lymewreck36
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posted
Hi folks:
Some of you out there are so well researched....I'm wondering if you can shed some light on a question I have.
How does being overweight impede getting rid of lyme, or getting rid of neuro toxins?
Does anyone know.
Since I am completely unable to go into remission, and keep having reactions to antibiotics, I had to wonder if I am building up toxins, and that could be the reason for the reaction.
And I had to wonder if "fat" helps spirochetes out in some way.
I did run across an article recently that said spirochetes like cholesteral, and it made me wonder.
Anyone know anything about this?
mary
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Peacesoul
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An obese body is toxic in itself. I wouldn't see an illnes being fought effectively this way.
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TerryK
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I agree with peace, toxicity is a cause of weight gain. This also came from my ND.
The new book out by Dr. S. states that 80% of chronic lyme patients are overweight or obese.
Leptin resistance and insulin resistance are factors.
Fat cells release cytokines which can cause inflammation and at least for me, inflammation causes fluid retention ie more weight gain in the form of fluid.
Terry I'm not a doctor.
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Keebler
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First off, we are not talking about folks who eat junk food all day. We are talking about people here who have lyme and (I assume) eat healthfully, as that is required of whatever treatment protocol we choose.
quote above "An obese body is toxic in itself." end quote
More correctly: in chronic lyme, obesity can be a result of a toxic illness. Even with the very best nutritional habits, a lyme patient is as risk of obesity due to several factors.
The first thing to do is the smash the stigma about size. Just ditch all our preconceptions. If someone injures an ankle and it swells, do we criticize that ankle ? No. Well, science has shown that infections can severely damage the endocrine system.
Lyme, and other chronic stealth infections, can cause severe problems with the HPA axis - [hypothalamus- pituitary-adrenal]
The endocrine system just cannot support energy as it did pre-lyme. And pushing it makes it even worse, even dangerous without proper support, only part of which we have figured out.
And, adding medically-justified steroids can make the infection worse. Few, very few doctors are trained to treat a lyme patient with severe HPA problems.
However, as the infection can target the HPA, treating the infection(s) is key while also supporting the HPA as safely as possible (and we are still in the dark there).
The important thing to remember is that crash dieting and over exertion can be dangerous. This is not as it appears. Not at all. (Assuming, of course that everyone has good health habits.)
Unless someone has twinkies all day long, the obesity may the result of an infection and its damage to organs needed to regulate our entire system.
Gentleness is required. Never exercise to the point of exhaustion and be sure to eat frequent small healthy meals.
Nutrition is still key. Rest, too, if the adrenals are to heal. Just the right amount of movement . . . and NO judging.
Now, not all heavy people are unhealthy just as all of them don't have a twinkie diet. Some folks just carry more weight for various reasons. We have been so brainwashed by the images of paper thin models and actors.
On the otherhand, the twinkies are still flying off the grocery shelves and obesity is a huge problem around the world. But we must be careful not to generalize or judge. I also wonder if may of those who do have the twinkie diets aren't trying to balance out a wacked ot adrenal system and go for instant energy.
It's not easy, but we still must be as kind and understanding about this as if it were a swollen ankle. As detailed in post above, puffiness - or swelling - of the body can be a result of inflammation.
Also, the fatigue may actually be our heart's way of protecting us from over-exertion. Dr. Paul Cheney and Dr. Arnold Peckerman have much to say about that with CFS patients and it may apply to lyme patients, as well.
I'll come back later and post some of that but, in the meantime, anyone can search for articles by them about cardiac impedance.
Without specific methods to support the mitochrondia, there can be damage from pushing harder and harder (which used to work for us).
www.drmyhill.co.uk - Dr. Myhill gets into that area as well as the other authors above.
We have so much to learn.
A kinder, gentler people we must be in order to understand, accept and work through all this. The endocrine system is small in collective size, however, a huge importance to our health and survival. Mitochondrial dysfunction must be addressed as well.
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[ 07. March 2008, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Carol in PA
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Ahh, Keebler, words of wisdom.
One thing I've read, is that mild thyroid problems can prevent people from losing extra weight.
I'm fairly convinced that Lyme is the cause of most thyroid problems.
Also, the transfats found in french fries and baked goods do terrible things to our bodies.
I think that for many people, obesity was set in motion by this aspect of their diet.
Carol
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adamm
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Hmm...I've actually lost weight since getting Lyme.
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Peacesoul
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Keebler, you know I love ya and love your insight, but in this case, you are not correct.
First off, there is SO little research done on lyme so we have no idea what lyme can cause, but I can bet the farm, a bacteria infection will not cause obesity. We're treating lyme with unknown facts.
I'm not talking a little overweight but obesity. Obesity is caused by lack of movement (exercise) and high caloric intake. No, not all obese people eat junk, but they eat more calories than they burn.
The theory that obesity may be caused by a thyroid issue or an illnes, normally comes from obese people who need to justify their addiction.
Obesity (again not talking about some extra weight) is an addiction just as sex, alcohol and drugs are an addiciton.
There is not one study anywhere in this world that will prove obesity is caused by any medical condition.
I work with a man who's 525 lbs. He is that weight b/c he eats all day. He drinks 4 x 4 lts of soft drink a day, can eat an extra large pizza to himself. I see him eat all day at work. He tells me his weight is caused from his heart condition.
Excuses are not reality. Addicts normally find any excuse not to face their reality
yes I worked in addiction.
And I love all people, including obese people. My sister was 300 lbs when she was 15. I saw her suffer her entire young life. her and I are now 41 yrs old and I am happy to say she is no longer obese. She joined a gym and stopped making excuses....just saying
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Greatcod
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Never had weight problems until I got Lymed. I put on weight over a period of time simply because I ate too much. And I ate too much because eating was about the only source of pleasure left in my life.
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1Bitten2XShy
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Not ALL obese individuals eat non-stop.
There are medical conditions that make it extremely difficult to loose weight. Yes, thyroid is one of them.
Whether Lyme makes it harder to loose weight, or causes one to gain weight is I think for the most part unknown.
However, being ill with Lyme certainly makes is VERY difficult to exercise, hence, making it very easy to gain weight WITHOUT eating as PeaceSoul seems to think all obese people do.
