Topic: Shut sown the cholesterol pathway...simplified
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Okay...I'll simplify the post you were afraid to read....
ONE of MANY pathways Bb takes is the "cholesterol pathway". We know this for certain...FACT.
We know exactly all of Bb's genes, what enzymes it uses and the pathways it takes. It is on the internet.
Bb has lipoproteins in its cell walls which are oxidized via free radicals triggered by TNF alpha which is signalled by IL 1B.
We have to go that route because our own antibodies are damaged ("fab" portion).
TNF alpha and IL 1B are "on" because Bb inhibits the normal defense cell response (NADPH oxidase)in the defense cells where it is "camped out".
Bb has LOTS of ways to protect itself from "oxidative damage" and can even repair that damage to its cell walls via its own cellular pumps! Rebuilds them!
So...instead of damaging the cell walls...
We can prevent the cell walls from forming in the first place
via ***lowering glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase*** which is needed to make NADPH (which, in turn, is needed to make cholesterol)
Translating...
Glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (plus other things) -> NADPH -> cholesterol.
2 things can lower glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase:
DHEA
OR
Mg sulfate (likely relatively high doses needed IV (!) for several sequential days).
Both of the above (DHEA and Mg sulfate) LOWER NADPH which is needed to make cholesterol.
Mg also is "anti-inflammatory" and INactivates HMG CoA reductase...effectively shutting off the cholesterol pathway which IS one of the pathway Bb takes.
NADPH is NOT being oxidized because Bb is preventing NADPH oxidase via its PKCD inhibitor.
***Bb's PKC delta inhibitor damages a tiny portion of another enzyme - p47 of *NADPH oxidase*.
If we can PREVENT the cell walls from forming in the first place - they won't need to be "oxidized" and increase the potential DNA damage to our own cells from excessive ongoing "free radical" damage.
Penicillin is one of many drugs that inhibits cell wall synthesis.
If we inhibit cell wall synthesis, do we end up with cell wall deficient - stealth pathogens/mycoplasm instead?
"Mycoplasmas are unusual among bacteria in that most *require sterols* for the stability of their cytoplasmic *membrane*.
Sterols are acquired from the environment, usually as *cholesterol* from the animal host."
No cholesterol = no Bb pathogen in any form. Can't build its cell wall, can't survive as cell wall deficient - membrane only...it appears.
I suspect Mg SULFATE is the best form.
I can't begin to tell you how angry I am that the KNOWLEDGE of the HUGE DROP in Magnesium levels at the outset of this disease has been ignored.
$$$
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
At what dosage is the magnesium and/or DHEa recommended?
Posts: 61 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2008
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
Marnie forgive me for not fully understanding. Would Penicillin then be a good drug to use if one was going to take antibiotics or not really?
I know that at least one German doctor prefers it for early LD.
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lymeHerx001
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6215
posted
I had my TNK-alpha measured and it came up within range.
And I made for sure I was herxing and feeling terrible that day that the blood was drawn.
So why did I continue to feel that way?
Where there some other cytokines that made me feel bad?
I know there are so many pathways to inflamation.
Posts: 2905 | From New England | Registered: Sep 2004
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
Now I will never be able to ever enjoy my Cowgirl Creamery cheese only diet quite the same.
Martha Stewart can sit around and eat Red Hawk, Mt. Tam and Pierce Pt. all day long and get away with it so why can't I?
You would think with her wreath making and flower gathering she would have Lyme disease by now.
Where is Dr. Atkins when we need him? I hope he did not die of a cholesterol overdose.
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Doses?...follow those given in Germany for starters...UNDER A PHYSICIAN'S CARE and watchful eyes.
The initial decrease in Mg levels at the outset of Lyme (time of rash) = 33% of total body levels. (Romanian abstract). That is a HUGE loss.
Want/need that abstract re-posted?
lymeHerx001 ..assume you mean TNF alpha?
What drug/supplement are you on that is lowering it to normal levels? Many drugs and supplements can do that!
Sis (lyme) was on Humira ($$$) to do the same (lower TNF alpha). It helped with pain and inflammation but did NOT stop the destruction.
Lowering TNF alpha is not enough. In fact, in many ways it is beneficial.
Like so many things in life...some good - too much is harmful.
Angelica...yes, Penicillin looks to be the best "class" of abx.
However...keep this in mind...always...Bb needs Mn - manganese. So does our lactobacillus acidophyllis...(not bothering with spell check)
Which means that our good guys are already likely impacted so it is vital to keep pumping probiotics into your system...ideally with a full glass of water one hour before meals.
You are diluting the stomach acids (with the water) which could destroy the probiotics and allowing them time to reach their destination and then to be "fed" the nutrients as you digest your meal. Follow?
I think, personally, the SAFEST way to go is to restore the body's Mg (and sulfate) levels.
And it is the cheapest.
I think what happened is that: we didn't/don't have enough Mg to "spare" fast enough. The body will only let the mineral levels drop just so far before it has to use other minerals...even dangerous ones...to maintain our pH.
When I came across the NADPH oxidase links...another piece fell into place relating to Bb's PKC INHIBITOR...which sure as heck looks like it IS PKCD = Protein kinase C Delta.
Bb prevents NADPH oxidase (enzyme) from working via INHIBITING p47 - a tiny protein portion of that enzyme.
