luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
ou can live without that tooth or you can keep pouring money out to fix it. It is just one tooth. I'm thinking that tooth is behind the smile line. If so, I would pull it and not even replace it.
JMO. I'm not a dentist and still have all my teeth.
Luvs
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
That's "You" not "ou"
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
thou thinks hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
the doc needs to xray tooth. if still abscessed then he did not clean it out well or there is a fracture in the tooth.
since the tooth had a crown on it prior it is highly likely the tooth has a fracture,whick will never heal.
i would have the dentist remove the crown and eval it. the crown needs to be redone.
if the tooth hurt when the crown was done then i would venture towards cracked tooth again.
history is not enough to fully dx, but it may need to be removed.
i would like to see the dentist get the area comfortable prior to extraction or you may be looking at more than one tooth involvement. this is not typical of trigeminal nerve neuralgia but a bad tooth.
it need to be isolated prior to doing anything.
the easiest test sometimes is the 3 stooges test. tap on the side of the teeth with a metal spoon. if one specifically hurts thats the one.
also biting on a quetip will isolate the tooth. if the pain hurts letting up it is a cracked tooth.
a good dentist should know all this. if not find an educated dentist.
docdave
Posts: 1820 | From Boone and Southport, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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30 hurts for sure. 3 does not hurt while tapping, but hurts later
(Last time I tried this tapping test, I was bedridden for two days afterwards and also vomiting) (this time I tapped minimally, but it seems tapping #3 doesn't do anything in the moment but there is an immense after shock that resonates through my entire right side of skull and down neck eventually......)
Biting down doesn't hurt 30 at all but 30 is absolutely a problem somehow.
Here's how it happened:
2000 -- tooth 30, went to dentist, benign irritation, got a filling.
A year or two later, went to different dentist....re did filling assuming previous dentist was not a good one.
Maybe another year went by.
Went to another dentist complaining the pain was between teeth (impossible to explain) and that it didn't feel like it belonged in my mouth.
No x rays saw any abscess.
This dentist put on a crown and was open to doing exploratory root canal but I opted not, since hoping the crown would help.
2004 -- really serious havoc in jaw, going insane!
2005 -- diagnosed with neuroborrelia
2008 -- root canal in #30.
STILL A PROBLEM!!
And, getting mercury out of #3 has only given me more problems.
If you read this post and it gives you any other ideas, please let me know and thanks!!!
posted
"And, getting mercury out of #3 has only given me more problems."
Perhaps you got the mercury out of the tooth, only to send it to the liver, where it is disrupting other functions...Amalgam replacement must be followed by some effort at heavy metal chelation.
Sounds like #30 is the trouble spot.
I'm not a dentist, but I am very suspicious about that tooth, did it have a filling in it prior to the crown?
[ 11. April 2008, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: DoctorLuddite ]
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
it appears like there was an initial crack in 30 and not dx. crowns sometimes help for a little while because pain occurs in a cracked tooth when the tooth and crack come back together this is why letting up on the bite stick makes it hurt, and is dx of cracked tooth. it took me 4 years and 3 years residency to learn this cracked tooth dilemma. it is not taught in dental school and can make a dentist feel stupid.
i have done root canals on teeth with no sign of disease, decay. only to have it hurt a week later.
also important is glass ionomer cement used to cement crowns on live teeth will cause same pain issue. the cement gets in the tubules of the dentin and irritates the pulp requiring root canal./
anyone getting a crown should be aware not to use glass ionomer cement. this is also not known by most dentists.
i would go to the oral surgeon, let him evaluate it also tn and then let him decide, they don't always pull teeth if they are good surgeons.
ask him to look for a cracked tooth, they know what to look for.
a cracked tooth will have a pocket at the point of the crack, in the gum tissue that goes down the crack length. if they take a perio probe and probe, there may be one spot on the tooth that has a 10mm pocket .this is the crack.
docdave
Posts: 1820 | From Boone and Southport, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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Yes, the tooth did have a filling in it before the crown.
I forgot to mention, there is always a pulling nagging pain in that area, and it roams between teeth 29 and 30. Some days 29 is painful, but not to the touch. It goes into the gum, into the bone area, I think.
The pain is just there without any stimulation, nagging at me all the time for years now!!!
Only tooth 30 seems to get worse to the touch, but honestly the pain is just there on its own.
There is a type of atypical trigeminal neuralgis which neuro diagnosed me with where it has the quick shooting pains but also then becomes just a constant nagging drone of 3 level pain, then flares up to incapacitate.
As for the mercury, I have many lyme and company symptoms, and tests show mercury is not so much a problem.