Kudos Keebler for your insightfullness and compassion.
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Peacesoul
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quote:Originally posted by 1Bitten2XShy: Not ALL obese individuals eat non-stop.
There are medical conditions that make it extremely difficult to loose weight. Yes, thyroid is one of them.
Whether Lyme makes it harder to loose weight, or causes one to gain weight is I think for the most part unknown.
However, being ill with Lyme certainly makes is VERY difficult to exercise, hence, making it very easy to gain weight WITHOUT eating as PeaceSoul seems to think all obese people do.
Kudos Keebler for your insightfullness and compassion.
Look, I am not trying to start an arguement nor do I want the Lymenet Bashing Team to rear their ugly heads......I'm stating facts.
I'm all about facts.
Tell me, how does someone who is 500 lbs get to be so big if they don't consume the cals to stay that big?
A thyroid or kidney condition will cause moderate weight gain, certainly not make anyone 500 lbs.
TerryK
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Member # 8552
posted
Peace, I happen to agree with Keebler so we will have to agree to disagree. The first year of my decent into severe illness I ate 600 calories per day (I was obsessive about it), worked out 3+ X's per week (heavy aerobics) and gained 70 lbs. I lived it!!!! It is NOT an excuse!!!
When I went back to a research hospital in NY and was hospitalized for 10 days so that they could try to determine what was wrong with me they determined that I have a fluid problem. I don't look like I have a fluid problem but I do. The US expert told me that doctors often tell people that they are eating too much because they do not understand that people can actually gain a LOT of weight that is NOT due to overeating or a lack of willpower or lack of exercise.
I now have another doctor telling me that I am overeating. My husband and I laugh (what else can we do) because I am a sparse eater. No excuse, just a fact.
I hope you understand that medical science does not know everything there is to know about weight related to lyme disease or other illnesses. Have you read Dr. S's information about weight gain caused by biotoxin illness and how it is impossible to lose it without specific interventions?
I can tell you that I find your message upsetting because I am someone who looks like I eat much more than I do. My mother and sister, both with lyme disease, have the same problem.
I expect there is a reason why 80% of lyme patients are overweight or obese and most of it probably does not have to do with overeating although I'm sure it does for some people of course.
Hopefully you are one who this does not happen to. I believe I was sick for a long time before I developed this problem. For several years prior to the huge weight gain I had great difficulty keeping weight on.
There But for the Grace of God go I and all that.... Terry
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Keebler
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posted
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Peacesoul, the connections posed in my previous post regarding the adrenal and endocrine function are absolutely CORRECT - for myself (and, therefore, probably for others). I have the tests to prove it.
We have way more to learn, but we have to learn more about adrenal and mitochondria if we are to get past generalizing.
We are not talking about the guy you know but about many others. I eliminated the twinkie crowd in my previous post. Besides, we cannot know all that goes on with them and it is none of our business. I do not advocate an unhealthy diet, I know lots of skinny people who eat horrible diets, but it just doesn't show.
Adrenal and mitochrondial stuff is mighty. Until one reads all that and understands it they are prone to jump to conclusions. Stress and lack of sleep can also contribute to obesity. Again, much more to learn.
You say we have much to learn, well, then, it is simply over the top to declare obesity as an addiction for every obese person, which is what your statement does. Do you declare everyone with fatigue lazy ? It's about the same conclusion. And it's terribly erroneous.
You have many particular subsets within any group.
My diet for decades - actually my whole life - has been superb. Simply superb. Really even less calories than I should.
My endocrine tests are in the gutter. the doctor who did those wondered why I'm not dead. But I'm still heavy. He explained it.
It is not because of any addiction.
So, therefore, I must conclude that there may be others out there who are taking good care of themselves, but their bodies don't have what they need to be on the cover of running magazine.
Sure, it would be great if I could exercise more. But, ya know, passing out really is not a good plan. I have to listen to my body. First, I have to be safe.
Again, understanding and adjusting expectations with the hope of a better life.
School of Clinical Medical Sciences, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.
Obesity is associated with several endocrine diseases, including common ones such as hypothyroidism and polycystic ovarian syndrome to rare ones such as Cushing's syndrome, central hypothyroidism and hypothalamic disorders.
The mechanisms for the development of obesity vary in according to the endocrine condition.
Hypothyroidism is associated with accumulation of hyaluronic acid within various tissues, additional fluid retention due to reduced cardiac output and reduced thermogenesis.
The pathophysiology of obesity associated with polycystic ovarian syndrome remains complex as obesity itself may simultaneously be the cause and the effect of the syndrome.
Net excess of androgen appears to be pivotal in the development of central obesity. In Cushing's syndrome, an interaction with thyroid and growth hormones plays an important role in addition to an increased adipocyte differentiation and adipogenesis.
This review also describes remaining rare cases: hypothalamic obesity due to central hypothyroidism and combined hormone deficiencies.
PMID: 18230905 [PubMed - in process]
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Peacesoul
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Keebler and Terry are you obese, or are you overweight? And even if lyme or any other illness causes weight gain, what % of obese people are obese from illness or overeating?
I can assure you, it's probably .0005 % from illness, if in fact illness causes obesity.
I've met many obese people and not one was a 600 cal a day eater. I'm not saying your beliefs are incorrect, I'm saying it's not the norm. No where near the norm.
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Peacesoul
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Cushing's syndrome is a VERY rare illness and yes causes bloating and weight gain.
But again, ask yourself the % of people are obese, which % are caused from addiction and which % from a very rare illness.
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TerryK
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posted
Don't want to hijack the thread but I thought this was interesting a appropriate to the discussion.
Fat Factors - New York Times "In exchange for agreeing to be hospitalized for three months so scientists could study them, Janet and the other obese research subjects (30 in all) each received a free intestinal bypass. During the three months of presurgical study, the dietitian on the research team calculated how many calories it should take for a 5-foot-6-inch woman like Janet to maintain a weight of 348. They fed her exactly that many calories -- no more, no less. She dutifully ate what she was told, and she gained 12 pounds in two weeks -- almost a pound a day....
Now a third wave of obesity researchers are looking for explanations that don't fall into the relatively easy ones of genetics, overeating or lack of exercise. They are investigating what might seem to be the unlikeliest of culprits: the microorganisms we encounter every day."
