my PCP called me this morning and said the lab called her late last night and said my WBC were 'critically' low...
my WBC are at a 1.7 the range is (3.5-10).
she said maybe I should stop anti's till I speak with my LLMD...??
is this 'critically' low? I know we have low and high markers all over the place...
just checkin' in...
I didn't take my morning DOXY... should I stop anti's for a few days?
also, my platelet's dropped MORE to 104 (150-450)?
How low is too low on these things?
Is it the anti's or the bugs or both?
should I try and take some immune boosters? suggestions?
Thank you all!
hugs and smiels!
Fawne
p.s.
note- I did have a 102.6 fever a few days back, with the chills, and all....would that make my WBC drop even lower? I still feel OFF since that fever...
-------------------- Energy flows where attention goes~ Posts: 302 | From Kauai | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Ask your LLMD about taking shark liver oil to help bring your WBC up. It really helped my daughter.
Posts: 991 | From California | Registered: Feb 2006
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disturbedme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Yep, that's critically low! The normal is 4.0 - 10.5 usually. Mine's always critically low... Has yours been that way always? It may just be due to the abx.... I'd call your LLMD. He may have you stop them. If the abx are causing your wbc to drop, then stopping them, your wbc will go back up over the course of a week or two.
Mine have been chronically low (in the 2.0 range ALWAYS) for over 6 years, and is NOT due to abx.
-------------------- One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar. ~ Helen Keller
My Lyme Story Posts: 2965 | From Land of Confusion (bitten in KS, moved to PA, now living in MD) | Registered: Jun 2007
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northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Hi Fawne, Sorry about this new development....you have a good lab to call you personally!
What are you taking besides doxy?
Some abx can lower WBC's?
Do you think the fever was a "herx"?
If you did stop today (Sat p.m.), and you called Dr. office on Monday a.m. (allowing for the time change, you could even call earlier),
you would miss 1.5 days of whatever you are taking. Depending on the meds, some would consider this a pulse or intermittent therapy.
How do you feel?
Northstar
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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If it were me, I'd be very concerned and not take the abx. I'd quit them and wait to see what my doctor says. While I want to get rid of the Lyme, I also hate the idea of trashing the rest of my body just to do it.
Let us know what happens. Good luck!
-------------------- ~*~Lyme POW~*~
I will escape. Posts: 100 | From n/a | Registered: Oct 2008
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the lab called my PCP late last night- and then she called me this morning....
I am taking DOXY, MYCOBUTIN, and ZITH....just added DOXY last week...the others I have been on a month...
yea, I think I'll continue to stop till I hear back from my LLMD...
I feel crummy!! more emotionally than anything. Really disconnected and disillusioned! Been crying a lot and sad... Really TIRED and lethargic- can't do much besides lye on the couch... Feel like a dog trying to bite my tail going in circles!!! FOGGY BRAIN!
I did feel that fever was a herx....but maybe it was the flu if my WBC got this low... or maybe the fever brought them this low...???? i dunno....
thanks for your input- really appreciate it!
hugs and smiles~ Fawne
-------------------- Energy flows where attention goes~ Posts: 302 | From Kauai | Registered: May 2007
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Ehrlichia . Can cause acute and chronic presentations . Acute- sudden high fever, severe headaches, very painful muscles, low WBC counts, elevated liver enzymes . Chronic- same, but not as severe . Test with serology, PCR or smear . Treat with doxycycline or rifampin 40 J. J. Burrascano, MD April 24, 2004
I feel this is what has been happening to me this past week....????
hmm...
-------------------- Energy flows where attention goes~ Posts: 302 | From Kauai | Registered: May 2007
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northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7911
posted
That was a great description!!!! I really "got the picture"! So sorry....the anxiety stuff could be the bart herx?
Anyway, I found some info on some abx's and low wbc.
And here is another. This is for mycobacterium avium complex. This one is interesting since they are using a M-W-F pulse schedule for their protocol, which includes rifabutin. So, it suggests that to stop a day or 2 may be ok.
Rifabutin is well absorbed by mouth. Pain in the muscles, inflammation of the eye causing pain and blurriness of vision, and a yellow discoloration of the skin may occur in patients taking high doses of rifabutin (more than 300 mg daily). About 1/3 of the patients taking rifabutin have a low white blood cell (these are cells that fight infection) count (also called neutropenia). This is reversible, and has not been associated with an increased risk of infection.