Tooth number 3 never had any problems until 2006, when dentist put an onlay on it and removed mercury.
So, in dealing with one symptom at a time, I'd love to get this particular pain out of the way
Holistic dentists have said I need to take care of the overall central nervous system, which is quite true.
But still, of course I am hoping that tooth 30 is somehow a local problem that I can take care of.
Biting down on it is not so much a problem at the time of biting, but may irritate or worsen the pain afterwards, the problem is just a constant thing of its own accord, and if I put pressure on the sides of the tooth, either with my tongue or finger or a stick, it increaases in sensitivity.
So if it is a cracked tooth, by now, maybe I ought to just have it pulled. I've tried to go to oral surgeons but apparently around here they don't evaluate, but need to be told what to do by the dentist. I'll keep looking around for a better oral surgeon to evaluate.
posted
"As for the mercury, I have many lyme and company symptoms, and tests show mercury is not so much a problem."
What tests specifically? Some tests are unreliable. A hair test will only reflect the body mercury burden at the time the tested hair was forming in the hair follicle. Drilling through a silver amalgam puts a lot of sequestered mercury into the system.
"Holistic dentists have said I need to take care of the overall central nervous system, which is quite true."
There are too few of those dentists around and too many of the "Amalgams are perfectly safe" camp.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Personally I would pull the tooth. I went for five months in bad pain after a cleaning, with a cavitron, I think they cracked the wisdom tooth, because 2 weeks after the cleaning I had pain like a pulpitis but going down my arm. Nobody isolated where the pain was and nobody did the "bite" test stymielymie suggested for many months. I lived in pain. I was told I had atypical neuralgia, deviated septum that needed surgery, chronic sinus problems, was prescribed neurontin I didn't take. I had a funny feeling about that tooth and it didn't feel right subjectively and finally an endotontist did the bite test and lo and behold! You see, there was no decay in the tooth, obviously just a crack that let bacteria into the pulp, from a too aggressive use of the cavitron, as before then it was a perfectly fine wisdom tooth, nothing wrong with it, and my bones are good. He did a root canal pain went away BUT I am chemically so sensitive I have never been able to tolerate root canal materials I get so sick I can barely get out of bed. I've tried them to no avail a few times I always have to pull the tooth. So finally, pull it I did, and after this five months of misery I was out of pain immediately.
It may not end your pain but it just might vanish like that.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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Alv
Unregistered
posted
well I had the same problem with my tooth and finally , after night guard , jaw pain and lyme became active .Got bells palsy.
That tooth that caused me problems got worst and more infected.If I had removed it before my lyme became active would have been better.
Febr 2007 -I found a biological dentis.He used a biofeedback machine and they found infections.They wanted to save it with ozone injections .
Well I instisted on pulling it.My right arm got numb and well neurolyme got worst i got bloot clots.The root canals that were infected got worse.I had to do IV glutathione to do the surgery.My body could not handle it.
When he opened it -it took him 2 hrs to clean the cavitation as it was very infected .
FYI , lyme goes where the metals and root canals are.
It caused me a numbness exactly where the root canals were not were alive tooths were.
I would really recomend you to pull it with no hesitation.
I wish I had done it since on 2001 when I started compleining about my jaw and the funny feeling above that tooth and it got worst after the root canal .
Again happened in 2005 before I spent money and got more and more injections -poison my jaw and putting new bridges and wasting money and putting more trauma on my jaw.
Pull it and give your jaw a chance to heal.The bugs hide right were the root canals are.Make sure that they clean the cavitation as the bacteria stays there even after you pull your tooth.
stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
this is not a tn neuralgia issue. you were dx incorrectly. this is a tooth issue. it is very common to get referred pain, moving pain lymph nodes and such from 1 tooth.
if it were tn all your teeth would hurt,muscles of mastication and tmj involvement both upper and lower.
this is a simple case of bad tooth and should go away with removal of bad tooth.
if it were dx as tn you should have been placed on anti neurologic meds ie tegretol, neurotin or trileptol.
bad dx on the part of the neurologist or llmd.
docdave
Posts: 1820 | From Boone and Southport, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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The mercury testing I've had done doesn't involve hair follicles but I tell you, due to the adverse experience I have had in my upper teeth in removing mercury (all mercury removed now), I am hesitant about the worth of this endeavor. Just a personal opinion based on a negative experience. It's quite possible I have not had a good dentist take care of this and he left an after pain in tooth #3 that I have not been able to take care of.
But I do think there is something to addressing the entire CNS since I have shooting pains all over my body, both nerve and arthritic and at times feel absolutely raw/exposed, especially through hips - nervous system.