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Peacesoul
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quote:Originally posted by TerryK: Don't want to hijack the thread but I thought this was interesting a appropriate to the discussion.
Fat Factors - New York Times "In exchange for agreeing to be hospitalized for three months so scientists could study them, Janet and the other obese research subjects (30 in all) each received a free intestinal bypass. During the three months of presurgical study, the dietitian on the research team calculated how many calories it should take for a 5-foot-6-inch woman like Janet to maintain a weight of 348. They fed her exactly that many calories -- no more, no less. She dutifully ate what she was told, and she gained 12 pounds in two weeks -- almost a pound a day....
Now a third wave of obesity researchers are looking for explanations that don't fall into the relatively easy ones of genetics, overeating or lack of exercise. They are investigating what might seem to be the unlikeliest of culprits: the microorganisms we encounter every day."
Did they have these "studies" excersing daily? Once somoene gains a large amount of weight, their metabolism is slower than a snail and consumption alone would not make much of a diff. Also feeding a body those few calories puts the body in starvation mode. In that case, the body will not burn cals but will actually add.
also to add, when the body goes into starvation mode (which less than 400 cals a day is), the body holds on to weight as a survival mechansim
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Keebler
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posted
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By saying, Cushing's is rare . . . and just ask yourself of the percentages, that is truly jumping to conclusions.
How many people can't get the proper work-ups. We don't even have all the tests right now. And many of the treatments involve steroids for life.
Uh . . . I think it's best to assume someone is innocent, not guilty. So much to learn.
By saying, Cushing's is rare . . . and just ask yourself of the percentages, that is truly jumping to conclusions.
How many people can't get the proper work-ups. We don't even have all the tests right now. And many of the treatments involve steroids for life.
Uh . . . I think it's best to assume someone is innocent, not guilty. So much to learn.
Terry, thanks for the posts. Very interesting.
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You know, nothing is concrete and I get that. There is a lot of unknown, My point is simply, the majority of obesity is caused from intake and lack of movement.
Not trying to insult anyone who is struggling with weight b/c I know the horrible effects that obesity causes.
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Keebler
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posted
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The majority of obesity cannot be said to be anyone's fault. The majority, again, generalizes. It's like saying the majority of fatigued patients are unwilling to participate.
Regarding any group: We don't know their stories, their tests. We do not know.
What helps people here is to know that, if they are doing the best they can and cannot achieve their weight goals, there maybe much more to it that meets the eye.
And, they should know that they don't have to take any judgmental attitude from others who do not know what they are talking about. It happens.
This should be a judgment-free zone in all matters.
Viruses and the neuroendocrine system - 302 abstracts
=====================================
Among those:
Ann Biol Clin (Paris). 1999 May;57(3):291-9. Links
Viruses and the neuroendocrine system: model of murine obesity induced by cerebral infection by canine distemper virus
[Article in French]
Bernard A, Akaoka H, Giraudon P, Belin M. Inserm U. 433, Neurobiologie exp�rimentale et physiopathologie, Facult� de m�decine RTH Laennec, rue Guillaume-Paradin, 69372 Lyon cedex 08, France.
It is currently well established that the nervous, endocrine and immune systems inter-communicate using biologically active soluble factors, synthesised and
produced by these three systems themselves (e.g. immunomodulator effect of hormones, effect of substances secreted by immune cells on endocrine function.).
In addition, these systems jointly express receptors for hormones, peptides, growth factors and cytokines. Immuno-neuroendocrine interactions therefore underlie physiological processes and their deregulation can result in various pathological states.
By entering into complex relationships with the specialized and differentiated cells of these three systems viruses can alter inter-cellular communication and result in the appearance of pathological processes directly linked to these disturbances.
In order to understand the role of viruses in the genesis of neuroimmunoendocrine pathologies, we have developed a cerebral infection model using canine distemper virus (CDV).
In infected mice, this paramyxovirus, closely related to the human measles virus, induces early neurological pathologies (encephalitis) which are associated with active viral replication.
Mice surviving the acute phase of infection exhibit motor deficits (paralysis and turning behaviour) or obesity during the viral persistence phase, despite the fact that the virus is no longer detectable.
The obesity is characterised by hyperinsulinaemia, hyperleptinaemia and hyperplasia of the adipocytes, associated with decreased expression of the OB-Rb hypothalamic leptin receptor and modulated expression of hypothalamic monoamines and neuropeptides.
These results support the viral "hit and run" theory, since the initial viral impact in the hypothalamus may be the origin of the changes in later immunoneuroendocrine communication.
Thus, certain human neurodegenerative or neuroendocrine diseases may have a previous viral infection aetiology without it being possible to clearly identify the agent responsible.
Could viruses contribute to the worldwide epidemic of obesity? Atkinson RL.
Obetech Obesity Research Center, Richmond, VA, USA.
The prevalence of obesity in children increased rapidly starting about 1980 in both developed and developing countries. Studies of changes in diet and physical activity, television watching, and food advertisements on television suggest that these are not sufficient to explain the epidemic.
The pattern of rapid spread is suggestive of an infectious origin. The concept of virus-induced obesity is not new.
Eight viruses have been shown to cause obesity in animals and there is evidence for virus-induced obesity in humans.
Recent evidence on animal and human adenoviruses suggests that these adenoviruses may infect adipocytes to alter enzymes and transcription factors resulting in accumulation of triglycerides and differentiation of preadipocytes into mature adipocytes.
The E4orf1 gene of Ad-36 has been shown to be responsible for the adipogenic effect. It appears that a portion of the worldwide epidemic of obesity since 1980 could be due to infections with human adenoviruses.
PMID: 18278631
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[ 05. June 2008, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Peacesoul
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Just so you know, these were tests done on mice. Mice or any animal for that matter have little or no gentic similarities to humans.
Animal testing is preliminary and thus follows human trials.
Again, the main cause for obesity is lack of movement and caloric intake.
You can throw all the on line studies you like on this thread. I worked in medical research for 8 yrs and worked with obesity.
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Keebler
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posted
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If people who have certain infections exercise hard, it can damage their heart.
