Topic: Update on Hubby -- Clongen found Mystery Bug !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hoosiers51
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Member # 15759
posted
Thanks for the info, Bea.
Wonder if just a Calcium EDTA oral supplement in addition to Minocycline would be good enough.
Doesn't EDTA chelate heavy metals? Could I run myself into problems there, chelating metals that I am not equipped to fully detox in my fragile state of health?
How much EDTA would be necessary? I found a product on iherb.com that has 100mg per capsule. Is that enough? (I'm already on Minocycline right now)
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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I am not going to suggest doses, since Dr F is not hubby's doc and also because I am a little confused on the doses myself.
Generally calcium EDTA is primarily used for lead chelation and magnesium EDTA I think is used for other metals and for cardiovascular issues. The use of calcium EDTA is newer I think.
I think the important point to remember is that using something for biofilms needs to be combined with a killing agent -- antibiotics or herbs. The two instances I referenced regarding hubby coincidentally were when he was not on antibiotics.
Hubby has done lots of Heparin -- shots, sublingual and even IV. Obviously this has not worked for him. He currently uses Vitalzym which has Serapeptase in it. But obviously this has not worked either. Both have been mildly helpful from a bloodflow standpoint I think, but not really sure they are doing much if anything for biofilms.
I just think we need more info. I will most likely keep experimenting on hubby as I don't feel like we have a choice. I am not willing to just "do nothing". But I won't be making suggestions to anyone unless I am sure it is safe and that it actually works.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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First off, very sorry to hear about Leslie Wermers, I just finished watching some of the tribute videos on youtube, if you haven't seen them you should take a look.
So, I saw Fry yesterday, and as hard as it is for me to keep focused being at the doctor with my constant anxiety through the roof, I managed to bring back some information from him.
I'd like to place a disclaimer ahead of time, that please don't take this as 100% definite, he speaks in highly scientific terms about 95% of the time and it goes right over my head.
And with my cognitive dysfunction I feel I have an IQ of around 50.
Anyway, I mentioned Clongen labs to Dr. Fry, he said he had spoken with the head of Clongen labs, and Fry believes they are working on two different bugs, however if they are working on the same bug as Fry, Fry believes he had came across it first and has proposed a name.
According to Fry he has DNA sequenced this bug, it is a new bug, he has given it a name that starts with a P and ends in bacterium, now Like DebAZ had mentioned he said the name so fast, I can't recall it for my life. But he has DNA sequenced, named it, and is working with a grant and the university of Oklahoma to further research and understand it.
I talked to him about treatment plans, he says as usual it takes time and it takes a lot of money. For now the most common methods as far as I know that Fry uses is Zith/Mepron and Biaxin/Plaquenil.
From my understanding he wants to take an entirely different approach, but again this is lots of money and lots of time down the road.
Again I wish I had clearer more easily understandable information to bring back, but when is this bug clear and understandable, not to often.
However, I for one believe Fry is clearly making progress, i heard it from him face to face. For all the skeptics still out there, feel free to be skeptical, I can still understand where you guys are coming from, and many questions still need to be answered.
It is frustrating, but it is progress none the less. And progress is always good to hear, at least in my opinion.
I myself have a positive smear with this bug, as many of you do. I am on Zith/Mepron, I have been for almost two months. It's a long road. I have been on ABX close to a total of 8 months, with still no drastic improvement but I have hope that Fry is on the right track, and he is clearly making progress on understanding what may be another link in this long chain of problems many of us are facing.
Again I wish I had more for you guys, i'm sure others have appt's on the way that can help fill in some blanks for me.
- Trevor
Posts: 59 | From Arizona | Registered: May 2008
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I was sort of starting to think they might be 2 different bugs, but just not sure. It is my understanding that both are gram-negative patogens but that is about all I really know. Of course the odds of hubby having 2 different mystery bugs seem rather astronomical but I just don't know.
The suspense continues.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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oxygenbabe
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posted
You have to wonder if Fry Labs and Clongen are working on two different mystery bugs what the heck is going on.
This does not make a lot of sense.
The reports from lymenet on Fry have always seemed questionable to me. Fry couldn't seem to identify the bug--and when shown to other microbiologists I can't remember what they said--artifact, perhaps?
Somehow, I have no reason to be suspicious, but I still am.
Whereas Clongen, I sort of trust just from what I've read, and looking at their website. They seem like a very classy "boutique" lab.
Who am I to talk:). But if the situation is so messy that we have two mystery bugs both of which are in some tick victims or which each lab claims is in most tick victims, then why not five or six or eight mystery bugs yet to be discovered? I mean, theoretically it is possible that ticks carry many many pathogens that are key, not opportunistic, and that every patient has an entirely different soup, but that would mean decades of work....
What I'm saying is, for two labs to isolate two different bugs and both claim the bugs are in most of their patients' blood and for us to think that maybe this bug is the answer to refractory "lyme", I don't know.
Anyway my betting money is on Clongen.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Hubby was thinking that maybe it is 2 different strains of the same bug -- for example several people have 2 strains of bart or 2 strains of babs -- so why not 2 strains of pseudomonas if that is really the mystery bug?
