Topic: LLMD claims Zitth alone will Treat Coinfections?
gemofnj
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15551
posted
I saw my LLMD yesterday, who is very noted in Jackson Tsp. NJ.
She claims that if I have/had any coinfections that the 500 mg 1x a day generic zithromyacin will kill them too.
My co tests were all negative, and cant really say I have symtoms other than lyme.
Should I be nervous about the course of this treatment?? Its sounds weird.
Posts: 1127 | From atlantic city, nj | Registered: May 2008
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
If by chance you have babesia I would think you would need a Malaria drug as well like Mepron or Malarone or at least something herbal and as far as treating bartonella I would think you would need something more to treat bartonella with as well.
With co-infections sometimes the symptoms show up as you start to treat Lyme. They are a clinical diagnosis so you cannot count on the testing. The whole process of figuring out if one has co-infections it like peeling off the layers of an onion. If you treat one co another may come out more to be treated.
I knew someone who was told they had finished treating Lyme only to have bartonella show up later when they were given steroids.
Another person was given Levaquin for a GI issue only to have it bring out their undiagnosed bartonella. Diagnosing co-infections can be very tricky at times.
I am not an expert but I wonder what exactly your LLMD is thinking saying one drug treats all cos.
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Clarissa
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Member # 4715
posted
I'm SO sorry to say that is 100% INcorrect information. Good for you for inquiring!
For Babesia, you would need to add Mepron or Malarone, as well as some Artemisae to that Zith.
For Bartonella, you would need to add Rifampin, Doxy or Mino to that mix.
For Ehrlichia, you would need only Rifampin.
Zith will hit Lyme, a little Bart, a little Babs.
The only thing that hits EVERYTHING is a product called Mesosilver (www.colloidsforlife.com) per my LLMD.
And even that is controversial amongst the members here but I'm taking it to cover the bases.
Listen to Daryl Hall of Hall & Oates speak about coinfections: The 4th screen is the most informative:
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
So sorry for this. It must be very hard to be in this place.
Yes, you need to find a doctor who REALLY knows about all the tick-borne infections. Yes, she is wrong in her statement in a couple of ways.
1. tests are not the definitive answer in co-infections any more than in lyme.
2. she is wrong about the treatment. Depending upon the co-infection, different drugs are required. And, babesia NEVER uses mono-treatment.
3. You are on a mono-therapy for lyme (and possibly too low of a dose). Mono-therapy is never advised with any tick-borne disease. Combination treatments that cover all the stages and forms of the spirochete are needed for lyme.
4. She also chose a drug that, for many, causes side-effects for the ears and can cause liver damage more readily than other drugs used for TBD.
You need a wider range of support.
-
You may not have co-infections. But you may. Regardless, you need someone treating you who know about them all. She does not.
Curious here, how did you find this "LLMD"? She apparently is not ILADS educated.
Good luck.
=======================================
www.ilads.org ILADS - you can download the ILADS Treatment Guidelines here.
=========
This book, by an ILADS member LLMD, holds many answers and suggestions:
posted
Zith can cause liver damage more than any other abx? Wow, didn't know that. And I'm betting my LLMD is going to want to add that one to the mix, whenever I see him in 2 weeks. I can't take Levaquin either, due to the side effects.
If a person gets their organs monitored through blood work every month, liver damage should be a non-issue, correct? If the count is high, you just lay off.
-------------------- Craig Posts: 207 | From Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Did not know that zith caused liver damage so easily. Can you post more on this (studies)?
My guess would be that your LLMD is afraid to prescribe mepron for you without a positive test, so you are only getting the mono-therapy (zithromax).
I would at least add the artemisinin to the zithromax as a co-therapy. This way you can hopefully prevent resistance.
Maybe add some other herbs as well, but its hard to get a clear answer. Search here, as I did. I'll see what I can do with what I found.
Posts: 111 | From Nowhere | Registered: Jun 2008
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Vermont_Lymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9780
posted
No, that does not sound right to me. Common co-infections in the Northeast, like babesia and bartonella to name only two, would require additional treatments.
Hope you can get another llmd opinion. I had to switch from my first doctor, who told me that 250 mg/day zith would cover every tick-borne disease. My health greatly improved following treatment by a different llmd.
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
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hiker53
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 6046
posted
No way, I did 2 months of zith orally and 5 months I.V. with flagyl. Am still ill. Hiker53
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 8890 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I finally cleared babesia with zith and artemisinin. This after nearly 2 yrs of clindamycin/quinine... off and on.
In my opinion, the zith must be paired with SOMETHING.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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gemofnj
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15551
posted
To Keebler:
Thank you for such good information. I actually got referred to her from folks on this board, healthboards,' ' and the list you can get from here. Dr. E, from Jackson, NJ who most people recommended.
To all:
If anyone knows of a better one in SJ (I have really searched) or in the Philadelphia area, that would be good.
I do read as much as I can on lyme and also this board to get educated.
But besides good info, I realize there are so many sincere, kind and helpful people here who really care about others in the same boat.
Thanks to everyone!
Posts: 1127 | From atlantic city, nj | Registered: May 2008
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Hoosiers51
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posted
Just wanted to make a possible correction.....Clarissa mentioned you would need Rifampin for Erlichia, but I believe the recommended drug for Erlichia is Doxycycline.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
To original poster--- Is the Zithromax ALL you're on?
Even if you don't have coinfections, I don't know if Zithro on its own will even treat Lyme well.
If your infection(s) is/are new, theoretically Zithro MIGHT take care of the Bartonella.....but if it is a little bit older, there is a decent chance Zithromax would not give you results for Bartonella. I think it is hard to know for sure.
But Zithro on its own is a little odd, even for Lyme.
As far as Babesia goes, that is another ball game! You may want to try treating Lyme and Bart first if your babesia tests were negative and you don't have babesia symptoms. Babesia is very serious though, and if you do have it, it will need to be treated, but if you have no evidence (including symptoms) that you have it, you may be wasting your time if you try treating it now.
I would say you should at least add something like Doxycycline to the mix....we'll see if anyone else agrees....because it would treat possible Erlichia and Lyme. I'm not really sure what the first line of defense for Bartonella is, at least Zithro works against it a little. Not saying it will eradicate it though.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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Q: Did not know that zith caused liver damage so easily. Can you post more on this (studies)?
Yes, it is stated in Dr. Singleton's book.
p. 248: " . . .Azithromycin is not as effective for lyme as clarithromycin (Biaxin), but is better tolerated. . . "
p. 249 . . . he mentions, with Macrolides (such as Zithro and Biaxin):
specifically: " . . . they can also lead to unhealthy elevations of liver enzymes, which can be an early sign of liver damage. . . " end quote.
- The thing is, that if liver protection is used, this may be avoided. How to do all that, though, is discussed in the book.
And, no part or no one protocol - pharmaceutical or complementary - is a walk in the park. It's all hard. We do the best we can with protection, though.
-
This book, by an ILADS member LLMD, incorporates pharmaceutical and complementary approaches and often quotes from some of the research of Harold Buhner:
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
gemofnj -
pardon me if I implied you have not educated yourself. My frustration with doctors rubs off in the post, not meaning to dump it on you.
So often one or two things will grab attention and we all just zoom off on that . . . not meaning to deny your involvement, but more in conserving energy - and keeping track of the thing that we've just read here or there.
If you have any ringing in the ears, ask for another drug. I hope you don't, but if you do, that can become serious and is not to be taking lightly. B-6 and NAC might be of help, though.
You mentoned zith is the only thing the doctor has you on. No support measures?
posted
I am surprised Dr E would rx only one med. I know her and she is knowledgable. In the past I have been on 3-4 meds at a time with her, and other patients I know are the same. 1 at a time does not sound like her norm. Could it be possible she was planning on adding other meds into the mix later?
I am on Zithro IV only for a month but when questioned about that, my dr (not Dr E) said he wants to see how I handle it and then will add in a med for Babesia. I have bad herxes which have really set me back.
Is this the first time you saw her? If so you might want to give it a month and see what she says at your next appointment.
Posts: 262 | From nj | Registered: Dec 2007
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gemofnj
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posted
Keebler- no need to pardon-advice well taken! Thanks.
NJgirl-its my 3rd visit with Dr. E.
1st visit: she put me on Biaxin XL 1,000 mg a day, and I questioned abx for co's and she said it would take care of co's.
2nd visit: I complained it wasnt working, gave me a muscle test, and she changed to just Zith, 500mg.
3rd visit: Continued zith, and again questioned co's and abx and she stated it will kill them all.
Maybe she is using just zith because I not that sick, & I just only have lyme, but I still think it is unusual.
She did give me tests check my liver 2 months in a row. So I dont know whats up with her. I know she comes highly recommended.
But I dont want to get worse!
Posts: 1127 | From atlantic city, nj | Registered: May 2008
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hiker53
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posted
Have you been tested by Igenex or Fry for c-infections? I am not sure I would only rely on muscle testing, but that is just my humble opinion.
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 8890 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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METALLlC BLUE
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Member # 6628
posted
Invest a little money in further testing to confirm, so you're not in the dark alone, either that or get a second opinion. There are tons of physician in your local area.
Let me know if anything changes.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
gemofnj
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15551
posted
Metallic,
Do I ask her for further testing?
She already ran the co's thru a lab called bio reference. Which was over $1,000.00!! (luckily I escaped payment)
Also, was tested earlier by ID lame duck (Que*t) an no co's.
Can you suggest a good lab then? & do I do it on my own?
Posts: 1127 | From atlantic city, nj | Registered: May 2008
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sutherngrl
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Member # 16270
posted
Maybe your LLMD has the theory that if you treat the Lyme Borellia then your own immune system will then be able to overcome the co-infections.
Our immune systems are designed to fight off bacteria and viruses and possibly once the Borellia is taken care of, and if your immune system is in good enough shape this could happen.
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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Did you have a CD57 done? Has she recommended immune boosting supplements? I think one abx even for Lyme alone is not enough unless caught right after the bite. I could be wrong though.
Posts: 262 | From nj | Registered: Dec 2007
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gemofnj
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posted
quote:Originally posted by njgirl14: gemofnj
Did you have a CD57 done? Has she recommended immune boosting supplements? I think one abx even for Lyme alone is not enough unless caught right after the bite. I could be wrong though.
Yes, it last month. It was a 45. If I go off abx I will relapse for sure! She said to take AG Immune to help boost my immune system.
If I dont boost the immune, then CD57 will not go up. Its not based on how you feel, but your level of immunities I guess.
Posts: 1127 | From atlantic city, nj | Registered: May 2008
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gemofnj
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posted
Suthern,
I do suppose that is possible. And I have heard that some LLMD's try and kill lyme and then attack the co's.
And it is possible that I really dont have any coinfections. I really don't know of any symptoms (that I still have) that would relate any of them. Most of them have waned quite a bit.
Most of my symptoms are fatigue and muscularskeletal.
Occasional heart thud, and shortness of breath here and there.
I dont think I am comforable with treating myself. I'm too scared to do that.
Posts: 1127 | From atlantic city, nj | Registered: May 2008
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
Still,
Even for lyme, mono-treatment is not advised by any of the ILADS research even just for lyme.
--
and you said: " . . . Occasional heart thud" ?? Was this before or after zith ?
zith can affect the Q-T (timing of beats ) of the heart - and cause those skips.
Be careful - no trampolines or skateboards just now, okay ?
-
p. 249, Singleton: the macrolides (which includes zith, biaxin)
" . . .can sometimes affect the electrical activity of the heart (called the Q-T interval), and this may need to be assessed prior to using these medications for an extended time. . . . "
-----
Also, one reason your doctor may be using this alone is that zith and biaxin can cause the liver to have problems breaking down other drugs. (also p. 249, Singleton).
Still, you might ask if anything can help your heart rhythm normalize - CoQ10, Hawthorn, EFA's / Omegas, etc. ?
posted
For what it's worth-Dr S-of the "lyme disease solution" has had me on zith/bactrim for over a year. I religiously take milk thistle-no liver problems.
Posts: 561 | From eastcoast | Registered: Aug 2006
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Mathias
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posted
Zithromax as mono therapy is a strange choice. I was on it once and it did ZIP for me. Dr. E is well respected though.
Keep in mind that not all LLMD's know everything that there is to know about co-infections.
Most importantly, does the Zithromax seem to be helping at all? Only you know if it is or if it isn't.
A 2nd opinion never hurts (except in your wallet) and it doesn't mean that you need to leave Dr. E. If you are concerned and it sounds like you are, I recommend you go with your instincts and get another opinion.
Your are your own best advocate when it comes to your health.
-------------------- Mathias Posts: 1242 | From New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2004
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
quote: Metallic,
Do I ask her for further testing?
You can try, but co-infection testing is so inadequate that it often will come out negative, even through specializes labs. False negatives still are high. However if your symptoms are minimal, it may make sense to only test the water to see how you respond to treating for Lyme.
quote: She already ran the co's thru a lab called bio reference. Which was over $1,000.00!! (luckily I escaped payment)
Thanks for that note. I hadn't known she was using them instead.
quote: Also, was tested earlier by ID lame duck (Que*t) an no co's.
I was tested through them too and came up negative for just about everything. Although I had a an old IGG EVB, and an antiglidan IgG that was extremely high. Igg 41 showed up on the Lyme Western Blot. There is more, but the point is, it was insensitive.
quote: Can you suggest a good lab then? & do I do it on my own?
Igenex #188 and #189. Go to their website, and you'll find out how to run it. The test is 200 in total. It's worth it to compliment your CD-57, which by the way is a circumstantial indication that you're on the right track. If nothing showed up through Bio-Reference (let me know if something did), then the blot is the way to go for now. Yes, it last month. It was a 45. If I go off abx I will relapse for sure! She said to take AG Immune to help boost my immune system.
If I dont boost the immune, then CD57 will not go up. Its not based on how you feel, but your level of immunities I gu
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
gemofnj
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15551
posted
Mike:
Thanks a bunch for getting back to me. I may get a second opinion as well.
Dr. S, in Howell, NJ could be a possibility and will call and see if he is taking patients. Do you know of him or his ethics?
Posts: 1127 | From atlantic city, nj | Registered: May 2008
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I go to Dr S. PM me if you have questions.
Posts: 262 | From nj | Registered: Dec 2007
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blaze
Unregistered
posted
How do I know which coinfections I have?
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Hoosiers51
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posted
blaze--
You would get tested (Igenex is the best...they have a website), but even then, a lot of doctors go on symptoms since false negatives do occur.
You would need to be seeing an LLMD (see "Seeking a Doctor") though for that level of expertise to be able to know which coinfections you may have if the blood work comes back negative
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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gemofnj
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15551
posted
quote:Originally posted by blaze: How do I know which coinfections I have?
You usually get tested for specific co infections thru a reliable lab that specializes in co infection testing. Not all labs are reliable for co's.
For example: Que*t/Labco*p are not reliable labs for this.
Have you been tested?
Posts: 1127 | From atlantic city, nj | Registered: May 2008
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richedie
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Member # 14689
posted
My LLMD told me IgeneX is best for Lyme and Babesia but they are all pretty much the same for Bartonella.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
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My health greatly improved following treatment by a different llmd.
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