Those with the HLA-DR gene type are at a disadvantage from the get-go. It appears the DHEA/cortisol ratio is already off.
And those who (like my sis) were misdx'd and given steroid dose packs...whoa.
My daughter (now with painful ocular rosacea)is another example of what happens when the hormone balance is thrown off.
Scottish ancestry = HLA-DR gene type (-> allergies) + Yasmin (BC pill which lowers DHEA further - documented) + stress (divorce, new job = cortisol up) = doctor just told her a couple of days ago...her cortisol level is thru the roof.
DHEA down - cortisol up = balance is off.
Daughter is now scheduled for a CT of her adrenals and has an appt. in Oct. with an endrocrinologist.
She was HAPPY that FINALLY...after about 12 doctors (GP, GYN, allergist, multiple eye doctors...including a flight to the best in the U.S.)...FINALLY her blood work indicated an imbalance and it isn't "all in her head"...
She has gone thru what many of you have had to experience...one doctor to the next...for a year.
Just as I "feel for" my daughter, I also "feel for" my sis who is suffering tremendously and all of you here on this board.
I am truly dedicated to finding the safest, cheapest, most effective CURE for this disease.
I believe it IS possible.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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lymeHerx001
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6215
posted
Yes Marnie. TNF alpha.
I am experiencing trmendous vertigo at the moment. My otolythis in my semi circular canals are doing summersalts.
Either that or my hypothalimus is having a lightning storm.
Which ever everything is jumbled up.
I miss those days of being lucid on Piracetam. Those were the days I would have breezed through your posts.
Posts: 2905 | From New England | Registered: Sep 2004
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lymeHerx001
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6215
posted
Oh I forgot to add that with the vertigo it is very difficult to read. I can only read a scentence before my eyes start jumping around.
Posts: 2905 | From New England | Registered: Sep 2004
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Dawn in VA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9693
posted
Marnie, I am sorry to hear about your daughter's adrenal problems; but GLAD that she/you were able to find a decent endo who did the right tests. Takes a village alright.
Isn't Vita D connected with the cholesterol pathway too? I can't remember exactly... something about low levels of D correlating with high cholesterol, esp. in lymies. But I can't remember the details.
I totally agree that stunting the cholesterol pathway would be superbly beneficial. Gotta watch those IV Mg's though... as you mentioned, folks need to do them under close physician guidence- and perhaps preferably with heart monitoring during the drips to make sure.
Best wishes for sis and daughter-- dawn
-------------------- (The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.) Posts: 1349 | From VA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
A friend told me that Dr. B. said in one of his lectures in 2008 that all lymies need magnesium shots or IVs.
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
"The carbon-fixation cycle forms organic molecules
from CO2 and H2O."
The last step looks to involve Na-ATPase in order for Bb to make its own ATP (perhaps).
"The temperature dependence of the Na,K-ATPase as well of the Na-ATPase reactions depends both on phospholipid acyl chain length
and on cholesterol."
"Cholesterol increased significantly both the enthalpy of activation and entropy of activation for Na,K-ATPase activity and Na-ATPase activity of Na,K-ATPase reconstituted with monounsaturated phospholipids."
Lightheaded can mean your CO2 levels are too low. Bicarbonates are one thing that elevate CO2, but re-read the above. Tetracycline lowers CO2 levels...in addition to working in other ways.
Inhibiting Na-ATPase via lasix...did NOT work for my sis. Legs still edematous, inflammation still present.
It looks like "powering up" the infected cells (Increase ATP in those cells) to send the right signal forward (?)may work.
Since anti-gamma (like lasix) inhibits K,Na-ATPase too...it maybe that INFy is needed and should NOT be lowered.
???
Apparently our CD4 T cells can RELEASE INFy.
If we have them...
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Marnie , Though I truly apprecaite your intellect and willingness to be helpful, I must disagree with your description of this subject as simplified .
I am no superintellect ( do have a college degree ) and find most of your posts useless because I rarely understand the intended message .
It would be wonderful if you had a personal editor who could simplify the concepts so the readers here could apply the info you offer to our afflictions.
Thank you for caring and sharing . We just wish could glean something from your own studies . Paerhaps you can find an assistant who can help you write " The Tip and Mitten " synthesis to LD .
Sorry to disagree, but I personally don't think lowering cholesterol will do much of anything to fight Lyme disease.
Back before he was diagnosed and after losing 30 pounds in a short period of time hubby had low cholesterol. With parasite problems (giardia, ascaris and trichostrongylus diagnosed) and Bartonella undiagnosed hubby had major difficulty absorbing fats -- good fats and bad fats. Chronic gastritis on several scopes.
Anyway, he had low cholesterol. Actually received several fat IV's to bring cholesterol back to normal.
Was also receiving magnesium IV's at the time as well. Both treatments were done in a neurologist M.D. office.
He was also supplementing with DHEA. No matter which hormones he took his hormone tests continued to be messed up (low in most everything) -- lab director said it was obvious that his liver was not converting the hormones as it should do. He tried pregnenolone, testosterone and even estrogen.
At the time with no diagnosis and no treatment -- no antibiotics or herbs either -- can't really say that either treatment did much to help him feel better.
The CoQ10 probably helped more than anything else. This was somewhere in the 6 -12 month period after he first got sick.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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