OxygenBabe and Alv,
Thanks so much for sharing your stories. I am on the verge of getting this tooth pulled but still not a hundred percent sure.
Docdave,
Okay, if you can hang in there with me a tad bit longer, I'd appreciate it greatly.
The pain is so multi varied and does include spurts of the classic TN shooting. But underneath that is what I am trying to get to, a constant pull. I have not shared in this post the jaw joint pain, which complicates things. Also, I am curious what you mean by mastication muscles, but if I describe that on my face, near joint and lower jaw area, it gets very hardened, not like bone, but maybe like stressed tendon or muscle??? I don't know. In this post, I was trying to focus on tooth 30 as, as you say and agree, it does seem to be a main culprit of sorts, beyond any TN type thing also going on.
It doesn't sound like symptoms of a cracked tooth to me, does it to you? I looked it up on the internet. What are the symptoms that sound like it is a cracked tooth?
The thing is I've been to 4 different dentists over the years since this started, and 3 different neurologists, plus my LLMD. None of the dentists have much of a clue because there is no xray evidence of anything. Two neuros suggested TN and one neuro suggested abscess into the jaw bone. I was offered many of the TN drugs like neurontin and etc, but declined so far because of all the other problems from the neurolyme.
I would love to rule out TN but, must be careful that this be done accurately!! I think more importantly, I really want to rule in if in addition to whatever else I've got going on with my cranium and jaw and teeth, that if there is somethign with tooth 30....really find out what.
Next week dentist wants to re apply medicine w/cotton and keep it inside the tooth for several weeks, he is not considering at all cracked tooth based on his observations and is not considering anythign wrong with the crown either.
I may seek out an oral surgeon for opinion.
Thanks again for all your words of wisdom with this painted turtle dilemma!
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
I should add a story from an acquaintance where he suffered for a year with pain in his eye, and nobody could diagnose. Finally a very good old fashioned dentist explained that the root of one tooth was twisted and had gone bad. They pulled the tooth and he was fixed.
That's my memory of how he explained it. My terms may be a bit off.
I would trust your subjective sense about the tooth. I had the same about my wisdom tooth. It didn't "feel" right. I was so upset about that bad cleaning that ever since I make them clean by "hand" with the hand tools only. I also cannot emphasize how important a good dentist is who really understands what's going on. Can you believe nobody did a bite test until the endondotist and even he was skeptical? All because you can't see a crack and the xrays look fine. The patient reports pain two weeks subsequent to a cleaning, and a funny feeling in that tooth, and nobody even tests the tooth with a bite test? ARG. I can't believe the amount of misdiagnoses I got at the time. Can you imagine if I went under general anesthesia to have a deviated septum that is lifelong and no big deal, corrected, when it was all my tooth?
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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It's just amazing to me how this has gone on, 8 years. First a filling, then another redoing the filling. Then a crown. Then a root canal. All failed and worsening problems.
It has occured to me that maybe there was an abscess that did get into the, first brain, then bone. If so, the infection may or may not still be there. The bone may be dead in the jaw. So hard to tell and I do wonder if this is a manifestation of the neuroborrelia (et al).
Anyway I appreciate your post. I'm getting closer to pulling the tooth, just need to find the right capable and knowledgeable people to help cuz I'm darn tired of pouring money, (I really no longer have!) down the drain.
posted
Problem too now, is tooth 3 has become a chronic constant pain, it feels very much like a nerve problem, but I don't know. Likely will need to find a way to address this as well, if I ever want to be pain free at least in my teeth/face.
posted
Amalgam removal should be done with caution, by a dentist who understands and is on board with the idea that the mercury in there is a negative influence on health from the date of placement.
Also keep in mind that the nerves that go to the teeth come directly from the brain, so if they become exposed in some way, it places strain on the entire nervous system.
Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with amalgam removal. I only had 3 when I had them removed, but was also seeing a doc who did regular chelations, and I seemed to do ok.
I used to have very severe IBS, but since the amalgam removal, I can eat (within reason) things that normally would have me always scoping for the nearest bathroom.
Most of us over the age of 7, which means pretty much everyone on this site, were exposed to mercury throughout our lives, first prenatally, with whatever sources our mothers had (thimerosol in immunizations, amalgams, etc.) then our own immunizations, and amalgams, etc.
It (mercury) is almost as difficult to demonstrate in the body as the Lyme bug in the post lyme patient, but it can wreak havoc.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
painted turtle, I hope you have gone back and done some searching on this site with posts by Gigi.
She has posted years of her and her husbands experiences on crowns and root canals gone bad, immune systems reaction to heavy metals in mouth and cavitations.
I believe her posts and tons of reading by you will help you make a decision how to proceed with these "teeth problems" you have.