--------------------------------
[Post-polio expert] Dr. [Richard] Bruno points out that physical over-activity is the biggest cause of post-polio symptoms. [3]
Chronic fatigue syndrome: inflammation, immune function, and neuroendocrine interactions.
Klimas NG, Koneru AO.
University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, 1201 NW 16th Street, VA Medical Center, 200 BMRC, 6th Floor, Miami, FL 33125, USA.
Investigations into the underlying cause of chronic fatigue syndrome have advanced the field considerably in the past year. Gene microarray data have led to a better understanding of pathogenesis.
Recent research has evaluated genetic signatures, described biologic subgroups, and suggested potential targeted treatments.
Acute viral infection studies found that initial infection severity was the single best predictor of persistent fatigue. Genomic studies showed that persistent cases express Epstein Barr virus-specific genes and demonstrate abnormalities of mitochondrial function.
Studies of immune dysfunction extended observations of natural killer cytotoxic cell dysfunction of the cytotoxic T cell through quantitative evaluation of intracellular perforins and granzymes.
Other research has focused on a subgroup of patients with reactivated viral infection.
These advances should result in targeted therapies that impact immune function, hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis regulation, and persistent viral reactivation.
PMID: 18177602 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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last line: about the HPA axis . . . that is just one control of weight and energy (that could permit safe exercise if infection were NOT present).
The majority of obesity cannot be said to be anyone's fault. The majority, again, generalizes. It's like saying the majority of fatigued patients are unwilling to participate.
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Incorrect again. What is the main concern right now in the US? Obesity, especially amongst kids. How much obesity do you see in European countries? Not much right? Don't Europeans suffer the same illness as the Americans?
The majority of obesity is self induced.
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Peacesoul
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by the way. I was VERY overweight and was dx with CFS and Lupus 13 yrs ago until my lyme dx last Aug. I was sleeping 17 hrs a day. Once I changed my eating habits and started, no pushed myself to move, I lost a ton of weight and you know what, I was symptom free for 8 yrs.
Not saying everyone can do this, but I stopped making excuses to not getting well.
Listen, there is a lot of coddling with illness and that's great that people comfort each other, but sometimes tough live is needed. My best friend was dx with 3 months to live with CML (Leukemia) and after a yr of worse meds than us Lyme patients can ever even image, she went back to school and went to the gym to work out. She is now 3 months away from being a PHD cancer reseacher and in full remission. When I was dx, I lost my mind. She did not join my pitty party and would not coddle me. She used her practical magic on me. She didn't make excuses as to why she can't My neighbor has inoperable stomach cancer and does chemo 3 times a week. He's down from 200 to 100 lbs. A 6'1 man. The other two days he's not in chemo, he works out in the hosp gym.
See my point......the more excuses one makes, the less chance for recovering.
You can throw all the studies you want at me, the bottom line is, it's up to the person how bad they want to get well or how much they enjoy the suffereing.
Read a The New Earth my Eckhart Tolle and stop reading studies.
You can read my friend Sue's story here.. I hope this inspires some of you
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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Any statement that generalizes poses risk. It's the generalizing that is caustic.
If even just one person with infection decides on a "tough love" approach as suggested, if done without proper treatment, it could be very dangerous.
Information about a person's own body, treatment for infections, and support of the cardiac and endocrine systems is vital to safety. And that's just part of it. As mentioned way above, we have so much to learn about the mitochrondia.
I used to teach CPR and, a few times, seemed to stumble upon people who had actually just passed out. I once held a young man in my arms who tried to "measure up" to others' idea of what he should look like.
His body just could not keep up with even normal activity. He died trying. In the middle of the street. After playing basketball with friends. He was 15 and average size. (edited to add: but he thought he was too "soft")
Who knows what was going on in his heart - or elsewhere. Later, a friend notified me that he had an endocrine disorder but refused to acknowledge it. Oh.
Serious illness can change a body. Learning the new owner's manual is a great idea.
That is not coddling. That is just smart. And good medicine.
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[ 07. March 2008, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Boomerang
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posted
My hubby has also lost weight with his illness.
Keebler, good posts.
Tis sad to see the lack of compassion some folks have. Posts: 1366 | From Southeast | Registered: Sep 2005
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Cass A
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posted
I find Lymenet posts most helpful when people post their own personal experiences and personal observations of people they actually know. If someone wants to state "most" or whatever, how many (2, 5, 10??) out of what number of people (4, 6, 15??) This accuracy helps others to look at all the data presented and make up their own mind about it.
Also helpful are actual studies that set out exactly how they were done, etc.
There are enough "generalizers" out there already!
For me personally, I had a wonderful diet system that worked for me (the Zone diet)--until I got Lyme. Then, my body temperature went sub-normal and wouldn't come up, and I gained weight. I added an exercize program in amongst all the other treatment, and this turned around somewhat. I'm still about 15 lbs overweight, in my opinion.
Best,
Cass A
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lymewreck36
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posted
Well, let me say first of all that I have NEVER asked a question in here or posted information and gotten 30 responses! wow. I'm amazed.
But I also have to say, that it is true that some people get thin from their illness and some people get larger, for different reasons.
I know that when I was misdiagnosed with Fibromyalgia, weight loss became increasingly elusive. Then, add on top of that taking elavil, and then a year later prozac after a still born child, and there was a very bad mix.
I gained tons of weight, but insisted that I didn't eat much more than when I was a trim 130 pounds of muscle pre-illness.
Then came two separate lyme infections and babesia undiagnosed, and I was tipping the scales.
I have an older sister my same size, and when she visits me, if I eat the amount of food she does, I become overwhelmed by the calories and start gaining weight again. I just can't eat what she does, and she is not ill and does not take medications. She also lives a very sedentary life style, so I can't claim she is more active.
Also, I have three slim daughters, and a slim husband. My household stocks itself with health in mind, low sugar diet, no sodas whatsoever, and home cooked balanced meals with fruit and vegees everyday. My children are required to have at least one large glass of milk every day, and eat fruit, and then they can drink water after that.
Here's the reason for that background information. I can eat the same amount as my 17 year old daughter who is a size 8/10, and I weight 100 pounds more than her, which was packed on as I became more and more bedridden and medicated.
