posted
When I was diagnosed with Lyme one of the signals or symptoms was my very high Vitamin D count...I've read some papers, but frankly can't seem to digest - seems that my neuropathy and neural pathways are set up weird as I cannot "get it".
I am not a scientist or a doctor but my father is a medical researcher and my husband is a scientist so I should be able to at least some what understand.
Anyways - Does anyone else have this? Sorry for the long discussion - just the way my brain works sometimes.
-------------------- If you think it you can achieve it; if you dream it you can become it! Posts: 22 | From Germantown, Maryland | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
Did - am following diet, but not drugs yet - doctor is holding off due to photosensitivity issues.
We're doing a retest this month - just wanted to know if others had experienced this fantastic phenomenon - please note sarcasm.
-------------------- If you think it you can achieve it; if you dream it you can become it! Posts: 22 | From Germantown, Maryland | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
What was probably high was the 1,25 dihydroxy level, not the 25 hydroxy level. If the latter is low for a long time, it is difficult to absorb calcium from the intestine, and when calcium and phosphate drops, parathyroid hormone is released and the enzyme that converts 25 hydroxy to 1,25 dihydroxy is up-regulated, and 25 hydroxy rapidly gets converted, resulting in an increase in 1,25, and that enhances the mobilization of calcium from bone. The result will be osteopenia or osteoporosis. Always check the 25 hydroxy level, that is the reserve.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7911
posted
Dr. L, I have heard that the ratio of 25 to (the other) is also important. What is the acceptable/desireable range of this ratio?
Does one make the ratio 25:(the other), or (the other): 25?
(you can see how much I know about this!) Northstar
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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klutzo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5701
posted
I was told the ratio should be between 1.0 and 1.25, if I remember correctly. It's been a long time. Mine was 1.08.
My 25 D is in normal range at 41, but I supplement anyway, because the normal range was decided by testing an already depleted population, and as a result many researchers now think the optimal range should be higher.
They base their opinion that the urban population the normal ranges were derived from was deficient on recent studies done on indigenous populations, like the aborigines. Their vitamin D levels are double what we consider normal, and like animals, they mostly do not get sick at all until they get whatever it is that kills them.
I have osteopenia anyway, despite having exercised constantly, eaten loads of dairy and greens all of my life, and also having big bones. It is probably because I have to take a PPI, and those drugs are notorious for increasing fracture risk.
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Since the 1,25 level depends on the enzyme activity in the kidney as it relates to chronic deficiency of the 25 hydroxy, the ratio has limited value; in an unsupplemented individual who avoids sun (and the few measly units of D2 you might get from milk or other supplemented foods don't count) you can expect the ratio to be low (25 hydroxy:1,25 dihydroxy) but you have to lightly supplement with D3 to see what happens.
The initial response might be elevation of the 1,25, which is a potent hormone, and can result in a rapid metabolic shift. Other hormones have to be considered, specifically thyroid and adrenal, as such a shift will place demands on them, and those demands have to be supported nutritionally.
It is best to get to vitamin D deficiency early, before long term consequences manifest. Children should not ever be allowed to be vitamin D deficient, as they need D to develop their peak bone density, which happens between the ages of 17 to 22; if they pass this window while vitamin D deficient, the best bone density they will ever achieve will have occurred while they were unable to absorb calcium.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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northstar
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This is the whole foods webpage on Vitamin K. It is a good summary of the vitamin. I had read that vit.K was a part of bone health, and was looking for info of its relationship with vit. D and calcium. Yes, there is a relationship.
So a low 25 can be sourced to other nutritional deficits? Or kidney dysfunction? And how do adrenals, which sit on kidneys, affect these things?
Next one on the list is boron.
(thank you klutzo and Dr. L for the info on the ratio's, levels, etc.)
quote: Vitamin D is believed to regulate the production of certain calcium-binding proteins that function in the bones and kidneys. Because these binding proteins are dependent on vitamin K, an interrelationship between vitamin D and vitamin K is likely.
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7911
This is the LEF website, and part of the boron article involves brand name products. But, there was one part that mentioned boron intake increasing Vit. D levels:
quote: Boron may likewise help to alleviate the detrimental effects of vitamin D deficiency on calcium metabolism. Vitamin D is crucial to bone health because it helps to support calcium absorption.
One study showed that when animals were fed a diet deficient in vitamin D, increasing dietary boron intake helped support optimal calcium absorption. This finding indicates an additional role for boron in promoting optimal mineral balance and ensuring healthy calcium utilization.9
Clinical studies demonstrate that FruiteX B� OsteoBoron� is particularly effective in supporting healthy bones.