I have about 5 teeth total left to attend to, some crowned, one root canal, and 2 deep 3/4 of the molar is old silver fillings. One molar being cleaned out next week.
They are like a sore thumb that has wacked by a hammer daily. Since Dec I've had a "great" crown in my mouth and that tooth is a happy camper.
Now I know what a crowned tooth should feel like! You shouldn't feel it.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
oxygenbabe - you say that the cavitron caused the crack in your tooth. The cavitron cannot cause a crack in a tooth.
The cavitron was originally invented while trying to develop an alternative to the drill for filling cavities. When the inventors realized it could not cut through tooth surface (intact OR decayed) they redefined its purpose to be an instrument to vibrate tartar off teeth.
It is likely that there was a crack in the tooth when you went in for the cleaning and the cleaning was the catalyst for your troubles. Maybe it stirred up the bacteria, etc.
Anyway, I'm glad you finally got yourself taken care of appropriately.
paitned turtle - If it needs to come out, it needs to come out. Just know there's a big difference between a 3rd molar (wisdom tooth) and a 1st molar (#30). That's an important tooth.
You're getting lots of good advice. I have some that is certainly not ideal, but it works for me. #3 (1st molar) root canal, never right or comfortable, negative on xrays, perfectly fine, etc. My dentist ended up just filing it down until it no longer hits when I bite down so the traumatic force doesn't irritate it.
carly
Posts: 797 | From New York | Registered: Feb 2008
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Carly, I don't believe you. I think he was too aggressive with the cavitron and it cracked the tooth. I had a perfectly fine tooth before that. People can misuse equipment.
Paintedturtle, what is an "important" tooth. It's a tooth that does not hurt, lol! PAIN is very bad for your nervous and immune system. I say, get the tooth pulled. However, go to a very competent oral surgeon, do not have a general dentist pull it, and be sure he or she cleans it out thoroughly. Then give it time to heal. If the nerves in the area have been inflamed for a long time they may take a while to calm down.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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Darned hurt all day 29 and 30....down to the corner of my jaw, back to my ear and even in part down my neck. And up through tooth 3...all different types of pain. Aaaaaaargh.
I'll check in with dentist and post pone the root canal re issueing of medicine
And see if he knows an oral surgeon I can consult
$$$$$$$$$$
Thanks for all your responses.
I did read up on Gigi's posts and in fact that is why I went ahead with the amalgam removals, which backfired on me!
I just want to find what works at this point. If I can deal with the face pain somehow....that's just one more biggie then on to the next one.
stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
painted turtle: this is almost dx of a cracked tooth. i practiced 23 years and learned alot ; when a tooth does not heal, by any means ,it has a crack in it, i could stake my license on it but gave it back. get on clidamycin 150 bid and have it removed 30, not 29 or 3 .they are referred pain.
now the tmj can be from 30 also, going back up the nerve stem to the tmj. yes infection can go in both directions,it can go backwards towards the spine.
one thing at a time. this is still not tn
muscles of mastication are buccinator,massetor, internal and external oblique.sternocleidomastoid, temporal, and others. they all surround the ear canal and if one gets inflamed they all get out of wack.
so start with 30 and see what happens. have oral surgeon exam tooth, he will most surely be impressed with the cracked tooth diagnosis.
docdave Posts: 1820 | From Boone and Southport, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
I had a molar that throbbed and throbbed for about 5 years. I spent hundreds of dollars on that tooth because my dentist said we must save it!!! This tooth had not been crowned or root canal, just periodental work. Great bone loss going on.
He sent me to a tooth saver and that's were the dollars were spent. Dental insurance doesn't pay much on saving seriously infected teeth.
7/15/99 I went to my dentist and ordered him to remove that tooth now, surgery & spending money no longer acceptable. I couldn't take the pain anymore. He did. (No meds and no abx needed)Four days later, the illness from hell struck me.
Do you think there might of been some mean son of gun bacteria hiding out in that weak spot? Where do ya think this infection went?
I call this episode: THE STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMELS BACK. Now, I know it was just a matter of time before something else set if off.
This was the same great dentist that put all these miserable fitting crowns in my mouth and filled all these other teeth with toxins. Needless to say I finally got wise and found myself a good dentist.
I just ordered this old dentist to make copies of all my old records. 35 yrs worth, so my new dentist can help me with making decisions to clean up my toxic territory.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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Yes! It has become a great mystery and it's so hard to say what to do at this point.
So Pam, you are saying the tooth extraction did not solve the problem at the local spot of the tooth? OR it did solve the problem at the local area but yet caused a widespread havoc throughout your body???
