posted
I just stumbled across a German text for pharmacists saying that one should not combine a bacteriostatic abx with a bactericidal one.
Reason: bactericidal abx would only work during the growth phase of bacteria and bacteriostatic abx block the growth. So the bactericidal abx is useless.
I don't want to take the Levaquin for nothing. So why does Dr. B. says to combine Levaquin with a tetracycline?
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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sixgoofykids
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I take the combo and it takes away my symptoms .... so it must work!
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Doesn't Dr. B also state that the abx such as Doxy are bacteriostatic at lower doses, but tend to serve as bactericidal agents at higher sustained doses?
I've read just the opposite on here, with people stating that the Doxy won't kill spirochetes.
Anyone?
-------------------- Craig Posts: 207 | From Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I see my doc tomorrow and will ask him if I should be taking mino too with levaquin. I get the feeling he's going to say no because until I approached him that I had Bartonella he/we didn't think mino was doing anything for me (other than keeping me stable and not regressing which in my mind was ok). He always said that I was on mino because I wanted to be and not that he thought I should be.
Six: do you take your mino and lev at the same time? How much mino are you taking? I have plenty of leftover mino and may begin popping them soon. I don't know how long if can hack the lev so I want to make it count. Plus I'm only taking *1/2* dose (250 mgs) of lev anyway. Make sense?
-------------------- dx in Dec 2003 tested 2x positive for bart Lightly Chelating 3 weeks off abx and 1 week on:
10 day course a month: Plaq/Ceftin/Rifampin/Biaxin with Tindamax on last two days Posts: 187 | From PA | Registered: Apr 2008
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I hope that your Tx is going well. It's good to check things out as long as you remember that there is a lot of bad info that gets posted on boards everywhere, not just here. The best thing would be to check drug interactions between the two because there is no reason why bacteriostatic and bactericidal cannot work together, That's why Bicillin works so well with a Macrolide, as it covers both types of proliferation.
"Although it is generally believed that bactericidal and bacteriostatic drugs should not be combined in vivo, in vitro experiments using the checkerboard dilution technique revealed no antagonism between penicillin/cephalothin and rolitetracycline but rather additive or synergistic activity of either drug combination in 40 to 50% of 20 Escherichia coli, and 14 Staphylococcus aureus strains. Slight antagonism occurred only between 3 and 8 h after combining penicillin/cephalothin and rolitetracycline in either bacteriostatic or bactericidal concentrations, but not after 24 h of incubation, nor was antagonism found with combinations of these drugs in bacteriostatic concentrations. Neither bacteriostatic nor bactericidal activity of penicillin/cephalothin and rolitetracycline was inhibited by pretreatment of one E. coli strain with bacteriostatic rolitetracycline or bacteriostatic penicillin/cephalothin concentrations. Penicillin and cephalothin could exert a bactericidal effect after 2-h exposure of the E. coli strain to bacteriostatic rolitetracycline concentrations. Combined action of subinhibitory penicillin and rolitetracycline concentrations resulted in more pronounced inhibition of growth than either drug alone. The higher activity of penicillin/cephalothin in combination with rolitetracycline on some E. coli and S. aureus strains might be due to a better access of rolitetracycline into bacterial cells whose cell walls have been weakened by cell wall-active, bactericidal drugs. Thus, growth of penicillin-induced spheroplasts of E. coli and stable staphylococcal L-forms was inhibited by much lower concentrations of rolitetracycline than were the corresponding parent cells with intact cell walls."
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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sixgoofykids
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Mrpotto, I take 100 mg mino twice daily and 500 mg levaquin once daily (plus other things). I take the Levaquin with the evening dose of mino.
Micul, good point. Most of us here are not doctors, it's best to check with your doctor/pharmacist and not just take someone's opinion on a message board.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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The problem is that I cannot ask my doctor. Our docs here in Germany have ZERO experience with the treatment of Bartonella and I had suggested the combo of Levo and Mino to my doc after what I read on this board. I'm on my own here in the desert.
mrpotto,
yes, please ask your doc and please tell me what he said. Are you taking the Levaquin alone?
Is everybody taking Levaquin in combo (with what?) or are there also people taking Levaquin alone?