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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If you have read many of the posts made by LymeMD to his blog then his prejudice against the Fry Lab comes through loud and clear. I am not a microbiologist. However, just because someone doesn't tell all they know on a website doesn't influence me much.
What I am looking for is results and information that is useful for diagnosis and treatment.
The way I see it -- in the beginning Fry was seeing something on bloodslides that noone else was seeing -- the main reason is because noone else was looking.
Seriously -- who had a bloodslide looking for Babesia or anything else before they used Fry labs?
His lab has a CLIA license -- hubby's insurance paid something on the testing.
I think I read that he had developed and patented a special stain that his lab uses. He has been studying this pathogen for 11 years I think and only offered the tests to the public in the last couple of years.
He did not start out with state of the art equipment but has upgraded as he could afford it. He now has a PCR machine -- have no idea what these cost, but I am sure it is a substantial investment.
I personally hope Fry is the one who gets to name this new pathogen.
If Fry Lab now has a PCR test to test for this new pathogen then I will get hubby tested again through Fry to see if he has 1 or 2 different pathogens.
I also like Dr K at Clongen Labs , but at this point I am not putting all my eggs in one basket.
If Fry is correct and the pathogen has a biofilm then that explains a lot as to why people are not getting well. If the antibiotics do not get to the target they will not work regardless of whether they are oral or IV.
I'll get off my soapbox now. I must admit that LymeMD's attitude bothers me sometimes.
Bea Seibert
Note: Hubby was on Bactrim at the time of his testing from Clongen -- 3 times weekly for 2 months and then 6 times weekly for 8 months. I just don't think we can know what meds will work until we know what pathogen we are dealing with.
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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oxygenbabe
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posted
Bea...
Most pathogens have the ability to form biofilms, as well as latent forms or forms that look very different from their active replicating forms. E. coli in the bladder for instance changes so much in the presence of cranberry extract it no longer looks recognizable, and it also has the capacity to go intracellular.
There is nothing *unusual* about all this and there is not, I suspect, some pathogen that is unique because it forms biofilms.
The question is, with all the fricken antibiotics lymies take, I mean almost every one in the book, what pathogen might be universally afflicting so many lymies and not succumb? That will be interesting to find out.
That's why I speculated on the worms and the microsporidia. Because then if you didn't address the worms, they'd be happily multiplying, and spawning more bacteria, and that might explain relapse and inability to get off abx. Just a thought of course and c. elegans is nothing like microfilarial worms.
I know how you feel about Lyme MD but the fact is he's a lot more scientifically oriented than most doctors. He has the typical arrogance of most doctors, like my dear ex-hubby . Who said to me quite cheerfully that the doctor's motto is: "I may be wrong but I am never in doubt."
So sometimes he says sort of dumb things like he did about cipro, and he to me seems narrowly focussed on drugs drugs drugs, but nonetheless--he is reasonably priced and trying hard to understand stuff and his blog is really interesting. So I forgive him his sins as clearly I have mine too etc.
I am hoping for fascinating answers soon. I see I'm posting again. What the heck. I didn't sleep well last night and I'm trying to read a scientific paper on earthworms and its freezing here and I'm not concentrating very well!
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Bea-I just posted that thread because it had some info about hemobartonella, nothing to do with any prejustice against Fry Las.
I thought there were some interesting comments in the blog, one of which the woman says she's getting better, but unfortunately she didn't say what antibiotics she's taking.
Thanks for sharing this very encouraging info.
sunny
-------------------- sunnymalibu Posts: 192 | From california | Registered: Jul 2006
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kelmo
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posted
Thanks for you objective reports, Bea. I only hope that your husband has all the resources available to him to get the treatment he needs. You have both suffered greatly.
Just some thoughts regarding issues in this thread.
Dr. Fry doesn't routinely Rx EDTA. I've heard him use it on one patient. But, I don't know his business. I've only had one contact, and that was three years ago. He said he doesn't use it any more, but maybe he is now.
When we first started going to him three years ago, he told us about biofilms. I brought that information back here and was quickly pounced on. (There was one person on this board who felt it was their life's work to get everyone to supplement magnesium).
One of the reasons he told us to stop supplementing with magnesium, was that builds the biofilm. At that time, my daughter was taking an epsom salt bath EVERY DAY for two months.
She looked like an inflated red balloon. Epsom salts are 100% magnesium. It took six months of sauna to get it out of her system.
We don't make a conscious effort to avoid magnesium, we just don't supplement. Her mag level is great.
After two years of treatment, there are no twitches or cramping some have said they get when they stop magnesium. She has never tested low.
She also takes enzymes, she tried heparin for a while. That was really helpful, as her blood was like sludge.
Some antibiotics naturally punch holes in the biofilm layer. I know zithromax did that for me.
Dr. Fry is adding an antimalarial to all his abx protocols. For my daughter, this caused her minocycline to get a boost, and she's been functioning much better. Mepron was bad news for her.
Personally, I would be disappointed if Fry didn't get to name this bug (if they are going after the same one), he has been telling us for years that he felt it was something bartonella like.