I do think there is some bone loss due to the chronicity.
DocDave....I will talk with my dentist about the cracked tooth possibility and let you know what he says. And I think it is best I consult with an oral surgeon.
Just some interesting update:
I took some powdered magnesium last night for the first time.
I had pain EVERYWHERE in my body from going on walks....just EVERYWHERE. Both shooting and constant. And vibrating, especially feet.
But this morning, the teeth pain seems a little better.....I'll see how it goes throughout the day and see if magnesium may make a difference somehow.
Thanks again for all the input, I appreciate it, it has been very helpful.
posted
Wow, I sure do feel for you! I have been thru hell and back myself with teeth/jaw problems.
If you end up going the route of extraction, make sure you have a detailed discussion witht he oral surgeon on his method.
The best way to extract and to avoid doing damege to the adjacent teeth is to have the dentist split the tooth, and rotate each root out individually. Most dentists grab it with pliers and wiggle back and forth till it comes. This is very traumatic on the bone and adjacent teeth!!
I have lost teeth to osteonecrosis and myelitis, which are bone death and bone infection. You can get really strange symptoms from infected root canals and teeth. I had really wierd hip pain on the same side of my root canal tooth, and it went away completely after extraction.
I also had the ear and neck pain you are describing. It seems to radiate up and down the side of the tooth.
It truly is NOT a big deal to lose one tooth. And, if it is infection, the longer you wait, the more damage it can do to the bone around it.
ONe other thing to consider... In one tooth I had vague pain that wouldn't go away. I ended up getting a root canal. It turned out that the pain was coming from a bone spur underneath the tooth. But, the root canal failed, and ended up causing more damage to the bone. What a mess!!
I wish you soooo much luck and goodwill. These kinds of things - pain that is literally in your head, are sooo distressing!
Hang in there,
anneke
Posts: 364 | From California | Registered: Sep 2005
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What gets me is the root canal is just NEW. I had it done in January. But the problem is OLD.
And so amazing how it escalated from nuissance to complete overwhelming ..... cascade of .....
I am on the search for a good oral surgeon and will take down some notes from all the contributions in this thread.
Good people are hard to find, I've noticed, otherwise this might have been solved years ago.
But it is really hard to deal with daily pain like this for years on end.
It would be amazing if, by pulling the tooth and cleaning the bone around it, much of the rest of my symptoms ease off like the joint pains and everything else.
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
"The best way to extract and to avoid doing damege to the adjacent teeth is to have the dentist split the tooth, and rotate each root out individually. Most dentists grab it with pliers and wiggle back and forth till it comes. This is very traumatic on the bone and adjacent teeth!! The best way to extract and to avoid doing damege to the adjacent teeth is to have the dentist split the tooth, and rotate each root out individually. Most dentists grab it with pliers and wiggle back and forth till it comes. This is very traumatic on the bone and adjacent teeth!!"
This is totally true esp with molars that have 3 roots. I learned the hard way as my whole socket was fractured by a stupid dentist. Bone splintered and I got a sequestrum (piece of dead bone working its way out the gum) it was horrifically painful and a good dentist had to go in and scrape it clean and fix it up. He explained to me that he always sections a tooth and just what you said, pulls each root out individually, so as to preserve the MOST bone should you want an implant later.
I don't understand the barbarism and stupidity in much of the dental profession. There ARE some very good ones out there but its hard to know until you find one, whether you have a good or bad one!
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
The extraction set the wheels turning and it wasn't a fun ride. Even if this dentist would of been thinking, what's best for the patient?
Put me on heavy duty abx for days afterwards, I'm sure eventually my immune system would of failed.
I had been attacked by 12 chiggers/nymph ticks(?), just 3 weeks prior. I'd already had early onset of lyme & company sx for 6 mths.
I'd been fighting gum disease/teeth toxins for years. Nobody I knew suggested my teeth/gum and total body health were related.
Nobody I knew suggested that there was a total body connection and I needed to address the root (no pun intended) of my problems.
You better believe it won't be a common everyday oral surgereon Joe Doe that removes my one and only root canal. This person will also address the other toxic area from the molar extraction in '99.
Nobody had told me vector borne illnesses causes gum disease , odd sx that would come and go, years and years of drilling old silver metals and cheap dental work would be damaging to my health.
It wasn't until I started seeing a LLMD three yrs later (already been on abx 2 yrs) and reading his write-ups about the total body connection.
Then with LLMD knowledge and reading post after post from Gigi, EVERYTHING started making sense.
Now I know somethings about a toxic dump and how to clean up my body. Slowly but surely. Most importantly the easy way for my body and this lyme & company disaster.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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