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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sixgoofykids
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quote:Originally posted by Gabrielle: Is everybody taking Levaquin in combo (with what?) or are there also people taking Levaquin alone?
Gabrielle
I'm taking Levaquin, Mino. Malarone, Lariam, Plaquenil and Nystatin, along with herbs, supps, and probiotics.
I'm glad you at least have a doctor there willing to work with you. Have you printed out a copy of the Dr. B guidelines for him?
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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I hope that this is right and that these two abx also have a synergistic effect.
I don't know how my tx is going. Some days I feel like crap and on other days I feel pretty good - like today.
I had two days where my legs were practically not hurting anymore but now the pain is back
In the same lecture paper for pharmacists that I have cited above it says: if a patient who takes Levaquin comes to you and complains about leg pains, send him to a doc immediately .... But it's already three weeks of pains and no rupture yet
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sixgoofykids: I'm glad you at least have a doctor there willing to work with you. Have you printed out a copy of the Dr. B guidelines for him?
Yes, she is great. She had Lyme herself - that's why probably. I printed out tons of info material for her but not the Dr. B guidelines. As she is a member of the German Lyme association I thought that she would know the "Lyme Bible" but maybe you're right. I'd better give it to her.
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I'll keep everyone posted on my llmd visit tomorrow.
Also in re-reading the burrascano guidelines he doesn't actually come out and suggest a tetra he just says it might be ok. Did I read that wrong. I'm paraphrasing from his revised 2005 treatment guidelines doc. Is there another source that suggested that he would add mino or something else with the lev? Also in the lyme solution Ken singleton also doesn't add a combo with the lev. So weird.
I'm hoping the low dose treatment isn't all for naught. I guess I should feel good that I've clinically pinpointed my dx as bartonella. I tested positive for in in 2004 and 2006 but negative (using different labs ever since). I wouldn't herx so badly on levaquin if I didn't have it, right?
Good luck Gabrielle.
Chris
-------------------- dx in Dec 2003 tested 2x positive for bart Lightly Chelating 3 weeks off abx and 1 week on:
10 day course a month: Plaq/Ceftin/Rifampin/Biaxin with Tindamax on last two days Posts: 187 | From PA | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
Glad to hear it Gaby. People get so scared when they read about someone's bad experience with Levaquin that they panic at the first sign of trouble. I've read many stories here where people have worked through the aches and pains and pushed on to finally resolve their Bart infection...at least as much as is possible with continued mag supplementation.
Just remember to take it easy even for a month or two after completing the course so that you don't snap a tendon....it takes time for them to get stronger again. Some have made this mistake of returning to normal physical exertion shortly after Tx because they were feeling so good. BTW, Rifampin is another bactericidal drug that it often paired with a bacteriostatic one like doxy or Zith/Mino.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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I did stop levaquin a 11 days ago after 9 weeks (500 mg/day) as per llmd office recommend...I had complained of tendon pain in shoulder, achilles, and patella. I apparently already had one torn rotator cuff, and am now concerned about the other.
Obviously I'm very freaked about possible tendon damage, but am trying to stay calm and think it's the lyme itself firing off...I started minocycline (for the day after quitting levaquin.
Anway, all that said, how long were some of you on levaquin dose, and what were your results?
lm
Posts: 212 | From Eastern CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Alv
Unregistered
posted
I was on Levaquin 500 mg with DOxy 400mg But you can use also Rifampin with Doxy and Zithr as a second option but for longer.
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check above that is exactly what I had to sign from my llmd when I started Levaquin as my Doxy , Zithr and Rifampin was not eradicating my bartonella case .
My Bart henselae and Quintana test came negative but I had all symtoms.So I have BLO. Check what Dr Burrascano says.
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You are right. Dr. B doesn't say that one needs to combine the Levaquin so I think it should be okay alone. It's just that I had the impression that everybody is combining it with something.
Alv,
Thank you for the link. I wish I knew how to distinguish "normal" pains from painful tendonitis. I see you also combined the Levo with a bacterostatic abx. Did you get rid of your Bart?
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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But it's already three weeks of pains and no rupture yet ![[bonk]](graemlins/bonk.gif)
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