posted
I am curious, people keep talking about how it's only going to get worse with treatment...does this mean on abx? Why? Tell me all you know cuz I'm supposed to start treatment next week... thanks!
-------------------- The Lord is my strength and my song
CDC/Igenex- Positive IGG 31+/- 34+/- 41++ IGM 23-25+++ 31+ 34+/- 39+/- 41+ Posts: 50 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
DebAz
Unregistered
posted
What everyone is talking about is a reaction called the Herximier reaction. I think i spelled it right. A scientist named it and found it stating that while your ABX kills off the bacteria it can build up and in a way line up and over flow or .. in other words the amount that needs to be sent through the liver and other organs to be sent out of the body gets built up and there is too much to filter out .. So it therefore ends up where we feel worse during this period. Detox methods of some sort that can help sometimes help some and others just have to wait it out. My doc says lots of hot baths with epson salt or lots of water and vitamin C or there are many docs and patients trying many things because the HERX reaction can be wosrse than the illness itself and can really get you down. Depending on what you take. >Read about the MEPRON Blues in the MEPRON Posts and some ABX cause depressive side affects at times and be on the watch and not only tell your doc but stopping them for just a few days clearns up those sorts of issues. After being on here I keep reading bout depression and even suicidal thoughts and I know that it happened to me and it only took a few days off the ABX for it to clear up.. And those who do not know that and are told to tough it out will just keep going and then .. Who knows. Just keep an eye on yourself.. And do some diggng on what helps support the HERX reaction .. For some it is only short lived and for some it is months of Herx and for me I even Herxed for 2 years once. But I think that my doc let me go too long on that ABX. no need to suffer that long. Try something else. I say. GOOD LUCK>
IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
Lyme is a spirochetal, gram-negative bacteria. It is very toxic and when under stress becomes even more so. Liver support and excellent self-care are vital.
Some doctors do not want patients to herx. Be sure to ask your doctor about what to expect and how to make that as comfortable as possible.
Please don't get frightened. Nothing is as bad as having lyme the rest of your life. There may be some rough patches, knowing in advance helps get pieces in place but, hopefully, you will do fine. Keep your eyes on the prize.
The doctor you will be seeing is well-seasoned. With proper liver support this can be easier. Massage helps, too.
I hope you can order the Singleton book today as it's the very best guide for you. Each patient should be given a copy with their test results, that's how strongly I feel about its helpfulness.
The Herxheimer reaction (also known as Jarisch-Herxheimer or Herx) occurs when large quantities of toxins are released into the body as bacteria (typically Spirochetal bacteria) die, due to antibiotic treatment.
Typically the death of these bacteria and the associated release of endotoxins occurs faster than the body can remove the toxins via the natural detoxification process performed by the kidneys and liver. It is manifested by fever, chills, headache, myalgia (muscle pain), and exacerbation of skin lesions.
Duration in syphilis is normally only a few hours but can be much longer, up to months or years, for other diseases. The intensity of the reaction reflects the intensity of inflammation present.
The Herxheimer reaction has shown an increase in inflammatory cytokines during the period of exacerbation, including tumor necrosis factor alpha, interleukin-6 and interleukin-8.[1][2]
- Full article at link above.
=================
Specific to lyme/TBD treatment, from Treepatrol's Newbie Links:
The liver is a vascular, secretory and metabolic organ that resides in the upper abdomen. It receives a dual blood supply from the hepatic artery and the portal vein, and is by far our most important metabolic and detoxification organ.
The liver metabolizes (burns) all three macronutrients (fats, carbohydrates and proteins), providing energy, vitamins, minerals and other nutrients.
Composed of thousands of tiny functional units called lobules, this organ filters over 1,500 ml of blood per minute. If not functioning well, toxins spill into the bloodstream or out into the bile causing inflammation and oxidative stress.
The liver is also a major storage organ. Nutrients are extracted, converted and stored. For example, excess sugars are converted into glycogen and stored for later release.
The same is done for fat-soluble vitamins, other essential nutrients (proteins and fats etc.) and even blood. Moreover, the liver can also store toxins, hopefully for later elimination.
The liver is responsible for the creation and secretion of bile, necessary to emulsify and digest fats and carry away wastes. It also synthesizes various immune and blood proteins necessary for life processes.
Complex chemical substances that enter the liver are neutralized in one of three major ways:
* They are eaten by Kupffer cells.
* They are captured and dissolved into the bile, produced in the gall bladder from components supplied by the liver, and excreted to the intestine
* They are chemically dismantled, tagged and sent off by the enzyme systems for elimination.
Kupffer cells are large specialized macrophages (white blood cells) which phagocytize (eat) bacteria, endotoxins, antigen-antibody complexes and other liver poisons. This makes the liver an important immune system organ.
These cells chew up most of the larger particles that enter the liver. However, they produce dangerous oxidative free radicals as a by-product of this process, and the liver requires a sufficient supply of protective antioxidants to neutralize them.