That's the thing.
Now, my question wasn't really about why we are fat. O.K. Even if some people don't understand, because they are not fat, I need no "evidence based" explanations. I know what I live. Just as we with chronic lyme don't need "evidence based" explanations of the existence of chronic lyme. We know what we live.
My question was simply, once you are overweight, or FAT, does that provide a mechanism that prevents detoxing and lyme elimination?
Why, I wonder, do I keep having adverse reactions to my antibiotics, when the rest of my family, thin people in my home that have lyme, do not have these reactions?
Is my FATNESS preventing detox in some way?
Just looking at a possible cause and effect, I had to wonder.
Thin poeple always see the world as black and white, just as people who get lyme and are treated and it goes away don't think there is such a thing as chronic lyme. It is just an inherent persective based on life experience.
So, I'm not bent out of shape and defensive in any way about some comments.
It is also true that an overweight body is toxic, and it does mediate inflammation, which might be the mechanism that prevents detox? Just wondering.
It is a vicious cycle, obesity and this illness, combined with taking 10 different medications, and running out from under the dark cloud of depression on a regular basis.
Anyway, I'm not really wondering WHY I'm FAT, but if that fact might be part of WHY I have toxic reactions to medication, or why I cannot go into remission.
That's the scoop. I found all of your comments very interesting and will read through them again several times.
Thanks folks.
Mary
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lymewreck36
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posted
I do need to comment, now that I think about it, on the following previous remarks:
Listen, there is a lot of coddling with illness and that's great that people comfort each other, but sometimes tough live is needed. My best friend was dx with 3 months to live with CML (Leukemia) and after a yr of worse meds than us Lyme patients can ever even image, she went back to school and went to the gym to work out. She is now 3 months away from being a PHD cancer reseacher and in full remission. When I was dx, I lost my mind. She did not join my pitty party and would not coddle me. She used her practical magic on me. She didn't make excuses as to why she can't My neighbor has inoperable stomach cancer and does chemo 3 times a week. He's down from 200 to 100 lbs. A 6'1 man. The other two days he's not in chemo, he works out in the hosp gym.
See my point......the more excuses one makes, the less chance for recovering.
You can throw all the studies you want at me, the bottom line is, it's up to the person how bad they want to get well or how much they enjoy the suffereing
If there were a great degree of truth in the above bolded statements, then one would have to assume that all people that die of cancer actually enjoyed their illness so much they did not do the hard work to get better.
Really now!
Ludicrous. We all have different immune systems. We are like snowflakes, we human beings. Such generalizations, for a "scientific" mind, really do lack an understanding of this.
What do you think I say to my three lyme daughters when they forget to turn in a homework assignment at school. "That's o.k. honey,..you have lyme and the school should understand that?"
How rediculous.
NO. I want my tombstone to say "FIGHTER," and nothing else. And my most important legacy will be the one I leave to my children.
How do I want to equip them to live a life of lyme disease.
Here's what I tell them:
There are others with greater burdens. Our characters are marked, not by what we are stricken with, but by how we get on with it. What you give back to the world is HOW you get through it. Cry and ask for pity, and you'll be a lonely little person, won't you. Some people live in the cess pool of humanity, and carve out their joy. What will you do?
Mary
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Boomerang
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Wow Mary. Wise words for your children.
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JillF
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Several studies citing correlations between bad foods or sedentary habits and rising rates of obesity and type 2 diabetes have filled the news lately. The studies seem, at first glance, to confirm what "everyone knows" about why people are fat -- they eat too much "bad" food and exercise too little -- and what to do about it. But correlations can't hold water to sound clinical evidence.
While it's in our best interests to look past correlations for sounder studies and weigh them in light of the entire body of evidence, such studies aren't always easy to find. Like all food and health news, we typically only hear one side. And we almost never hear about the studies that disprove something or find something didn't work or isn't a health concern -- especially if they go against a popular belief.
However, studies disproving a concept are especially important and during the scientific process, ideas that have been disproven are thrown out and scientists move on to find the real explanations. But a classic earmark of pseudoscience ("false" science) is failing to abandon ideas and doggedly continuing to claim something is true or works regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
GUTS and DONALD
On the subject of the evils of sodas and snack foods, for example, here are a few new studies that barely made the news recently. Their negative findings were notably different from the popular axioms and yet they concur with a sizable body of such evidence.
Two different analyses from the Growing Up Today Study (GUTS), based at Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard Medical School in Boston, were released last month. GUTS is a databank of questionnaires about diet, lifestyle habits and health that were gathered from more than 16,000 children, 9 to 14 years of age. Their mothers are from the Nurses Health Study, the huge database of questionnaires gathered since 1976 from over 120,000 nurses. The study has the limitations inherent in population studies, but what makes these two studies from GUTS significant is that the researchers couldn't even find a connection between soda or snack (ice cream, candy, chips, sweet baked goods, etc.) consumption and weight among these kids after 3 years. In other words, fat children weren't eating more sweets than thin children.
What the GUTS research, led by Allison Field, did find, however, was that regardless of their overweight status, children who dieted gained significantly more weight compared to children who never dieted. This confirms another study these same researchers released last October which found the BMIs of girls who were frequent dieters versus those who never or rarely dieted were nearly 4 entire BMI points higher. This was after they accounted for all the other factors that could have explained the differences, including physical activity, television watching, etc. The researchers concluded their data suggest that dieting is not only ineffective but in the long-run may actually promote weight gain. And, indeed, clinical studies have confirmed just that.
Perhaps the most significant study to come out this month was the one that got the very least media attention. The results of the DONALD Study (Dortmund Nutritional Anthropometric Longitudinally Designed Study) were released from the Research Institute of Child Nutrition, Dortmund, Germany. This was a small cohort study on 228 nondieting children. The researchers themselves actually weighed the individual children and recorded their diets (the foods, amounts and eating occasions) at least ten times a year and followed them thusly for 17 years. They found that no identifiable dietary patterns during childhood or adolescence could explain their BMIs. While there were great differences in the children's diets, these differences were not related to their weights.
