richedie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14689
posted
Hi all, I was looking for some alternative methods to use while taking antibiotics so I was at my local health food store which carries a product clled Lyme Defense, an interesting combination of herbs and also I picked up Cat's Claw. However, the Cat's Claw is 50% alcohol! I will end up throwing this out. I believe this is the same as Samento but I hope I can find one that does not include alcohol!
Anyone else have trouble finding alcohol free herbs such as this? Is it OK to combine these with your notrmall antibiotics regimine?
Thanks!
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
richedie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14689
posted
bump
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
Carol in PA
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5338
posted
Rich, There are many cat's claw brands that have the powdered form, in capsules.
Yes, this is good to take with antibiotics, as it helps the white blood cells be more active in phaging (eating) bacteria.
Rain-Tree is a good brand. I'm presently taking Source Naturals brand.
Carol
Posts: 6956 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
and I use Vitamin Shoppe brand cat's claw ... but I am following what the herbalist Stephen Buhner recommends and so I am not looking for TAO-free ridiculously expensive "Cat's Claw" which comes in a tincture form.
Vitamin Shoppe has them available in bottles of 300 capsules, which helps when on the Buhner protocol!
ESG
Posts: 424 | From Connecticut, USA | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
richedie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14689
posted
Thanks!
TAO Free? What is that? Bhuner protocol? Who is that?
I have a brand that is a liquid tincture, but contains alcohol. I read the tincture or any liquid form more easily enters the blood and faster. No? It wasn't that expensive - $10. I'll look around this week.
So, this is the same as Samento? You all should look into Lyme Defense - a blend of herbs shown to help Lyme patients and includes Cat's Claw.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
Buhner says the TOA-free type is not his choice and recommends regular cat's claw that contains TOA alkaloids as he says they help the nervous system.
Tinctures, by their very nature, contain alcohol as a preservative. Some may use glycerine but are not as strong.
-
Here are some wonderful ideas for supplements:
This book, by an ILADS member LLMD, has a lot of good information:
richedie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14689
posted
Thanks! Who is Buhner? Does he have a book?
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Healing Lyme by Stephen Harrod Buhner. Amazing book with lots of info about how the spirochettes operate, with good research to back all of it up.
Most of the book is devoted to recommending herbs for Lyme & Co., with a basic protocol that includes cat's claw and then possible additions according to your symptoms.
A note: it's true that he doesn't recommend TOA-free cat's claw, or samento as it is called in some places, but I found that after I took the regular cat's claw that he recommends for a few months, it was a help to switch to the other kind for a while.
Each seems to have its advantages.
I recommend starting out with regular and switching after a few months like I did, as I seem to have had an easier time with the herxing than people do when they start with samento right away.
-------------------- Just because it' s not nice doesn' t mean it' s not miraculous. --Terry Pratchett Posts: 121 | From Nazareth, PA | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
richedie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14689
posted
It seems the TOA free is the best, no? What about the alcohol!?
What Is It? Samento (Pentacyclic Alkaloid Type Uncaria tomentosa) is a powerful medicinal plant, approved as a medicine in Ecuador in 2004. Government officials have allowed 3 drug claims to be used: anti-inflammatory, antimicrobial and immune system modulator.
Some of the beneficial properties of Samento are attributed to the pentacyclic oxindole alkaloids (POAs) that are found in the plant that act on the cellular immune system and demonstrate powerful immune system modulating properties. Samento does not contain the tetracyclic oxindole alkaloids (TOAs) that are found in traditional Cat's Claw. TOAs disrupt central nervous system function and greatly inhibit the effects of the POAs.
Some researchers believe that Samento may be as much as 1,000 times more effective than Cat's Claw. One difference between Samento and Cat's Claw is that Cat's Claw is an immune system stimulant and Samento is an immune system modulator. Also, Samento can be used to treat all autoimmune disorders.
In May 2005, pharmacological studies were conducted in laboratory rodents at the University of Guayaquil, Ecuador. The anti-inflammatory effect study showed that Nutramedix Samento extract inhibits inflammation by 83.8%.
There are no known contraindications, no known side effects and no known interactions with other drugs when using Samento. In May 2005, toxicology studies were conducted on Nutramedix Samento at the University of Guayaquil, Ecuador. No toxic effects were reported even when laboratory rodents received 120,000 times the equivalent human dose.
Liquid vs. Capsules The Samento Liquid Extract is a water/alcohol extract of TOA-free cat's claw. It is made from a TOA-free cat's claw powder that contains 0.5 percent POA.
