posted
I have been back on ABX for the last 7 weeks. This treatment is Zith/Mepron/Art. As a result my knee and back pain/burning symptoms have
reduced to almost zero (although I still have other symptoms). I had a bad herx this week so I took a break from Zith/Mepron/Art. Within 2 days
I felt my knee and back pain coming back. One half day later the herx ended.
Does it sound like I am killing bugs and lowering the bacterial load and the remaining bugs are rushing back out as soon as the coast is clear?
Or could I just be supressing bugs and not killing anything at all - and that my so called herx is just a reaction to the meds.
Also any thoughts on what bugs are causing the knee and back pain (Lyme, Bart, Ehrlichia or Babs)based on these reactions? Lyme, Ehrlichia and
Bart have come up positive with Igenex. Bart has come up positive with Fry. All negative on Babs but it is still suspected by LLMD.
Posts: 22 | From South Jersey | Registered: Jan 2007
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daise
Unregistered
posted
Hi Niff,
You are very ill. I'm sorry you have to deal with three diseases.
quote: You wrote: Or could I just be supressing bugs and not killing anything at all - and that my so called herx is just a reaction to the meds.
A herx reaction is a reaction to the antibiotics working, causing die-off of germs and the attendant neurotoxins and biotoxins from this. Most get herxes. They go with getting better from these nasty germs. This is the known portal through.
Sounds like you have a good LLMD!
Your questions, I think, are probably universal for we Lymies. We wonder about this and that. Maybe others will have more to offer than me.
I'm glad you are back on a program with GOOD MEDS! You're back on-track!
lymeHerx001
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6215
posted
Gotta admit that I just read your title but it ressonated with me and I often wonder the same thing.
Posts: 2905 | From New England | Registered: Sep 2004
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I guess this is why I decided to go the Dr. Cowden herbal route...
Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
quote: I have been back on ABX for the last 7 weeks. This treatment is Zith/Mepron/Art. As a result my knee and back pain/burning symptoms have reduced to almost zero (although I still have other symptoms).
When you herxed earlier in that cycle of 7 weeks, you reduced the bacterial load. Once the symptoms reduced significantly, it was a sign to stop treatment, and or switch to a different combination.
quote: I had a bad herx this week so I took a break from Zith/Mepron/Art. Within 2 days I felt my knee and back pain coming back. One half day later the herx ended.
Stopping during a bad herx is excellent. You're lowering the load further, then by stopping, the dormant bacteria (A portion) come back out of hiding, thus the symptoms returning, and then you attack again. Hit hard and fast.
quote: Or could I just be suppressing bugs and not killing anything at all - and that my so called herx is just a reaction to the meds.
A reaction to the meds would be perceived as limited, where as a Herx tends to cause a worsening of nearly all symptoms, but especially those in your weakest area. Your might be knees, hips, or neurological. Mine is Neurological and Digestive.
quote: Also any thoughts on what bugs are causing the knee and back pain (Lyme, Bart, Ehrlichia or Babs)based on these reactions? Lyme, Ehrlichia and Bart have come up positive with Igenex.
Is it "joint" pain, or nerve pain in the knee and spine? They overlap quite well but Lyme is the most consistent in causing knee and pain in the back. Bartonella however can cause searing burning type pain, or nerve pain to a higher degree.
quote: Bart has come up positive with Fry. All negative on Babs but it is still suspected by LLMD.
Debilitating fatigue, and night sweats seem to be a hallmark of Babesia, but again Lyme can so easily cause those symptoms as well. It depends on the combination, so the LLMD has a broader overview and is probably right.
quote: Does it sound like I am killing bugs and lowering the bacterial load and the remaining bugs are rushing back out as soon as the coast is clear?
Yes, but not all. Many bacteria take months to come out of dormancy, as well as the fact that you're dealing with a monthly cycle. The key that I've found in all my years of treatment is to use 4 main periods to kill.
1: Regular antibiotic use, attack, herx, rest, attack, herx, rest. This is done consistently until the antibiotic or combination of antibiotics no longer create a Herx reaction.
2: Monthly relapse. Use it as an opportunity, measure it -- you'll find it happens within a consistent range. When it comes, hit hard. This is where herbal therapy works extremely well, such as Banderol, and Samento, as they absorb very quickly and cross the blood brain barrier.
3: Seasonal. Spring and Fall -- two MAJOR turning points in the rate of infection. Rest from August/October without any treatment, then when the seasonal relapse hits, it'll hit hard, and then you hit hard. Crush it, hit it for two weeks, back off, hit it again in two more weeks. This cycle should kill a large portion.
4: Intentionally instigating relapse. Antibiotic relapse are of course easily ended by "pushing it" too hard. However, if you "plan" it as a part of your treatment, you can go for a jog, a long daily walk at the beach, lift some heavy weights -- anything to instigate the infection. Beware however to still care for yourself as soon as the symptoms come on. Begin immediate treatment about 3-4 days prior to the exertion. The antibiotic isn't in a concentration that's readily noticeable -- if you time it right.
It depends on the antibiotic. Only you and your past experience with a particular antibiotic know when the infection responds. So get the timing right between instigating the infection and having the medication suddenly reach therapeutic levels.
All these techniques will lower the load "Hypothetically."
I'm not a doctor, but overtime I've watched other patients, and listened to my own body. I believe you're only improving if you're herxing, and long drawn out Herx reactions are not productive, but planned and consistent herx/detox/rest/herx/detox/rest is the pattern that works well. Here is how the entire year would look.
January: Week 1: Start treatment. Week 2: Herx begins, Discontinue treatment, Start Detox Week 3: Detox until Herx ends. Herx may not end in a day or two or three, if lifecycle interferes, and the herx is longer, start treatment. Week 4: Start treatment
Repeat each month until Spring, around March/May -- look for the seasonal relapse, then hit it hard.
After the season relapse is hammered, repeat January as May, then repeat the same for June, then July, and then August finish up and prepare for the Fall/Winter relapse.
In-between all of this, if you feel like you're not herxing as much, medication changes or taking breaks during the seasonal shift (2 months usually or until symptoms return) can help the dormant infection arise, and then you hit it by starting treatment again.
Choosing combinations against all forms of your infection would be useful. A useful method for all three would be Samento, Banderol, Rifampin, Tetracycline, Minocycline, Art, and Mepron.
Just remember, you can't take Mepron while using Rifampin. So those would be separated by the combination you chose.
The herbal therapies of Samento/Banderol and Art are all potent against Babs, Bar, and Lyme. So creating a pattern with your physician would be useful.
Creating another combination would be Bactrim, Biaxen, Mepron, Art. This would hit all three as well.
Anyway, you get the idea. Picking a plan in advance and adapting it to how your body responds is the key. It must be flexible. Each meds has side effects and could have allergic reactions, so that's something to talk over with your care provider as well.
Remember, I'm not a doctor. This is just my hypothesis based on things I've picked up overtime. I'm not a health care provider of any sorts, so talk with your physician and do your homework if any of these ideas interest you.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
posted
Metallic Blue - excellent reponse. Thank you very much.
Wild Condor - yes I belive my dosages are pretty high. Zith - 1,000 mg per day / Mepron - 5 teaspoons per day / Alot of Art also
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