The GUTS and DONALD studies join a profusion of other studies, both clinical and epidemiological, over the past fifty years demonstrating that fat children and adults as a population normally eat exactly the same as thin people. And regardless of their diets, children will still naturally grow up to be a wide range of heights and body weights. "Multiple researchers, using a variety of methodologies, have failed to find any meaningful or replicable differences in the caloric intake or eating patterns of the obese compared to the non-obese to explain obesity," concluded David Garner, Ph.D. and Susan Wooley, Ph.D., for example, in their review of some 500 studies on weight in Clinical Psychology Review.
How Can This Be?
How can this be reconciled with the laws of thermodynamics? The findings seem at odds with what conventional wisdom might suggest to us about eating and weight gain.
One of the country's foremost obesity researchers, Jeffrey M. Friedman, M.D., head of the Laboratory of Molecular Genetics at Rockefeller University explains that the commonly-held simplistic belief that obesity is just a matter of eating too much and/or not exercising enough is "at odds with substantial scientific evidence illuminating a precise and powerful biologic system." According to his research and that of numerous others, obesity is the result of differences in biology and metabolism, not behavior, diet or the environment. Through their own volition, people can control their weight long-term to a very small degree. Even voluntary physical exercise has minimal effect, according to Friedman and Glenn Gaesser, PhD., exercise physiologist and obesity researcher at the University of Virginia. So, while better access to foods can account for some of the increases seen in the average height and weight of all people in developed countries -- 7 to 10 pounds in the U.S. since 1980s -- it's genetics and not the environment that accounts for the largest proportion of the differences in size among people, Friedman explains.
"The propensity to obesity is, to a significant extent, genetically determined," he says. Someone genetically predisposed to obesity "will become obese independent of their caloric intake" even when it's restricted to that of thin counterparts. "The heritability of obesity is equivalent to that of height and greater than that of almost every other condition that has been studied," Friedman states.
Negative studies disproving things "everybody knows" are important for leading us to sounder answers. The strongest research will never find proof of something that doesn't exist. Only pseudoscience can ever do that.
posted
When I was extremely sick with undiagnosed Lyme, I lost about 30 pounds in six weeks. Believe me, not stress related (at least not MENTAL stress). I was also totally unable to exercise at that time.
About three months after beginning abx, I started gaining like crazy. I gained about 40 pounds, leaving me about 20 over my ideal. For both the loss and the gain, there was no relation or reason for it based upon my inputs (food) and my outputs (exercise and activity). It's a relationship I know very well, having been a vigorous exerciser for over 30 years.
I'm exercising fully again (yay!) and am quite careful on nutrition; however, the additional weight isn't going anywhere. My system still feels quite 'off' and 'different' to me.
I do suspect my LD - or my abx treatment - or damage to my endocrine system - not sure WHAT - but feel certain it is realted to my illness and treatment.
I'm not obese, could lose the 20 for sure, but I think I look fine. It's more a question of health and personal expectations.
My LLMD has told me he has seen many bizarre weight flucuations, in short periods like 4 - 6 weeks.
At some point, I figure the weight will 'fall off' just like it 'fell on' (and fell off!) before, AS LONG AS I AM DOING ALL THE RIGHT THINGS. I also have an upcoming appt with a top endocrinologist, just in case there are any anomalies or problems hidden deeper in the mainly normal tes results I've had thus far.
And I do work hard on the detox.
otm
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Peacesoul:
I'm not talking a little overweight but obesity. Obesity is caused by lack of movement (exercise) and high caloric intake. No, not all obese people eat junk, but they eat more calories than they burn.
There is not one study anywhere in this world that will prove obesity is caused by any medical condition.
And I love all people, including obese people. My sister was 300 lbs when she was 15. I saw her suffer her entire young life. her and I are now 41 yrs old and I am happy to say she is no longer obese. She joined a gym and stopped making excuses....just saying
I'm not talking a little overweight but obesity. Obesity is caused by lack of movement (exercise) and high caloric intake. No, not all obese people eat junk, but they eat more calories than they burn.
I take offence to that statement. I have been overeight since 2 years old when Drs gave me something to gain weight which has never stopped even after stopping the suppliment whatever it was, secondly I exercized Ill bet more than you ever have . I not only lost the weight at least 3 times once during the beginning of lyme the others by no food to very very little and walking six miles a day and working out for 2 to 3 hrs every other day when not walking.
I also worked as a smokechaser for 9 years which I usually would fight at least 3 to 5 fires a day sometimes 10 or 11 a day then mark timber which both entaled up and down sidhills everyday.
While eating one meal a day.Didnt lose weight but maintained it where it was.
Now the one diet that does work is atkins modified to me which doing during lyme is very very hard on the body but Iam going to go back on after some problems subside ie rectal hemmroids.
There is not one study anywhere in this world that will prove obesity is caused by any medical condition.
Distribution of Borna disease virus in the brain of rats infected with an obesity-inducing virus strain. PMID: 10668894 PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE Thats one.
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Theres more
And I love all people, including obese people. My sister was 300 lbs when she was 15. I saw her suffer her entire young life. her and I are now 41 yrs old and I am happy to say she is no longer obese. She joined a gym and stopped making excuses....just saying
God loves your sister.
Stop making excuses THANKS FOR THE LOVE
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Ps I got the hemmroids from shovaling over a foot of snow. Nope no exercize there
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Now that I calmed down from the self rightous statements.
With me I know if I keep carbs down under 20% Ill lose weight. It takes effort a great deal of it especially when most people maintain at 30% or higher. In my case I know I maintain at around 20 to 25 %. I lose weight 20 % down to 10 or 15%.
not everyone is the same they are similar but not the same. I put this in here for people who need help.
Not condecending blanket statements.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
As far as I understand, Peace tells us that most of us CAN cope with lyme and company, as well as with overweight body problems using our inner strengths, our will. I can tell you for sure, if not exercising, not strengthening my spirit through physical exercises, I would either die or get to be a miserable disabled person.
Don't give up guys.
-------------------- ~From Russia with Lyme~ Posts: 34 | From Rostov-on-Don, Russia | Registered: Dec 2007
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
My daughter was a slight 98 pounds before she started getting ill.
When she got ill, it wasn't a few months later that she started putting on about 10-20 lbs a week!!!
Every specialist we were bounced to said, 'well, your appetite is healthy'. My 15 year old daughter would cry all the way home.