The Samento 600 mg capsule is made from a TOA-free cat's claw powder that contains 0.5 percent POA, yielding 3 mg (3,000 mcg) POA per capsule.
Physicians working with NutraMedix have reported from their clinical experience that just one drop of the liquid Samento extract is functionally equivalent to one 600 mg powder .
This is not surprising, since most herbalists would agree that a water/alcohol extract is the best way to liberate the bioactive compounds (POAs, quinovic acid glycosides, triterpenes, etc.) from the plant fiber matrix of the powdered herb. Many people who have tried the liquid Samento extract initially experience a Herxheimer (``die-off'') reaction from just one or two drops, twice daily, a clear sign of the potency of the liquid extract.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
I've used both and, personally, I much prefer the regular cat's claw and, by far, it is less expensive.
I could not find medically published research to back up reasons for avoiding TOA. In fact, I found reasons why TOA is important to the nervous system (as stated in the Buhner book and many medical abstracts).
In the book cited below, Singleton also suggests using the regular cat's claw - and suggests taking a few days off every couple of weeks and a week off every now and then.
Still, personal experience may vary.
Again, cat's claw is just part of a suggested protocol, and more as a support agent - not an anti-spirochetal agent. It is never enough to use alone, whichever type one chooses.
There have been numerous changes in cat's claw products (and their marketing ) in the last five years, and some of it has been rather confusing to many consumers and professional health care providers.
Heck, it was even confusing to me--so I had to spread out all the files and journal articles again and review them. I'd like to take some time to solidify the research and the facts as I see them.
I've also uploaded the complete technical data report on cat's claw (that usually sells for $20.00) in PDF format so that readers can review all this compiled research for themselves.
It is well documented that the chemical composition of cat's claw (so far) includes 17 different alkaloids, quinovic acid glycosides, tannins, flavonoids, sterol fractions, and other compounds.
Cat's claw contains a group of oxindole alkaloids with documented biological activities.
The vine bark and the root bark have been consistently, independently assayed to contain the following oxindole alkaloids:
- chart at link.
The first chemical analysis of Uncaria tomentosa was published in 1974.
The leaves and stems of U. tomentosa were found to contain the tetracyclic alkaloids rhynchophylline, isorhynchophylline, mitraphylline, isomitraphylline, dihydrocorynantheine, and the indole alkaloids hirsutine and hirsuteine (Hemingway and Phillipson, 1974; Phillipson et al., 1978).
The presence of the pentacyclic alkaloids pteropodine, isopteropodine, speciophylline, uncarine F, and isomitraphylline in the vine bark of u�a de gato (in both U. tomentosa and U. guianensis) was reported (Montenegro de Matta et al., 1976) early on as well.
Researchers working on the alkaloid fractions ever since have documented the TOA alkaloids rhynochophylline and its isomer, isorhynophylline, in the bark and the root.
They always have been part of cat's claw's naturally-occurring chemicals.
The four U.S. patents filed by Keplinger/Immodal from 1989-1998 indicate that all their samples contained these two TOA alkaloids . . . in fact, they cited the POA alkaloid mitraphylline as having no immune stimulating effect, but the TOA alkaloid isorhynchophylline did stimulate phagocytosis, (saying)
saying, "Phagocytosis was enhanced by pteropodine, isomitraphylline and isorhynchophylline. The strongest stimulation was observed with isopteropodine whereas mitraphylline and rhynchophylline had no effect."
In three of the Keplinger/Immodal patents on these alkaloids, it states:
"Tetra- and pentacyclic oxindole alkaloids, in particular the alloisopteropodine, isomer A, a pentacyclic oxindole alkaloid, are suitable for the unspecific stimulation of the immunologic system, which has been proved by a substantial percental phagocytosis increase in the granulocytic test. . . "
Nowhere in any of that research was it documented that rhynchophylline or the other TOA alkaloids actually lowered immune function; rather, they've been reported to be among the active alkaloids that stimulate the immune system.
Surely if they were testing these TOA alkaloids for their increase in phagocytosis they would have noticed and reported that they actually inhibited phagocytosis instead of raised it?
Instead, they tested these TOA alkaloids and stated that they had no effect on phagocytosis--with the exception of isorhynchophylline, a TOA, which actually stimulated it.