The incidence of rash, gastrointestinal upset, including nausea and vomiting and abnormalities of liver enzymes is comparable to that of rifampin and like rifampin, rifabutin may also produce a temporary orange-red discoloration of urine, saliva, tears, and contact lenses.
Fever, chills, and a ``flu-like'' illness often occurs on hi-drug doses (usually daily).
Rifabutin is a pill taken by mouth at a standard dosage of 150-300 mg daily or three times weekly in adults.
(I noticed they mention a fever and chills as a side effect...)
And one more on side effects, including vision...
quote: Side-effects of rifabutin can include rash, fever, nausea, low white blood cell and platelet counts and liver inflammation.
There have also been reports of eye problems among people receiving rifabutin, which usually resolve if the rifabutin dose is reduced and inflammation is reduced using steroids[4][5][6].
People taking rifabutin should contact a doctor or an ophthalmologist if they notice any change in vision, blurring or discomfort in bright light, floating spots in the line of sight or redness or pain in the eye.
[ 25. October 2008, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: northstar ]
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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disturbedme
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posted
quote:SO CAN WE NOT HEAL WITH LOW wbc?
HOW SUSCEPTIBLE ARE WE WITH LOW wbc?
IS IT BASICALLY A SIGN OF NO IMMUNITY AT ALL?
Yes, we can heal with a low wbc. Like I said, I've had a chronic low wbc for over SIX years. And I have been doing much better than when I started treatment. The Mepron has helped me a TON too in feeling better. I'd say when I first got ill, I was at 20-30%, after a year of treatment, I was at around 60-70%, and now since adding Mepron, I'm at about 75-80% (though I just started Mepron a couple weeks ago). I still have very low wbc counts.... always in the 2.0 range. Worries me, but there's nothing I can do about it for now. We have no idea what's causing it. My bone marrow biopsy was even normal.
From what I've read and been told by my hema, that when someone has a white blood cell count in the 2.0 or lower range, you are immunocompromised and you need to be careful not to catch a cold or the flu or any kind of illness because your immune system will have a very hard time fighting it off. I've been in the immunocompromised group for years and years.
It doesn't mean no immunity at all. I wouldn't worry in your case since you usually don't have a low wbc count. This is obviously just due to the antibiotics, most likely.
You could have Ehrlichia though, but since this only happened once and just now happened, I wouldn't blame it on that. Also, just so you know, not everyone with Ehrlichia has a low wbc count. Some do, some don't. It really just depends on the bug and how it adapts to our body, etc. The bugs do different things in each of our bodies.
I've also been told that Babesia can cause lower wbc counts as well.
-------------------- One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar. ~ Helen Keller
My Lyme Story Posts: 2965 | From Land of Confusion (bitten in KS, moved to PA, now living in MD) | Registered: Jun 2007
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
Stop the Mycobutin at once. That is the source. If you continue, it can be life threatening.
I recommend stopping all antibiotics, allowing the numbers to normalize, then reintroducing the Doxycycline and Zithromax if you wish to use them again. (I wouldn't personally, I'm not a fan of either drug for late stage infection).
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
TF
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 14183
posted
At some point in my antibiotic therapy (I had lyme, babs, and bart) my white blood cell count got low.
My lyme doc put me on Transfer Factor and checked me again in 2 weeks. It worked great. My count was up that quick. If it had not gone up, I would have had to stop my antibiotics until it did.
I had to do this a few times and then finally the doc decided to just keep me on the Tranfer Factor until the end of therapy.
Perhaps your lyme doc will give you Transfer Factor so you can continue fighting your diseases.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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disturbedme
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posted
TF - it's good to hear Transfer Factor helped your low WBC. I was just put on Transfer Factor as well. I can't wait to see if it's done any good with raising it. I'll be surprised if it does since I've had a low wbc count for over six years, but if it raises, that'll be amazing and awesome.
-------------------- One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar. ~ Helen Keller
My Lyme Story Posts: 2965 | From Land of Confusion (bitten in KS, moved to PA, now living in MD) | Registered: Jun 2007
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
I highly recommend Transfer Factor Plus, especially during a significant drop in WBC levels.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
posted
Hubby's WBC dropped once he got to full dose on Rifampin -- he started at 75 mg and took about 4 months to get to 600 mg daily.