She ate no different than she did before, and kids at school were making fun of her or spreading rumors about pregnancy.
She would limit food, no carbs, sugars, try to exercise every day, and no change.
After one year of treatment, the weight started melting off of her.
Over the last year, she has lost 75 of the 80 she put on. SHE DID NOTHING DIFFERENT.
People will compliment her on losing the weight, and she is quick to say..'I did nothing to gain it, I did nothing to lose it, it's the stupid disease'.
Sometimes it IS out of our control.
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
quote:Originally posted by kelmo: My daughter was a slight 98 pounds before she started getting ill.
When she got ill, it wasn't a few months later that she started putting on about 10-20 lbs a week!!!
Every specialist we were bounced to said, 'well, your appetite is healthy'. My 15 year old daughter would cry all the way home.
She ate no different than she did before, and kids at school were making fun of her or spreading rumors about pregnancy.
She would limit food, no carbs, sugars, try to exercise every day, and no change.
After one year of treatment, the weight started melting off of her.
Over the last year, she has lost 75 of the 80 she put on. SHE DID NOTHING DIFFERENT.
People will compliment her on losing the weight, and she is quick to say..'I did nothing to gain it, I did nothing to lose it, it's the stupid disease'.
Sometimes it IS out of our control.
Amen
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
yes Kelmo, my personal experience was the same as your daughter (though still waiting for the melt away!) - bizarre weight loss & gain with no efforts or changes one way or the other on my part - had zero to do with me & all to do with LD -
otm
Posts: 314 | From east coast | Registered: Oct 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
Quote: 'I did nothing to gain it, I did nothing to lose it, it's the stupid disease'. end quote
Yep. x many.
=================
misconceptions: free; pervasive; dangerous
judgment: free; harmful; invisible form of pollution.
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
To get back to the original purpose of this thread, I've looked around and I find some people do say that lyme spirochetes love fat but I haven't found anything to prove it or show the mechanisms that are in play.
I do think that inflammation (which may partially be caused when one gains weight) could make it harder for abx or treatments to get into the tissues where lyme lives and could also make it hard for our body to get rid of dead bugs/debri/biotoxins. Also fat may have the same effect.
I will keep an eye out for anything definitive and post back if I find something.
Sorry this thread got off track but it is very frustrating when so many of us have had such a bad experience with weight issues that truly are beyond our control to be judged and blamed for our weight gain. My husband and I joke that I could survive for a very long time without eating a drop of food. This is one more devastating effect that this disease has on our bodies that is not recognized by non-lyme people.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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lymewreck36
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4395
posted
You got that right Terry! Gaining weight on cucumbers this week.
mary
Posts: 1032 | From North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Well, perhaps there are many contributing factors to obesity. I think too much food and not enough exercise is too simplistic.
The following info explores the viral connection (I wonder if other pathogens also contribute), the nervous system connection, and the gut flora connection.
This last one intrigues me as many of us have messed up gut flora due to antibiotic use. A lot of "food for thought" and research is continuing -- I tend to think it is a combination of factors that may differ with each individual.
***********
1: Mayo Clin Proc. 2007 Oct;82(10):1192-8 Viruses as an etiology of obesity. Atkinson RL.
Obetech Obesity Research Center, 800 E Leigh St, Suite 50, Richmond, VA 23219, USA. [email protected]
Obesity is a serious chronic disease that has numerous etiologies. The prevalence of obesity has increased dramatically since about 1980 in the United States and worldwide in both developed and developing countries. This rapid spread is compatible with an infectious origin.
This review discusses the 5 animal viruses and 3 human viruses that have been shown to cause obesity and examines the evidence to date for virus-induced obesity. The obesogenic animal viruses include canine distemper virus, Rous-associated virus type 7, Borna disease virus, scrapie agent, and SMAM-1.
The first 4 viruses attack the central nervous system to produce obesity. SMAM-1, an avian adenovirus from India, acts directly on adipocytes and is the only animal virus that is associated with human obesity.
The 3 human adenoviruses, adenovirus (Ad) 36, Ad-37, and Ad-5, that are associated with obesity also affect adipocytes directly.
These viruses stimulate enzymes and transcription factors that cause accumulation of triglycerides and differentiation of preadipocytes into mature adipocytes. Ad-5 and Ad-37 have been shown to cause obesity in animals.
Ad-36 has been studied the most and is the only human adenovirus to date that has been linked with human obesity. Ad-36 causes obesity in chickens, mice, rats, and monkeys and was present in 30% of obese humans and 11% of nonobese humans.
In twins discordant for infection with Ad-36, the infected twins were heavier and fatter than their cotwins.
The growing body of evidence demonstrating that viruses produce human obesity supports the concept that at least some of the worldwide epidemic of obesity in the past 25 years is due to viral infections.
PMID: 17908526 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] **********
Could viruses contribute to the worldwide epidemic of obesity? Atkinson RL.
Obetech Obesity Research Center, Richmond, VA.
The prevalence of obesity in children increased rapidly starting about 1980 in both developed and developing countries. Studies of changes in diet and physical activity, television watching, and food advertisements on television suggest that these are not sufficient to explain the epidemic.
The pattern of rapid spread is suggestive of an infectious origin. The concept of virus-induced obesity is not new.
Eight viruses have been shown to cause obesity in animals and there is evidence for virus-induced obesity in humans.
Recent evidence on animal and human adenoviruses suggests that these adenoviruses may infect adipocytes to alter enzymes and transcription factors resulting in accumulation of triglycerides and differentiation of preadipocytes into mature adipocytes.
The E4orf1 gene of Ad-36 has been shown to be responsible for the adipogenic effect. It appears that a portion of the worldwide epidemic of obesity since 1980 could be due to infections with human adenoviruses.
PMID: 18278631 [PubMed - in process *************
Study connects obesity with nervous system January 23, 2008
A discovery by Queen's biologists and their students sheds new light on the genetic roots of obesity - a condition that is increasing dramatically in North America and has been linked to heart disease, diabetes and some forms of cancer.
The new findings may also help to unlock the mystery of how our nervous systems control obesity.
Professors William Bendena and Ian Chin-Sang teamed up to work with tiny, transparent worms that have similar neurotransmitters as humans.