One study confirmed the beneficial effects of FruiteX B� OsteoBoron� on vitamin D status, a crucial contributor to bone health.2
In a pilot clinical study, 11 vitamin D-deficient patients were given 6 mg of boron from FruiteX B� OsteoBoron� for 60 days.
Ten of the 11 patients experienced an average 24% increase in serum vitamin D level, indicating that supplementation with FruiteX B� OsteoBoron� may help optimize calcium metabolism and bone density.
Nutritional intakes of boron have been shown to lessen the adverse consequences of vitamin D deficiency in rodents.
Pilot clinical studies suggest that this effect may be mediated, in whole or in part, by an increase in serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D. We propose that, in concentrations achievable with good diets, boron suppresses the activity of the microsomal enzyme 24-hydroxylase, chiefly responsible for catabolism of this steroid.
This inhibition may reflect a direct interaction with the enzyme, or perhaps boron's ability to form a covalent complex with the product of its activity, 24,25-dihydroxyvitamin D.
An up-regulatory impact of boron on 25-hydroxyvitamin D is potentially beneficial in light of the fact that the vitamin D status of many individuals is poor during winter months, and traditional supplemental doses of this vitamin are often too low to correct this problem.
There is growing evidence that good vitamin D status - as reflected by 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels - may reduce risk for a host of prominent disorders; thus, boron may have the ability to potentiate this protection.
Clinical studies also suggest that nutritional boron can up-regulate 17β-estradiol levels in women, including postmenopausal women receiving hormone replacement therapy.
The catabolism of this hormone is achieved by microsomal enzymes catalyzing vicinal hydroxylations - a description that also applies to 24-hydroxylase.
This suggests the more general hypothesis that nutritional boron can inhibit a range of microsomal enzymes which insert hydroxyl groups vicinal to existing hydroxyls in steroids - including the enzymes which catabolize estradiol and 25-hydroxyvitamin D. =========================== (I have no idea what the last few paragraphs mean!)
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northstar
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Member # 7911
As a fat-soluble vitamin, vitamin D requires some dietary fat in the gut for absorption.
Individuals who have a reduced ability to absorb dietary fat might require vitamin D supplements [46].
Fat malabsorption is associated with a variety of medical conditions including pancreatic enzyme deficiency, Crohn's disease, cystic fibrosis, celiac disease, surgical removal of part of the stomach or intestines, and some forms of liver disease [15].
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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Marnie
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posted
D3 and calcium.
Bb impacts the Na-Ca pump (known).
Your body is trying to regulate the amt. of circulating Ca...and keep your bones strong.
Vitamin D is also a very very "anti cancer" vitamin!!!
When DNA is undermethylated...say "hi" to cancer.
Your body is trying to find ways to PROTECT YOU...always think of it that way.
Gamma/delta T cells take a "hit"...alpha and beta aren't "enough"/able to do the trick.
It is Bb's PKC *inhibitor* that is the biggest problem.
I think it is PKCD (delta form).
See my posts today (6/19).
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by DoctorLuddite: ...(and the few measly units of D2 you might get from milk or other supplemented foods don't count) you can expect the ratio to be low (25 hydroxy:1,25 dihydroxy) but you have to lightly supplement with D3 to see what happens.
Why do you keep posting this nonsense that milk is fortified with D2? Every single milk label I've looked at lists Vitamin D3, not D2!
posted
Hey fellow MPer, be nice! It can be confusing to anyone! ; )
Excerpts on milk and D:
It is a fact that most milk sold in the US will contain vitamin D3 with two origins. (a) That vitamin D3 made by the cow using sunlight to irradiate 7-dehydrocholesterol present in her skin. (b) That vitamin D3 made by a chemical process and then added to the cow milk as a nutritional supplement. It is simply not possible to distinguish the origins of the two vitamin D3 preparations by any biological or chemical procedure, because they are the same molecular structure. Further, there is no legal requirement for the manufacturer of the vitamin D3 formulated for human food supplementation to specify the animal sources of the precursor molecules that were employed in the synthesis of the D vitamin.
And...
Chemistry: There are two chemical forms of vitamin D, namely vitamin D2 (sometimes referred to as ergocalciferol) and vitamin D3 (sometimes referred to a cholecalciferol). The natural form of vitamin D for animals and man is vitamin D3 that is produced in their bodies from cholesterol and 7-dehydrocholesterol. An alternative vitamin D2 is derived from the yeast sterol ergosterol by chemical procedures.
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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