WBC was usually around 4.0 - 4.5 where it has been for a couple of years. When he got to 450 mg the WBC started dropping -- was at 2.9 when he got to 600 mg.
LLMD wanted him to decrease Rifampin. Hubby wanted to stay at 600 mg and retest before decreasing dose -- had bounced back to 4.0 by then. Has remained in the 4.0 - 4.5 range for the last 6 weeks while staying at 600 mg on Rifampin.
So it could have been a temporary drop for you as well and might have bounced back if you had continued the med. Hubby's LLMD had him switch from monthly CBC's to every two weeks so we could continue monitoring WBC closer.
This is not medical advice, just my opinion based on hubby's experiences.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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O.K.----I'm not sure that I understand!!!! I may be totally over reacting due too my medical background. BUT.......
WITH A WHITE COUNT OF 1.7----YOU NEED TO BE IN A HOSPITAL and in isolation!!!! Forgive me, but I can't believe that your Dr. did not admitt you!
Right now you are so suseptible to every bacteria and viral bug out there and you DO NOT have enought WBC's to fight anything off. It could easly be life-threatening!!
Please-----call which ever Dr. that called you and share your knowledge and demand to be admitted until your count comes back up!! This actually shocks the heck out of me! This is usaully what will take the life of a patient with cancer, not the cancer itself!!!
My word----call A.S.A.P.!!!!!! PLEASE
Posts: 351 | From Georgia | Registered: Feb 2008
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disturbedme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12346
posted
scared08 - Nice way to scare the original poster half to death....
I think the doctor knows what s/he is doing. In my non-professional opinion, I don't see it as a big deal either since this has never happened to her before and it's most likely due to the abx and as soon as she stops them for a short time, they will raise back up to their normal, healthy level, which shouldn't take long. And for that, it doesn't seem necessary to admit someone over.
Like I said, I've had chronically low wbc counts for over SIX years (2.0 - 2.9) and was never ONCE told I'd need to be hospitalized. My hematologist didn't even bring it up. He did say I was immuno-compromised though.
-------------------- One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar. ~ Helen Keller
My Lyme Story Posts: 2965 | From Land of Confusion (bitten in KS, moved to PA, now living in MD) | Registered: Jun 2007
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Thank you so much for your concerns. I didn't come on here for a few days--deliriously lying around...
GOOD NEWS- my WBC are back up to 3.1!!!! yippie!
LLMD recommended shark liver oil and the transfer factor... I'm a vegetarian, so I am not going to take those...looking for other ways...??
I am still off all drugs, but LLMD wants my to start zith again...
I am getting discouraged with these drugs....
I feel so much better without them...
hugs and smiles!
Fawne
-------------------- Energy flows where attention goes~ Posts: 302 | From Kauai | Registered: May 2007
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disturbedme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12346
posted
KauaiGoddess -
I am also vegetarian, but I am taking fish oil and Transfer Factor. I am doing what I have to to get myself better. I wasn't happy about having to take this stuff, but you can't be compassionate and help other animals if you don't help yourself first (of course you could be vegetarian for other reasons, but even if it's for health reason, then it still makes sense to take care of yourself first and foremost). You know what I mean?
-------------------- One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar. ~ Helen Keller
My Lyme Story Posts: 2965 | From Land of Confusion (bitten in KS, moved to PA, now living in MD) | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Congrats on the WBC count! Mine was at 2.4 when tested a few weeks ago and I just started shark liver oil. The concept of SLO is disturbing on a number of levels.
I agree with you, disturbed_me; you have to take care of yourself to take care of others. I'm a former vegetarian, but right now I'm in survival mode. thank you sharks!
Posts: 227 | From Northern CA (bitten in Illinois) | Registered: Jan 2008
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I'm so happy to see that your wbc's came back up and that you're okay! If I scared you with my post, I am sorry.
Honestly, your count scarded me to death!! Anything below 2 is very dangerous regardless if this is normal for someone else or not. So I'm glad that you're o.k.!
DISTURBEDME---"nice way to scare orignal poster to death." In looking back at my post, yes I went to far and I am sorry for that.
Her count scared me, and I just typed what my concern was without thinking.
It is a big deal. In my profesional opinion. I was a nurse for 15 years, and although I have been totally disabled for 15 years now and have forgotten a lot, I do know some about the medical field.
Yes, most Dr.'s know what they're doing and MANY do not take things as serious as they should or once did!!!