All of the independent research published in five countries that followed, with researchers testing vine and root decoctions and/or whole oxindole alkaloid extracts (all of which would have contained the naturally occurring TOA and POA alkaloids), continued to confirm an in vitro and in vivo immune stimulation effect within the same average percentages.
The average breakdown of the alkaloids as confirmed by independent laboratories testing cat's claw vine bark is represented in the table below.
It has never been proven scientifically that the root or the root bark contains more alkaloids than the vine bark.
In fact, independent lab analysis over the years shows the vine bark contains an equal or greater percentage of alkaloids than the root and/or root bark.
- More charts at link.
. . . many long paragraphs omitted - see at link.
. . .
So let's assume that I'm buying into the new TOA/POA research (that 30% of POA effectiveness is lost in the presence of TOAs). Taking natural vine bark capsules, I'd need to take 30% more to get the same effect as theirs (since it has a very small percentage of naturally-occurring TOAs).
At a price of 4 cents per mg of alkaloids for natural vine bark (versus their $1.85 per mg of alkaloid cost) . . . I could take a lot more than the additional 30% "needed," and still come out way ahead, financially. In fact--based on their prices--I could take 350 times more for the same price. No wonder my eyebrows were in my hairline!
Now, enter the next proprietary, patented cat's claw extract product in the market. Their claim is that their extract is a proprietary, hot-water-extract process (which observes the indigenous use of decoction preparation) that is "100% water soluble, and therefore is 100% bioavailable for absorption while passing through the gastrointestinal tract."
They've filed three U.S. patents on their extraction process. Based on their patents, they basically take 150 grams of raw bark (with all its naturally-occurring POAs, TOAs, and other chemicals) and boil it for 24 hours down to 1000 ml of extract. T
hey then dialyze this extract to remove the high molecular weight fraction (mostly the tannins and solids) and are left with a low-molecular-weight, light-yellow liquid extract (mostly the alkaloids, lipids, glycosides, sterols, etc.).
This extract is then dried by frozen vacuum evaporation, and a powder is produced to make capsules yielding 7.933 � .3.249 mg/ml of the hot water, dialyzed extract.
Their process, as explained in the patents, would conceivably extract the majority of the alkaloids and sterols, leaving behind most of the tannins. However in their marketing of the product, they state that a "naturally occurring class of compounds known as carboxyl alkyl esters is the primary ingredient.
"Carboxyl alkyl esters" (CAEs) are the phospholipid-like compounds that can interact with the cholesterol/phospholipid ration in cell membranes and strongly influence the membrane integrity of cell." To be honest, I haven't taken the time to research these CAEs more thoroughly (yet).
Interestingly, they make no differentiation of TOA or POA alkaloids, or even mention the alkaloids in their marketing materials (however, they are cited in the patent documents).
This company has funded a great deal of clinical research on their product, including various human studies (something that has been lacking in the early cat's claw research, especially the TOA/POA research--which have all been in vitro studies).
Their published research documents the immune stimulating, DNA repair, antitumorous, and cytoprotective effects of their cat's claw product. While it isn't truly "independent" research (as it was funded by the company selling the product), personally, I found this research much more believable.
It validates, reconfirms, and restates much of the biologically-active properties of the early cat's claw research published by independent researchers (who weren't selling cat's claw).
In its own way (and without even trying), it casts more shadows on the controversial POA/TOA research.
Their labeled recommended dose is 175 mg (one capsule) twice daily.
The therapeutic dosages reported in the studies in animals were around 40 mg/kg and 80 mg/kg, and 250-350 mg daily in humans. [at the date article was written] Their product currently retails for $24.95 for 60 capsules (175 mg capsules--not just 20!)
As far as prices go, in my personal opinion, this seems to be much more reasonable if one is looking for a patented, clinically-backed concentrated extract of cat's claw in capsule form. (And no--there is no affiliation between me and this company selling this product!)
I'm just stating my opinion based on what I have seen in the available research and comparing the two new, patented cat's claw products on the market.
Personally, I'll stick with the natural bark products (being an herbalist makes me a bit old-fashioned, I guess).
I've seen too many times where nature has provided us with a great beneficial and biologically-active medicinal plant--and a rich indigenous history of effective use--but some have a compelling need to alter its chemical composition.
The number of compounds present in such plants is staggering, and their interactions are subtle; science can only hope to understand most of them.
I don't believe that science can state, at this point, that cat's claw's "active constitutents" are its alkaloids (or just one group of alkaloids), extract them, and expect them to work as efficiently as the natural form.
