posted
I know what cytokines are and I realize there are certain pro/anti-inflammatory cytokines, but I'm curious as to those of you who got these tested, had abnormal or normal results?
I know what the article say...borrelia does stimulate pro-inflammatory cytokines, but I have a hunch there are people out there who have been diagnosed with LD and had normal levels.
posted
I don't know much about this subject. But there is an LLMD here in Germany who says that according to her long years of experience all people with chronic Lyme do have the following:
TNF-alpha: elevated Interferon-gamma: elevated Interleukin 10: normal
She says when you don't have this constellation then it's not chronic Borreliosis. And she says that in chronic Lyme you NEVER have elevated Interleukin 10.
All these three cytokines are normal in my test. My LTT-Melisa (controversial test) also shows no activity of Borrelia.
That's why they think now that I'm autoimmune. Could still be another infection, though.
Don't know if she is right.
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
up for answers for mike and his niece, alex!
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Gabrielle
As you suspect, lyme is not the only infection that causes auto-immune reactions. Mycoplasmas, strep, babesia, chlamydia pneumoniae are ones I test positive for. My rheumatologist who is lyme literate and believes in infectious causes to RA is treating my infections and believes I will put the RA into remission.
Luvs
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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Clarissa
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4715
posted
Hi Dear Mike,
The first time I ever heard the word cytokine was just over a year ago when I was feeling sick again after a 3 year remission from Lyme.
My LLMD in NYC did some tests on me (at the time we thought it was my hormones not a coinfection). Anyway, my hormones were fine but my cytokine level was through the roof.
It was BECAUSE of that high cytokine count that set off the red flag to check for other things, which led to the findings of my Bart, Babs, biotoxin and mold genes.
Overproduction of cytokines is a HUGE RED FLAG not to be ignored. It's finding out what's CAUSING the overproduction that's challenging.
posted
This is my dilemma. The only cytokine that was listed as abnormal was IL-12. Although this was done very late in her illness and I am not completely sure how long they would stay abnormal, if they were.
It still shocks me that not one of the ducks she saw ever ordered this test...she even saw an immunotoxicologist. Good grief, that should have been the first thing!!!
I would think that since she was still worsening at the point the test was done, if pro-inflammatory cytokines were present, they would have been abnormal. If that were the case, then that would mean a continuing, active infection.
But, on the other hand, this would mean her loss of function would not be from inflammation, but from a "direct invasion", or some sort of antigen variation/molecular mimicry process....does this sound correct, or am I off my rocker????
posted
I would think with the different outer surface proteins and variation in expression, the cytokine/immunological response would vary quite a great deal.
Maybe this could be a reason why so many of us are different with our clincial symptoms and reaction(s) to treatment...???
I am really looking for anyone who has had these parameters measured and if they were actually normal, but has tested positive for Lyme and/or a coinfection?
I know this is a gross oversimplification, but isn't the herxheimer reaction basically caused by an increase in cytokines?
I am pretty sure these inflammatory markers are highly variable from hour to hour and day to day the same way that white blood counts fluctuate. Also think that if overall white blood count is low then the cytokine levels would most likely be on the low side as well.
Has your niece had a Cd4a blood test?
Bea Seibert
P.S. Hubby had several tests over a 2 or 3 year time frame early in his illness when he showed elevated antibodies to myelin on bloodtests. One of the labs is no longer in business and I haven't checked to see if the 2nd lab still offers the test.
Hubby's 3 spinal taps did not find any evidence of M.S. or myelin problems. He started with one brain lesion before tick-borne illness and now has 4 or 5. I think it is either a slower process of Lyme etc attacking the nerves/brain or just a case of the spinal taps not being done when the inflammation was at the highest level.
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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dmc
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5102
link was email to me- but this part struck me as a validation of my Lyme & Bartonella causing my "MS"
"This means that it is primarily an autoimmune disease. Virtually all autoimmune diseases are caused by microbes getting into places the immune system cannot kill them. The attempt of the immune system to kill the microbes is what causes the inflammation."
Posts: 2675 | From ct, usa | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I guess I have always thought herx's were more from the dying off of the bacteria and the release of endotoxins, which is a direct result of the antibiotics.
That being said, if that were true, abx. would then be able to modulate the immune system altering cytokine production.
Since Lyme and coinfections are immune suppressors, wouldn't it make sense cytokine testing would be in the normal ranges???
posted
I had several cytokines measured. They were in normal range. But no herx at the time. A herx is a cytokine cascade, so they would really have to be checked at several times.
Not sure how good cytokine measuring is, though. And there are a lot of cytokines/chemokines.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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