posted
I am taking Houttuynia herb, but not Zhang's actual HH capsules. I get Plum Flower brand Houttuynia powder and use that instead. I *definitely* think it is helping with bartonella. I am herxing like crazy on it with bart symptoms, which is really hard, but it is definitely helping with my bartonella cardiac problems.
Posts: 929 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Oct 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
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Here's a little information that can help sort out differences.
Extract is stronger than whole herb. Extract may be from whole herb, leaves, stems, root or rhizome (the last "tail" of the root).
Whole herb (whether loose for tea or as capsule) sometimes contains more parts of a plant and may have some synergistic actions that are desired.
However, sometimes the whole herb is not strong enough. Yet, maybe that is not needed and the gentleness of an herb is desired.
So, when you compare, you'll know to be sure to note if extract or not.
Also - in the processing, a chemical free process is vital - and in capsules, it's ideal not to have other stuff.
Tinctures are not as strong as extracts but are stronger than raw herbs. Also can be from all the plant or certain parts as certain parts of even the same plant can have different properties.
Tinctures usually are alcohol based. Some companies use organic alcohol, some use glycerin (those are not as strong). the alcohol (or glycerin) is required to keep the essence of the plant from spoiling.
The One Earth Herbal Sourcebook (Tilltoson) describe this all far better than I can.
johnnyb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7645
posted
Is this made by the same doc who makes the artemisia herb, which is actually the very effective artenusate?
If so, I plan to order both at the same time!
Posts: 1197 | From New Jersey | Registered: Jul 2005
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
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Yes, Hepapro. You can also buy Dr. Z's book there. I highly recommend getting the book if you plan to do his protocol. He offers much research that is not available anywhere on the web.
I also find the allicin to be the absolute best and I've tried all the cheaper brands - even some more expensive. But the hepapro is much better, in my experience.
PubMed also has abstracts from around the world on many of the supplements at the hepapro site.
Also, I don't know they still do this, but for those of very low income, you might ask if there is a discount for those of a certain income range. they may ask for verification of income but, in the past, there were a few who received a 25% discount.
For those for whom buying the book may be a burden, it might not hurt to ask if they have a one just floating around that would not be missed.
posted
I have been taking the Hepapro HH capsules for about 2-3 weeks now, no noticeable effects, but I plan to give it more time. It's expensive stuff...
-------------------- Why me? Well, why not me??? Posts: 411 | From San Francisco, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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sparkle7
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posted
Great info! Thanks. I'm not doing this protocol right now but I like to know about it. I may try it after I'm done with the Cowden protocol.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I am treating Lyme and Bart by currently taking 4 HH capsules per day (along with Zith, Coptis and R5081). I start herxing hard by the 3rd day after
starting this almost everytime. Then I back off for 2 to 3 days and then start over. I am trying to ramp the HH up to higher doses but right now
this is as high as I can go. I assume it is working because I see pretty clear treatment/herx relationship.
Posts: 22 | From South Jersey | Registered: Jan 2007
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Keebler
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posted
- djf2005
Your mailbox is full.
--===========
I'm far too wordy and it's hard to really say exactly what I want, but I will try to the question
Houttuynia is not meant to be a stand alone if one is looking for success in overcoming an infection. The action of HH is mostly anti-inflammatory and immunomodulatory, thereby supporting the action of stronger anti-microbials (be they abx or something like garlic or coptis).
Even for substances that have an anti-microbial action, they may not pack enough punch alone and combining complicates the code the bacteria has to crack to resist.
If one is taking Houttuynia simply for anti-inflammatory reasons, it can be taken alone. Perhaps, too, if simply for Immunomodulatory effects, but a doctor trained in this discipline and one who truly know lyme/TBD is best to say about that.
However, when one is attempting to treat infections such as we discuss here, mono-therapy (whether pharmaceutical or nutritional) is discouraged so that infections do not develop resistance.
In herbal medicine, formulas usually have several ingredients for this reason, as well as to offer a synergistic effect. Combining herbs make them stronger and balance out the effects, as well, as address other support matters.
With abx prototocol for lyme, note that Drs. B and C in their guidelines address why mono-therapy often fails.
There are many LLMDs who incorporate nutrional and herbal formulas into the treatments; there are also many LLNDs (naturopathic physicians) who incorporate the use of abx for TBD.
If you want to know more about Dr. Z's protocol, getting his book is the best way to begin. Once the book has been read you can contact the author for a complementary chat.
The book: Lyme Disease and Modern Chinese Medicine by Dr. QingCai Zhang and Yale Zhang (Paperback - Mar 1, 2006)
the book contains tons of citations amid the research. Many questions will be answered. www.hepapro.com carries it. It is recommended by MD, Andrew Weil on his site. Amazon carries it, too.
Buhner's book, Healing Lyme, also discusses why herbs are used in combination.
====================
And, to start with the basics: The One Earth Herbal Sourcebook (Tillotson) is a wonderful place to learn the basics of this language, the history of this medicine and the art of putting it to use.
You can look around most of the book at the link. This is all about to understand traditional medicines. The only mention of lyme is with the use of sarsaparilla.
[ 19. July 2008, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
thanks keebler for the information.
so in short it should be used in combination w/ another drug/abx so the bacteria does not develop resistance, etc.
same principles used in abx tx of lyme, i gotcha.
do you think HH can be paired w/ cumanda and enula and be sufficient at keeping bartonella from becoming resistant or does it have to be specifically paired w/ another zhang herb, such as coptis?
ive been on HH for about 2 months now, also paired w coptis, cumanda, and enula. just stopped the coptis recently for financial reasons, but now im wondering if i should continue.
your thoughts are appreciated.
thanks
derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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I am not familar with cumanda, and enula. There are many here who are familiar with those, so perhaps their experience can help.
You may not need houttuynia with those (or you may not need those with houttuynia).
In fact, I would not mix alternative protocols unless the treating doctor had full knowledge of both and of all the aspects and interactions of each herb. In that case, you would go off a protocol for individualized treatment (usually through a LL ND).
There are many reasons for not mixing and matching herbal formulas from different plan. Each has been thought out with specifics in mind and just a tiny thing can alter the intended results.
Other things may be added such as adrenal or liver support but, in line with the prescribing doctor's knowledge.
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For a glimpse into the properties of those you mentioned above, I did a a brief search of the original herbs.
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