We have no clue how the other 300-some-odd phytochemicals work synergistically and in complex chemical reactions with the alkaloids (or with any other single chemical we choose to say is "active").
As long as I know I am getting a good cat's claw vine bark (the correct species of plant, harvested sustainably, and processed without chemicals) with all the natural chemicals that nature put in it, and in the same ratios as are found in the plant, I'm satisfied.
And, I'm saving some money too. But, to borrow a line: "Of course, that's just my opinion--I could be wrong."
a preliminary analysis by Subhuti Dharmananda, Ph.D., Director, Institute for Traditional Medicine 1994
Excerpts:
. . .
If the root bark, which may have relatively unique compounds, is to be used, then the plants must be dug up, and we have one more case of damage to the rain forest plants.
It has been suggested that the upper bark might have the same activity as the root bark, and it is possible, with vines, to collect the tops and still have the plant grow back.
However, a careful analysis of the vine bark must be made and one must be assured of getting just this part (there isn't much bark on this plant).
But, why bother? There are so many established immune-regulating herbs already available that putting great effort into this one seems unappealing.
What about the current research status?
In the U.S., this is being trusted to practitioners of natural medicine untrained or poorly trained in clinical evaluations who are to report on the effects in their patients (who are almost certainly taking other remedies at the same time) under the general heading of conducting a ``clinical trial.''
These practitioners will no doubt claim benefits seen in numerous patients, as they have in the past for each remedy that has been brought out for informal evaluation by practitioners untrained in research methodology.
In Austria, Dr. Keplinger is said to be using a medicine extracted from the vine along with AZT in AIDS patients.
His results (from the past eight years of experience) are being reported not in medical journals but in newspapers, such as El Comercio (Lima). In Peru, researchers are making a sincere effort to analyze the ingredients and effects of the plant.
As reported in journals, the observed effects have been quite limited and the activities can be explained by compounds and mechanisms that do not require one use cat's claw.
Yet, an American distributor says that ``Cat's claw promises to become a major therapeutic agent worldwide in the very near future due to its unusual and significant health-stimulating properties. ``
It is quite unfortunate that the diligent efforts of Peruvian researchers are being largely ignored in favor of the outlandish claims of chiropractors, nutritional consultants, and writers of informal correspondence courses.
Desperate AIDS and cancer patients, as well as others, may be taken in by this (that is, after all, what the effort is all about), and spend their limited resources on this potentially endangered rain forest remedy when better-studied, more effective, and less expensive remedies are available to them.
This is the ongoing problem with alternative medicine: uncritical acceptance of remedies promoted by persons with limited knowledge, but strong financial interests, and unreliable enthusiasm.
If cat's claw is a legitimate contributor to treatment of serious illnesses, then let the scientific knowledge be compiled and analyzed and then compared to what is known about other plant remedies before it is touted as the newest remedy for cancer and AIDS.
- Full article and citations at link above.
============================
As Carol in PA suggests, Rain-Tree has capsules.
They are extremely well thought of regarding quality and efforts for ecological methods, as well as for good fair-trade practices..
[ 22. September 2008, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
richedie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14689
posted
How do I be sure I am getting this?
As long as I know I am getting a good cat's claw vine bark (the correct species of plant, harvested sustainably, and processed without chemicals) with all the natural chemicals that nature put in it, and in the same ratios as are found in the plant, I'm satisfied.
Also, Herbs of Lights makes a product called LYME DEFENSE. Heard of it?????? Any good??? It contains Cat's Claw, some form of Bee scrapings or something and other herbs. It is a tincture so I worry about it having alcohol.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
There are more beneficial substances in the rain forest then just cat's claw. Go to rain tree site and read all the different preparations and what they contain.
The problem, there are so many rain forest items there is very little testing for them.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
klutzo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5701
posted
Despite tons of reading, including Buhner and Cowden, I don't claim to know which form is better.
I can only say that in my case, Cat's Claw did absoulutely nothing, and Samento in capsule form did absolutely nothing, but Samento in tincture form made me herx like there was no tomorrow.
I suspect this may have more to do with differing strains of Borrelia and different coinfections in different people, than the form of the herb, but that is just a blind guess.
I've now been on liquid Samento for four years, and if I stop taking it, within three days I have awful chills that keep me up all night, higher blood pressure, less energy, and an even lousier mood than usual.
klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I believe this is the same as Samento but I hope I can find one that does not include alcohol!
Printer-friendly view of this topic