Topic: Epstein Barr, LymeDisease, or Histamine intolerance?
LisaS
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10581
posted
Hi I was just curious if Lyme and Epstein Barr could be confused. I have extreme alcohol intolerance. How do you know if this is caused by lyme or Epstien Barr or lack of the enzyme that breaks down histamine produced by drinking alcohol?
I dont know if this helps but the bands that were positive on my western blot were IGG 41 + and 58+. And on the IGm 23 +. Do any of these indicate Epstein Barr?
I had another test, Epstein-Barr virus AB panel which showed IGG AB 6.49 High and EBV nuclear antigen AB IGG 5.00 High.
My IGG and IGM results are different than yours but I definitely have EBV.
-------------------- Do not take this as medical advice. This comment is based on opinion and personal experience only.
Alaska Lone Wolf Posts: 6155 | From Columbus, GA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Lymeorsomething
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Member # 16359
posted
Lisa-
Some believe that EBV can be confused with lyme. Another poster called Timaca knows a lot about viral issues.
I believe that band 41 may cross react with some viruses.
When I spoke to Igenex about my initial western blot, the doctor there told me that generally speaking only an acute mono episode would trigger a cross reaction and potential false blot.
Personally, I believe that EBV only activates and causes issues in the presence of other immune supressors. EBV in and of itself is staggeringly common--95%+ of the population is exposed to EBV and to HHV-6 for that matter.
EBV could be a piece of a greater puzzle but just a piece (I feel anyway).
-------------------- "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong." Posts: 2062 | From CT | Registered: Jul 2008
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timaca
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posted
LisaS~
EBV and Lyme can be confused in that the symptoms are basically the same. You cannot tell the difference between a chronic viral infection (like EBV) and a chronic lyme infection by the symptoms.
So, you have to rely on lab tests to some extent to see what you are ill with.
You posted your WB test results for lyme. Do you know your EBV test results?
I do not know if either condition causes alcohol intolerance.
Best, Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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LisaS
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10581
posted
Im not sure if my Drs ever did an Epstien Barr, but Im sure they did over the 15 years it took them to diagnose me with lyme! I need to get all my old records, the ones I had I gave to my LLMD. But I cant afford to go to him now.
Alcohol intolerance is a symptom of Epstein and Lyme. It can also be caused by not having enough of a certain enzyme that breaks down alcohol in your intestines. I really wish I knew. I cant stand not being 100% sure what I have. But I googled alcohol intolence because thats a sypmtom that doesnt seem to relate to every disease like a lot of the lyme symptoms.
posted
Lyme Disease Symptoms List 1. Unexplained fevers, sweats, chills, or flushing 2. Unexplained weight change--loss or gain 3. Fatigue, tiredness, poor stamina 4. Unexplained hair loss 5. Swollen glands: list areas____ 6. Sore throat 7. Testicular pain/pelvic pain 8. Unexplained menstrual irregularity 9. Unexplained milk production: breast pain 10.Irritable bladder or bladder dysfunction 11.Sexual dysfunction or loss of libido 12.Upset stomach 13.Change in bowel function-constipation, diarrhea 14.Chest pain or rib soreness 15.Shortness of breath, cough 16.Heart palpitations, pulse skips, heart block 17.Any history of a heart murmur or valve prolapse? 18.Joint pain or swelling: list joints_____________ 19.Stiffness of the joints, neck, or back 20.Muscle pain or cramps 21.Twitching of the face or other muscles 22.Headache 23.Neck creeks and cracks, neck stiffness, neck pain 24.Tingling, numbness, burning or stabbing sensations, shooting pains 25.Facial paralysis (Bell's Palsy) 26.Eyes/Vision: double, blurry, increased floaters, light sensitivity 27.Ears/Hearing: buzzing, ringing, ear pain, sound sensitivity 28.lncreased motion sickness, vertigo, poor balance 29.Lightheadedness, wooziness 30.Tremor 31.Confusion, difficulty in thinking 32.Diffculty with concentration, reading 33.Forgetfuiness, poor short term memory 34.Disorientation: getting lost, going to wrong places 35.Difficulty with speech or writing 36.Mood swings, irritability, depression 37.Disturbed sleep-too much, too little, early awakening 38.Exaggerated symptoms or worse hangover from alcohol
Does any of this sound familiar?? Have you read Dr C's Western Blot explanation?
from DR C's WB:
23-25: Outer surface protein C (osp C).
41: Flagella or tail. This is how Borrelia burgdorferi moves around, by moving the flagella. Many bacteria have flagella. This is the most common borreliosis antibody.
58: Heat shock protein.
In my clinical experience, if a patient has symptoms suspicious for borreliosis, and has one or more of the following bands, there is a very high probability the patient has borreliosis.
These bands are 18, 22, 23-25, 28, 30, 31, 34, 37, 39, 41, 83, and 93.
This is true regardless of whether it is IgG or IgM..
----------------------------------
Here is his update written sometime around 2005.
"The significant antibodies, in my opinion, are the 18, 23-25, 28, 30, 31, 34, 39, 58, 66 and 93."
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Lymetoo has it right here. However, to make it a very simple explanation...
Almost everyone has EBV. Something like 85% of the adult population. Did you ever have Mono in the past? That's epstine-barr. However, in most healthy people, after the initial infection, the virus reverts to a dormant state and doesn't give the host problems for the rest of their life. However, when someone's system is busy dealing with a pathogen like Lyme (or co-infections) its easy for herpetic virus types to "wake up", and add their problems to the mix.