(Neurotransmitters are chemicals that transmit nerve impulses) The researchers discovered that when a specific nerve receptor is deleted, the worms lose interest in foraging for food, become slow-moving and accumulate fat at a much higher rate than normal, non-modified, worms.
``Although there is a wealth of scientific data currently being collected regarding classic brain neurotransmitters, it's still uncertain how neuron connections may be either stimulatory or inhibitory in various organisms,'' notes Dr. Bendena. ``Our breakthrough came when Dr. Chin-Sang localized the worm's receptor to one specific connecting nerve cell.''
The worms that had their receptor deleted showed no difference in behaviour from other, non-altered worms - until placed directly on food. Then they stopped their normal foraging behaviour, dramatically slowing their movements, and gained fat more quickly than worms with their receptors intact.
When extra copies of the receptor were added to the mutant worms, they became hyperactive and traveled large distances away from their food.
Drs. Bendena and Chin-Sang conclude that this type of receptor is an inhibitory switch within one connecting cell, and that worms defective in the receptor will gain fat.
``Such clearly affected behaviour and physiological changes have never been seen nor understood until this discovery,'' says Dr. Bendena. ``We hope that this will provide a basis for further research to unlock the mystery of the long-awaited nervous system connection to obesity.''
Also on the research team, from Queen's, are Jeff Boudreau, Tony Papanicolaou and Matt Maltby; and Stephen Tobe from University of Toronto.
Published on-line this week in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the study was partially funded by the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada (NSERC). *******
Reports by Gordon and colleagues explore the potential relationship between the types of microbiota found in the gut and the regulation of body weight.
Although there is no doubt that human genetics plays a large part in determining body weight, it is equally undisputed that the increase in prevalence of obesity over the past 25 years cannot be attributed to changes in the human genome.
The inference is that other factors are responsible, such as the availability of inexpensive, calorically dense foods, or the reduction in physical activity in our daily lives.
The work described by Gordon and colleagues raises the possibility that our gut bacteria are another factor that contributes to differences in body weight among individuals.Posts: 590 | From Canada | Registered: Oct 2007
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
wow, quite the commentary from all; just want to mark where i left off for tomorrow!
Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200
posted
Despite being cautioned not to read studies by "Peace" Soul, I think it is absolutely incumbent upon us to do exactly that.
Unexplained weight gain is so prevalent with this disease that Dr. Burrascano saw fit to discuss it in his Treatment Guidelines. He does not appear to be saying 'You are all a bunch of lazy Twinkie-eaters.'
quote:Activation of the inflammatory cascade has been implicated in blockade of cellular hormone receptors. One example of this is insulin resistance, which may partly account for the dyslipidemia and weight gain that is noted in 80% of chronic Lyme patients. Clinical hypothyroidism can result from receptor blockade and thus hypothyroidism can exist despite normal serum hormone levels. In addition to measuring free T3 and T4 levels, check basal A.M. body temperatures. If hypothyroidism is found, you may need to treat with both T3 and T4 preparations until blood levels of both are normalized.
It is very, VERY important not to judge.
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Thank you for posting that Michelle. I don't remember seeing that in the guidelines.
I've taken the guidelines into my fibro doctor which he promptly filed without reading. I'll call his attention to that information with the hopes that he will be a little more understanding and less prone to being critical of the patient.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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Thank You, to the other members who took thier time to research this subject and posted the important info!! I truely appreaciate it.
Something else thats "NOT, all in our heads", nor are we overeating or being lazy!!
-------------------- Take Care, DakotasMom01 Posts: 371 | From NJ | Registered: Dec 2007
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lymeinhell
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4622
posted
My money's on thyroid.. Why?? Because I am living it. When I was sick and my gi tract was trashed from abx, I lost 50 lbs... I was also put on a Beta Blocker for blood pressure issues and tacchyiacardia.
Fast forward 3 years no abx, and I've gained back half the weight. Despite working out 3x week minimum, staying on a carb restricted diet.. Thyroid has been tested every which way.
However, during last LLMD visit I brought it up again, and my LLMD had my try a thyroid support supplement, as hypothyroidism is a side effect from beta blockers...
And I've done nothing different but take this supplement twice a day, and I've lost a pant size in the last 3 weeks...
Blessed are those who expect nothing, for they shall not be disappointed. Posts: 2258 | From a better place than I was 11 yrs ago | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
So, I'm sure this will be viewed as a stupid question by any here that are more knowledgeable about this than me......
But, why the heck can't we just take amphetamine? They hand it out to college students like candy! I am not obese, but I went from almost dying from being to thin, to gaining 60 lbs in 8 yrs.
I eat very healthy, as I am also Celiac, and I'm sure probably almost too few calories some days.
Just a thought, Bunny
-------------------- 4 strong winds that blow lonely, 7 seas that run high.
All those things that don't change Come what may. Posts: 103 | From Dallas/ Fort Worth. TX | Registered: Dec 2007
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
bunnyfluff wrote: But, why the heck can't we just take amphetamine?
Amphetamine works for normal people because it supresses appetite but over-eating is not the problem. Usually when I'm gaining weight, my appetite is even lower than usual.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
amphetamine is far too taxing for the adrenal system. It's like giving chemicals to jolt a dysfunctional system and it can really burn out from the added stress.
amphetamine can really mess with the electrical circuitry, too.
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Kelmo, I was referring to the questions that were originally asked.
"How does being overweight impede getting rid of lyme, or getting rid of neuro toxins?"
"And I had to wonder if "fat" helps spirochetes out in some way."
"I did run across an article recently that said spirochetes like cholesteral, and it made me wonder.
Anyone know anything about this?"
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by TerryK: Kelmo, I was referring to the questions that were originally asked.
"How does being overweight impede getting rid of lyme, or getting rid of neuro toxins?"
"And I had to wonder if "fat" helps spirochetes out in some way."
"I did run across an article recently that said spirochetes like cholesteral, and it made me wonder.
Anyone know anything about this?"
Terry
Just guessing more places to hide.
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They hand it out to college students like candy! I am not obese, but I went from almost dying from being to thin, to gaining 60 lbs in 8 yrs. 
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