read where MS goes into remission, but once you have it, you always have it.
-------------------- Craig Posts: 207 | From Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: Nov 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
The objectives of this article are to cover issues related to Lyme disease that are not even-handedly addressed in the current literature. It will:
1 Present a practical approach for making the diagnosis of neuroborreliosis,
2 Explore the other side of the post-Lyme syndrome (i.e. the likelihood of chronic ongoing infection),
3 Discuss the relationship between MS and Lyme,
4 Critique the current regimens published for treating neuroborreliosis, and
5 Present my own approach which may differ from some leading authorities.
``Anyone who, in discussion, relies upon authority uses not his understanding but rather his memory.''
--Leonardo da Vinci, Notebooks (c. 1500)
It is hoped this data will provide the reader with a broader understanding of neuroborreliosis so that he or she may better use current and evolving knowledge for clinical decision making.
--
full two page article at link above. Be sure to see the second page, it can be overlooked.
quote:Originally posted by CraigC: One more question then...why with Lyme do we read stories about complete eradication and full recovery, yet the same can't be said for such diseases as MS? I've read where MS goes into remission, but once you have it, you always have it.
Well, maybe because they {MS patients} never receive treatment that will eradicate it. True MS really doesn't have any treatments that work.
If I were dxd with MS, I'd give abx a try, that's for sure! [but if I only believe my duck doctors, then I won't even try abx....right??]
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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daise
Unregistered
posted
Hi Craig,
Steroids absolutly cause terrible problems for those with MS and anything else. No doubt about it.
The medical literature is full of this information. Why can it be prescribed? Because this is America, land of bawdy profits.
You wrote: "One more question then...why with Lyme do we read stories about complete eradication and full recovery, yet the same can't be said for such diseases as MS? I've read where MS goes into remission, but once you have it, you always have it."
When the patient is PROPERLY treated for Lyme they usually eliminate their signs and symptoms to a high degree or fully. Sadly, a small number do not.
This could be due to negligence by the ducks for years or decades, prior treatment for misdiagnosed illnesses, unresolved damage done from Lyme and co-infections and other things no one understands--yet.
Lyme can temporarily go into remission, but without PROPER treatment, Lyme WILL rear its ugly head again.
No one who is treated with prednisone only and/or the conventionl million dollar MS drugs is ever cured: doesn't happen.
kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 3410
posted
I had the same questions as you did.
I do not think the research is there yet to tell the difference if the brain lesions are MS related or lyme related.
I went to the MSWatch site.
I recall asking on the ask the doctor section.
He really did not have an answer for me.
I also noticed the lesions come and go while on the MS site and with my MRI's.
Thsi was before treatment for either.
Since my lyme doc was dx with MS and treated for it for 5 years before finding out it was really lyme....he turned out to be a good source.
I did not know this about him when I first went to see him. I did ask him how the medical field knows the difference between lyme and MS.
Because I was still sitting on the fence.
I feel like I may have all ready posted on this now.
Going to check. sorry if I have.
Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002
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kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 3410
posted
Noticed we are preaching to the choir here. So sent you a PM in case you have not figured this site out yet...might help and might not.
Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
"When the patient is PROPERLY treated for Lyme they usually eliminate their signs and symptoms to a high degree or fully. Sadly, a small number do not."
If they eliminate their signs and symptoms "fully", I would call that eradicated. If the same can't be said for MS, despite the method of treatment chosen [not talking about remission periods], I would again say that there is a difference.
Again, I'm not advocating not trying abx [especially if it's me who has it], but I'm just saying that there seems to be evidence that these two diseases are in fact distinct [IMO].
-------------------- Craig Posts: 207 | From Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: Nov 2007
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