The liver's cytochrome P450 system works on complex chemicals. As substances such as hormones, drugs, alcohol, carcinogens, pesticides and inflammatory chemicals like histamine enter the system, enzymes oxidize and break down the intruders (a process called phase I detoxification).
After that, the liver chemically tags and changes the breakdown products so that they can be excreted (called phase II detoxification). This process also results in the release of free radical poisons, so it is important to supply the body with the protective anti-oxidant herbs mentioned above.
The liver synthesizes more than a liter of thick, viscous, heavily pigmented and bitter bile each day to capture, neutralize and carry away poisons, acids, dying red blood cells, drugs, mucus, cholesterol, lecithin, mucin, chemicals, pigments, salts, and minerals.
Once released by the gall bladder into the intestine, the bile helps emulsify and digest fats.
The condition in which the liver is congested or sluggish is known as cholestasis. This often occurs because the bile has become too thick and loaded down with mucus and inflammatory toxins.
Of course, evaluation and regulation of dietary habits--especially fat intake--should be the initial and continuing treatment method for permanent resolution of this condition.
By the way, a lot of mystery concerning how your body reacts to things is eliminated if your realize that sometimes herbs or drugs (and even common foods) help activate individual cytochrome P450 enzymes, which speeds removal of molecules.
They can also inhibit the action of these enzymes, which can be useful for keeping certain chemical substances in the general circulation for a longer period of time. The importance of this varies.
If we have a "bad guy" chemical in our blood, speeding removal is good. However, if we have a necessary or "good guy" chemical in our blood, speeding removal would be bad. In the same way, if we have a "bad guy," slowing removal would be bad and if we have a "good guy, " slowing removal would be good.
. . .
Individual variations in our cytochrome P40 enzymes help to demystify why there are so many variations in how we respond to drugs and herbs. This is why one man's herbal meat is another mans herbal poison.
A well-trained medical practitioner can exploit these facts to your advantage. For more information on this process with common drugs, and a few herbs, look for Dave Flockhart's Drug Tables. (through link above.)
This table is designed as a hypothesis testing, teaching and reference tool for physicians and researchers interested in drug interactions that are the result of competition for, or effects on the human cytochrome P450 system.
When discussing herbs for the liver, it is important to keep in mind that the TCM Liver (with a capital L) system differs from the physical liver in several respects, although there are overlaps.
For that reason we will cover the TCM concepts of Liver Qi restriction and Liver wind elsewhere.
Also, there is a bit of an artificial differentiation between treating the liver and the blood (the filter and substance being filtered), so some things--such as clearing the blood of fats--will be covered later in other sections on this website.
The important thing to remember is that the liver is a hot (metabolically active) organ, and so tends to get congested and inflamed.
Therefore, all the herbs in these categories work to reduce this "heat and damp," but they work in different ways. They can easily be combined into formulas based on signs and symptoms.
Protection
Turmeric root, wheat sprouts, schisandra berries, amla fruit, beet root and milk thistle seed are among the major sources of protective anti-oxidants for the liver cells, as are fruits that contain flavonoids, especially citrus fruits.
These should be used to prevent development of inflammatory disease, or for damage protection as in the case of persons taking strong chemical drugs or undergoing chemotherapy.
Deficiency
The liver can become weakened and deficient. If this is not corrected, it can lead to liver atrophy and depletion of glycogen stores, even hepatitis. Signs include fatigue, low blood pressure, hypoglycemia, dry eyes, headache, heat symptoms and irritability . . . .
Heat and Inflammation
To remove excess liver inflammation with heat signs or toxins . . . .
. . .
Pain
If there is liver inflammation with signs of pain and tension, use herbs that calm the liver and move the blood . . . .
posted
Good info, Keebler. I'll be needing it too, since I'll be starting back on antibiotics soon after a 2-month (undesired) hiatus.
I dug up my symptom log from a year ago...
I can't speak for anybody else, but for me, the Herxheimer reaction was the worst 1-2 days after starting antibiotics. It began to subside 3 days after starting the antibiotics. By day 5, I was feeling significantly better than *before* the antibiotics.
What I experienced were temporary increases in joint pain (especially hip pain), muscle pain, headache, morning fatigue, vision and hearing sensitivity, balance problems, and frustration/irritability (understandably!)
The other thing I experienced was that the site of the tick bite, which had already been extremely itchy for over 5 weeks, started itching even more intensely. It itched like *crazy* for those same 3 days, then started to let up.
-------------------- Grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console; to be understood, as to understand; to be loved, as to love Posts: 61 | From Atlanta, GA | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
I'm hoping more people will post what has helped them.
Glutathione has helped many. The Newbie thread surely has many links about that, too.
In addition to the links above (at Newbie thread) you can do a search here for other threads (see the "search" feature above, right under "Post New Topic").
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[confused]](graemlins/confused.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic