posted
In Steven Buhner's book, Healing Lyme, pg 175 he recommends Andrographis, Astragalous, & Eleuthero (but only from HermPharm).
I suffer with extreme chronic fatigue; disabled, can't work, bedridden, and barely stand long enough to brush my teeth....really bad at this level for about 3 yrs.
Has anyone from this level of disability acheieved meaningful benefit with the above recommendations? If so, I'd love to hear your insights on your experiences with it, thank you.
Posts: 495 | From SF Bay area, CA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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Have you have been on the core protocol?
Have you been evaluated for lyme &/or coinfections?
Have you had any treatment for lyme or any other chronic infections?
You can probably start slow on the Siberian Ginseng now as it can help right away while you figure out which way is up. However, I'd read the entire book before adding anything else.
Astagalus is only for acute infections. It can really wire someone who has had CFS for so long and may be too stimulating to the immune system. He goes into this at the beginning of the core protocol.
Andrographis is wonderful. But it can make you very tired at first, so you need to be prepared for that.
Still, it's best to have a good evaluation with a LLMD so you know just what you are dealing with. Please reply as to whether you've had diagnoses for chronic infections (as many with CFS have had).
I think you are close to turning a corner here but there are some specifics to iron out first. What is suggested on p. 175 is for those who have already done the core protocol and who have acute onset of fatigue that lasts for several days.
As you've had severe fatigue for 3 years, it may take a different approach. But I think you are close to finding that.
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[ 18. September 2008, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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Trying to piece the puzzle together to know what to say in response to your questions, I have gathered key excerpts from some of your previous posts.
This will help others who might come along and need this background before answering your questions above.
I think you need to be sure to address the infections, not just the symptom of fatigue.
It seems like you first saw your LLMD just last month. Was a plan suggested? However you do it, you need to start at the beginning - and get expert advice on what comes first - that's my take.
Topic: Can Igenex Test Results Estimate Length of Time W/Disease?
posted 16 August, 2008 09:39 PM
I don't recall a rash. I had a tick bite over 40 yrs ago in South Georgia. However, with Babesia Duncani it indicates something also happening while living here in Northern Ca.
I have been very sick a very long time; bedridden the better part of past 3 years. Symptoms are severe. I can barely stand long enough to brush my teeth, lots of pain, teeth pain, cognitive problems, light/sound sensitivities, etc.
posted
Buhner recommends astragalus only for people who received their first bites recently. For people with long term infections it can create big problems.
-------------------- Just because it' s not nice doesn' t mean it' s not miraculous. --Terry Pratchett Posts: 121 | From Nazareth, PA | Registered: May 2008
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I was diagnosed with CFS for 1 1/2 years before I found out I had lyme. I had an acute case of mono and never recovered but had symptoms for probably 5 years. I think I got Lyme in MD, where I'm from, though I haven't lived there in 7 years. When you moved to CA were you sick?
I also think my immune system was able to fight off lyme to an extent until I got stressed and mono. Since treating the lyme with abx, I am MUCH more fatigued.
I just started a thread on the herbs as I read the book and bought the core protocol. I have only been taking for a few days but they are definitely making me more fatigued. I think they work but I made the mistake of starting with all of them at once. I also think for CFS other things are more useful, especially for where you are right now.
I don't know what you take but thyroid and adrenals need to be treated. I'm on T3, T4, and hydrocortisol. I also take Addrenal Support and Rhiodola by Gaia Herbs(Buhner's brand I think). Intramuscular B-12 is very helpful too. You can ask your LLMD for a script of this.
Posts: 348 | From maryland | Registered: Jul 2008
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
It's complicated... Do you have high Epstein-Barr levels? You may have CFS along with Lyme.
I had CFS back in the 80's & I didn't have Lyme then. I was about 28 years old. I took astragulus back then & it helped me alot.
I've read some of Buhner & he doesn't recommend astragulus for long term Lyme.
I'm not sure about the other herbs... I was doing the Cowden protocol.
Have you had any tests to see what is causing the fatigue. Some of the other viruses may be a problem like herpes, coxaski (spelling?) or mycoplasmas.
It would be good to know exactly what you are dealing with so you can figure out a way to treat it. I don't know too much about the co-infections.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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1. Have you have been on the core protocol? Reply: No, I haven't.
2. Have you been evaluated for lyme &/or coinfections? Reply: Yes, I am seeing an LLMD; received my Igenex results about a month ago, positive WB and positive Babesia Duncani.
3. Have you had any treatment for lyme or any other chronic infections?
Reply: My LLMD has outlined the following 3 phase treatment plan for me estimated to be apprx a 3 year plan.
PHASE 1: (estimated to be apprx 5-6 wks) is improving my elimination system (w/herbals, foot detox, lymphatic treatment) and stabilizing severe inflammation factors (w/Cortef), & Wobenzym.
PHASE 2: Treat Digestive Candida & Parasites. I don't yet have specifics on what this will entail or how long.
PHASE 3: Treat Lyme & Babesia Duncani.
I should emphasize my LLMD's reason for delaying and having a multiphase treatment plan in my situation is my very weakened and fragile condition. He was concerned that my body is not yet capable of handling elimination of pathogen die-off. So, we are first working on the plumbing and dealing with the lower hanging fruit.
In the meantime I have bought books and trying to educate myself about treatment options so I can be a full particiapting part of my treatment team. In other words it is not my plan to venture off the reservation of my LLMD's treatment plan other than supportive things.
Like for example, he said I needed do as much as I could to help lymphatics, especially since I am bedridden. Phase 1 is designed in part to get lymphatics functioning better. While I have done all that he suggested, and will continue to do so, I also read on this board the benefits of a Chi-Swing Machine to assist lymphatics, so I orderd one.
MANDY614, you asked if I was sick when I moved to CA (about 40 yrs ago). Yes, I was sick. I had extreme fatigue and just didn't feel well and slept a lot. I could barely make it through the day at school. I would come home and go straight to bed and sleep, waking up only to help with supper, do my homework, and back to bed. At the time I had no clue any of it might have been associated with the tick bite I had. In those days no one knew.
I have no way of knowing for sure, but I think I got lyme in South GA and then later got Babesia Duncani here in CA. My LLMD said the county where I live has quite a bit of it here. So much that he used to have an office here.
So the bottom line is that my purpose in asking about the the Buhner recommendations on pg 175 was regarding things I might be able to do help with the symptom of severe chronic fatigue.
I would appreciate any suggestions for that, thanks:)
Posts: 495 | From SF Bay area, CA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
My acupuncturist who deals with many Lyme patients and has lyme himself disagrees with Buhner about recommending astragalus only for people who received their first bites recently.
He does not feel it is harmful for people with long term infections and in fact for people with spleen discomfort (that would be me) he thinks it is good to take astragalus in a combination remedy with red root.
At some point when I finish my current bottle of red root I will be trying this combo out.
jam if you have the extra money can you see a lyme literate naturopath as well as a LLMD? I think it would be really helpful for you if you could afford it. It might really be helpful for detoxing purposes and building your body and energy levels back up.
You could have picked up Babesia Duncani in any state in the USA and the different kinds of Babesia also cross test.
I think you will love your new chi machine just make sure you start out really slow with it doing only 5 minutes a day on the "normal" speed for a while. I love my new machine and feel like it was money well spent.
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posted
Thanks Angelica. It would be nice to be able to see an LLMD and LLNP, but not sure that I can do it financially or physically. At some point I may need to consult with an LLNP to help educate myself more with things.
I have bought some books (Cure Unknown, Top 10 Lyme Treatments, The Lyme Solution, and Healing Lyme). So, DH and I have our work cut out for us reading. Once I can wrap my mind around what what I have and what is happening to me, I could then have a better results consultation. Right now I don't have my sealegs with it all.
My ChiMachine arrived, thank you so much for sharing the purchasing code with me. It saved $10! I used it for the first time today. I remembered your previous post on it, and did it for only 5 minutes on the default mode. I may even reduce it lower to start with.
I have been researching today on different sites' recommendations for general use. I found some tips that are beyond the brochure that came with our unit. The following is a brief summary of a couple different site recommendations.
1. Do not use within one hour of eating.
2. Gently stretch before using machine.
3. Drink 4-6 oz of water before use to hydrate body.
4. Remove shoes if possible for more freedom of movement.
5. The bony part of ankles should extend beyond the beyond the ankle cup holders.
6. Relax for 1-2 minutes and deep breathe before starting machine (allows time for blood pressure to adjust and relax)
7. During use:
(a) keep eyes closed or use a night mask (or cloth over eyes) deepens relaxation state. It keeps light from stimulating the eye's optic nerve. Best to do in a quiet room away from TV, people, sounds; soft music ok.
(b) consciously relax muscles as much as possible to allow free flowing movement.
(c) deep breathe abdominal muscles during treatment will help the body relax and better oxygeniate.
(d) The ideal speed for your body type is one where your body is comfortably undulating from the toes to the head.
DO NOT begin at 15-20 minutes or you may feel nauseous or weak legged or have aches and pains. NEVER exceed 20 minutes per session as this will detox the body too quickly in some people and cause imbalance in others. Two daily 15 minute sessions is better.
9. After using the machine:
(a) when the machine stops, lay perfectly still, deep breathe for at least three minutes. Do NOT jump up. This time is when the movement of healing chi energy is felt circulating throughout the body. 40% of the therapeutic effect occurs while the machine is moving. 60% happens in the first few minutes after it stops!
(b) slowly stretch your back by turning your torso from side to side.
(c) roll onto side and then over to onto knees, stretch arms out in front of you and gently "cat stretch" your back.
(d) drink 8-16 oz water and increase water intake for the rest of the day.
[ 18. September 2008, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: jam338 ]
Posts: 495 | From SF Bay area, CA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
I can see from your post that I need to start drinking more water before and after using mine.
Thank you for that information because I had no idea that Chi machine use required more water but that makes perfect sense. Nor did I know to lie there afterwards.
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posted
My wife's been on Andrographis (among other things) for about 9 months (see my other recent post for her protocol). The herbs got rid of her fatigue (and other symptoms too) after about the 5th or 6th month on them. After about 2 months of feeling well, the symptoms came back. Now she has added coconut oil to her regimen.
Everytime she ingests the coconut oil she experiences massive fatigue within an hour.The oil is supposed to be anti-viral, and maybe she's having a virus herx? It would make sense since CFS is thought to be mainly viral in origin.
Also might try monolaurin in the near future once she's feeling a bit better.
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