With working a long side with many young, fresh out of school Dr.'s and many that have been in practice for 30 years, there is a BIG difference in how they choose how to treat a patient or a situation.
I have seen a lot in my career, enough to scare anyone.
This is for everyone!!! DON'T EVER ASSUME THAT YOUR DR. ALWAYS KNOWS WHAT HE/SHE'S DOING!! Disturbedme, if that upsets you, I'm sorry.
I'm certainly no expert, but have seen and dealt with many things both as a nurse and a patient. It can be life threating to have a WBC that low.
I do not comment that strongly on something I don't know about as there is many things that I am not certain of.
Posts: 351 | From Georgia | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
Scared08, it takes a very big person to say they're sorry. I like you already!!!
I also agree that the medical world is a scary place, and many doctors/nurses do not treat properly.
Told our LLMD last week that every time we go to the hospital, I realize we're only alive by the grace of God.
Lots of good people in the medical field, but lots of bad ones too, and so many mistakes I can't believe it!
Congrats Kauaigoddess on your bounceback to good numbers. Keeping all of you in prayer for health and happiness.
-------------------- Wishing You Showers Of Blessings! Lyme since Fall 1983 = Diagnosed Summer 2008 IV Rocephin 7 weeks Stopped due to drug fever Now doxycycline "For I know the plans I have for you...plans to give you hope and a future." Jeremiah 29:11 Posts: 430 | From Sunny South | Registered: Jul 2008
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THANK YOU!!!! I was feeling pretty bad when I read that; I didn't mean to go that far and scare anyone.
Bless your heart, you've had Lyme for 25 years before being diagnosed!!!! You must have been, and probably still are so frusterated! How are you doing?? If you don't mind, what symptoms have you experienced over the years?
It took me 15 years to be diag., and that was a little over 2 years ago.
So are you up early, or up late--LOL?? You're in the same time zone as I am unless your in the far southern part of Fl. I'm right on the border of Fl.
Also, holy cow are you right about the hospital!!! I just stopped going to the E.R. as I have run into some Dr.'s that have no business being in the medical field!!! Very scary! Not to say that there aren't good ones out there, but it's pretty risky at the hospital where I live I'll tell ya!
Many blessing to you dear!!!
Posts: 351 | From Georgia | Registered: Feb 2008
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
An endocrinologist may help.
Get your DHEA level checked. It stimulates the immune system. This is supposed to be in balance with *cortisol which supresses the immune system*.
Also check your thyroid...for antibodies to it/hypothyroid.
The thyroid looks to trigger DHEA.
A good complete workup of your hormone levels may be helpful.
Adrenal steroids (aldosterone which controls Na channels, cortisol and DHEA, and the androgens (and thyroid) for starters.
I hope you were taking a ton of probiotics.
Yes?
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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thanks for sharing your opinion on the vegetarian aspect there. I do see what your saying...good point...
scared08-
no worries for posting what you said- it did come off strong but you WERE concerned! and that's valid...it didn't freak me out, just took it in with all the other opinions- I APPRECIATE your response and time to care....
THANK YOU!!! I completely agree with you about some doctors not taking things seriously enough when they should!!! I've encountered many-
I must admit I was quit concerned, trying to understand the severity of it- I didn't leave the farm (not like I felt like it) I live out in the bunnies! except I left to re-test!!!!
Melodymaker- nice name! thanks for your wishes!!!
Marine- thanks for the suggestion about the hormones- yeah I was going to get a urine panel done for them all but the lab ****sed me off because they charged my credit card when they sent the kit to me-without telling me-- ha ha - caught me on an 'off' day- ha h ah ah --
thanks!
I am today going to a fair hearing for my two antibiotics that I am trying to get covered by my insurance- it's been almost a year of appeals- and now I am here....wish me LUCK!!
thanks again!! you ALL are so GGRREEEATTT!!!!! big hugs! and smiles!
Fawne
-------------------- Energy flows where attention goes~ Posts: 302 | From Kauai | Registered: May 2007
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glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
How about asking your dr to refer you to an immunologist so he can test your immune system. I had to suggest this to my very competent LLMD some years ago and she agreed.
Turned out my immune system was low even tho my wbcs were around 10. Maybe some IVIG and IVC could help.
I agree, we cannot totally rely on drs, we have to take charge ourselves. I wouldn't be here if I hadn't. Be well, Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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