Epstine Barr (EBV), CMV, HHV-6 and the like can cause a lot of the same symptoms as many bacterial tick-borne pathogens. It is often necessary to take care of other pathogens, and then attack herpetic virus types in order to beat them back into submission, as it were.
Thus, many people with Lyme have an active viral infection, but they are two distinct agents, not simply one being mistaken as another, more often than not.
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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Lymeorsomething
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True. I really feel that common viral co's are back-seat drivers and not the main antagonist...
-------------------- "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong." Posts: 2062 | From CT | Registered: Jul 2008
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timaca
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Member # 6911
posted
Blackstone~ I couldn't have said it better myself! Good explanation.
And to add to the viral testing, make sure you get tested for mycoplasma pneumonia and chlamydia pneumonia. They can cause the same symptoms as lyme and viral infections.
And yes, you can have more than one pathogen causing you problems.
Best, Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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I don't understand why your postive bands on your Western Blot results could indicate EBV.
I think you may mean that EBV and other viruses can give false positives on the Western Blots? As far as I know, the only bands susceptible to false postives from viruses are the 30 & 31 bands (which is why Igenex has the "30-31 kDA confirmation" test).
Since you did not have any postives on the 30 or 31 bands, I don't think any EBV or other viruses could affect your western blot results. However, you should probably confirm with your LLMD and/or by calling Igenex.
Since as Blackstone and Timaca discussed, reactived EBV and other viruses tend to be fairly common with Lyme, I also strongly suggested you get tested for EBV, HHV-6, CMV, and HSV.
I underwent Valcyte (antiviral) treatment under Dr. Montoya at Stanford, and my LLMD is currently treating my viral issues.
Here is Dr. Montoya's site about these viral issue and what tests to get. Dr. Montoya has found Focus Diagnostics to be the best lab for these viral tests.
Feel free to ask me any more questions or PM me for more info.
Good luck!
Erica
Posts: 408 | From California | Registered: Apr 2008
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timaca
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Member # 6911
posted
Actually, Erica, it does appear that viral infections (acute)can cause false positive IgM Western Blot tests for lyme. Not just affect certain bands like band 30 or 31. I don't think these articles talk about chronic viral infections...I don't think that has been studied yet...
The last article is actually pretty easy reading, and states that if one does not progress in producing antibodies to Bb (meaning making IgG antibodies) then one should look for another diagnosis....
Best, Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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I don't know what nationality you are (I don't need to know!) but a good number of people of Asian descent have a genetic polymorphism that that prevents them from properly breaking down one of the metabolites of alcohol, acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde dehydrogenase is the enzyme that breaks down acetaldehyde from alcohol, but some people of Asian descent have I guess kind a mutation of the enzyme.
So they can have a small amount of alcohol and develop flushing, itching, swelling, drowsiness, fast pulse, lightheadedness, etc. So not so much an intolerance but inability to naturally break it down.
Lymeorsomething
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Member # 16359
posted
I think that care should be taken not to make elevated common viral titers the panacea of chronic illness...95% of the pop is exposed to most of these...
Timaca, can you repost your studies suggesting viral cause of lyme false positives?
Also I'm just wondering how Valcyte users have done? Anyone make significant progress or experience significant sides?
Thanks.
-------------------- "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong." Posts: 2062 | From CT | Registered: Jul 2008
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timaca
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I'm running out the door, so this will be a quick post...
Lymeorsomething~ I posted a few links in my previous post about viral infections causing false positive lyme WB (IgM). Check those out. If you do a simple google search on "EBV false positive IgM lyme western blot" you'll come up with some links yourself. Again these are primarily acute viral infections causing the false positive IgM WBs. However, studies haven't been done on chronic viral infections.
In a small study of 1 (me)...I had very high antibody titers to several viruses, and I had a screaming positive IgM western blot for lyme (lots of bands) with only ONE band (41) positive on the IgG. This makes me think that it is likely that the viruses were causing the IgM to be positive (false positive). For if it were a true lyme infection I should be converting to IgG...my last two IgGs had only band 41...
Now, in the past I did have lots of IgG to lyme...but with all the antibiotics I've had, perhaps I've killed off the lyme and am now dealing with viruses and Cpn (my theory).
And yes, 95% of the population is exposed to these viruses. So, they can reactivate in those of us who are ill....and have a suppressed immune system from lyme, stress, whatever....
SO, if you have a very high antibody titer to the viruses, then you have to consider reactivation.
With regard to valcyte users....I know 2 who have gotten totally well. I myself improved greatly, but did not get totally well. We have noticed high antibody titers to Cpn so I am on doxy for that, and also acyclovir because my viral antibody titers went back up while being off valcyte...
Celtic~ You can't tell by symptoms whether you are dealing with lyme or viruses....the symptoms are the same. Thus your best clue is your history, your symptoms AND lab tests. Get tested for the following, then whatever looks obvious, treat.
Best, Timaca
If you have been ill with various multi-systemic symptoms and the doctors have run many tests on you and cannot figure out what is wrong, then consider getting these tests done.
Getting tested at Focus Diagnostics Lab can be a bit of a problem, unless your doctor has signed up for an account with them. Here's some links as to how to get the testing done. These links are at the HHV-6 website, and you must sign in to view the posts.
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