People in our local support group, who didn't want to go to Dr. Fry because he felt "chronic lyme" was due to a mystery bug that was vector born (not just ticks), had their blood tested by his lab and found they were ill with things that IGENEX didn't catch.
Some were surprised to find they had erlicchia. Some were surprised they carried the triple B punch of Bart, Babesia, and Borrelia. Our group leader had been treating with herbs for years, and it was failing him. He is now making progress on antibiotics.
Nevertheless, I'm thrilled that there are more labs taking this disease seriously and looking for ways to fight it.
We will all benefit from this support.
And, gale, sometimes you can't go public with information until all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed. There are legal reasons...there is no conspiracy!
I don't mean this disrespectfully, but, what is your country doing to help? You have done nothing...I mean NOTHING but try to destroy the reputation of this doctor.
Is there one time where you supported anyone on this board? Any board? Have you reached out to comfort anyone? Give some helpful advice? No. Every single post you have ever made was with regard to Fry Labs and it's integrity. Questioning is good, we aren't supposed to be lemmings. But, it seems you have this lab in your crosshairs. It's becoming suspect.
Can you tell I'm angry? I'll delete this thread if moderator thinks it's appropriate. But, I'm tired of this person's agenda.
But, Bea, love ya, and I am looking forward to finding out what Clongen comes up with. If there are two bugs we need to deal with..then, yippee, we can deal with it.
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
kelmo-is your daughter taking Plaquenil with minocin? One of my doctors recommended plaquenil for me, but because of the possible eye side effects I opted for IVIG instead. I've had over 27 eye surgeries and am afraid to take any meds that could affect my eyes.
Thanks for the reminder about not taking magnesium. I've read that before. You said that your daughter is doing well. Is she doing very well? I hope so!
Best wishes!
-------------------- sunnymalibu Posts: 192 | From california | Registered: Jul 2006
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kelmo
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posted
Hi sunny. My daughter gets her eyes checked every six months.
She has had three eye surgeries. She was born crosseyed, but that's been fixed.
We have a family history of detached retinas, so, yes, it's a concern.
She is doing well, but not symptoms free. What we are dealing with now is inflammation in the spine. All disks are bulging and she has developed a cyst (syringomyelia).
If she can get that pain under control, she will feel like a new person.
Three years ago, she was bound to the couch. She was very ill and in pain over her entire body. She did the last two years of high school sitting at home.
This semester, she is finishing her third semester of taking oncampus classes at the community college, a full schedule, and getting A's.
But, like I said, she is limited due to the spine issues.
Minocycline has been a great drug for her. It was starting to wane, so adding plaquenil has given it new life.
27 eye surgeries??? Yikes.
Take care Kelmo
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Kelmo-thank you for your reply. Your daughter has been through quite a lot for her young age. Three eye surgeries for such a young person have to be very difficult. She's lucky to have you taking such good care of her.
Yes, the retina problems were my concern and also concerned my doctor. I don't think the problems are that common, but definitely need to be watched. A family history of detached retinas certainly makes things more precarious.
These diseases must cause back problems. I fell awhile ago and have had three back surgeries. One of my cousins was recently diagnosed with Scleroderma and she can't even stand up straight because of terrible pain. She will be operated on in the next couple of weeks.
Do you know if the inflammation in the back is related to the lyme? My cousin's spine surgeon is not sure if her Scleroderma is causing the back problems. So much we don't know.
I'm glad that the minocycline has helped your daughter so much and that she can take classes from home. Going from being bed bound to being able to handle a full schedule of classes is wonderful. Hopefully she will be able to continue at a college and have the wonderful experience. I'll talk to my doctor again about the plaquenil. Thanks for letting me know about how it helped your daughter.
Yes, 27 eye surgeries caused by uveitis and glaucoma. I just had my fifth cornea transplant on Wednesday. It was the first one in my better eye and I'm praying that it starts working soon.
Best wishes to your daughter for a full recovery and getting the back pain under control immediately.
Kind regards,
Sunny
-------------------- sunnymalibu Posts: 192 | From california | Registered: Jul 2006
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I would be very interested to know where Clongen's 'mystery bug' was found in your hubby(e.g. intracellular to erythrocytes).
Fry's 'mystery bug' is always reported as being attached to the outside of erythrocytes. I previously worked as a microbiologist and this is very unusual for bacteria. I have confirmed this with pathologist friend who believes Fry's findings are likely some sort of non-viable debris in the smear. I also received the same feedback from a microscopist who reviewed pictures of his smears at a well-respected teaching hospital.
Although I'm a skeptic about the potential pathogenicity of the organism Fry is researching, I continue to keep an open mind and still greatly appreciate the work these labs are doing. I also want to note that I have personally spoken to Dr. F (not as a patient) and I don't question for a second that he has good intentions and that he cares about his patients.
[ 08. December 2008, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: KS ]
Posts: 561 | From mass | Registered: Jul 2007
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djf2005
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posted
bea-
marnie posted a while back bart FEEDS on calcium not mag...
do a search.
i know since then ive avoided calcium as much as i can ive had some + results.
with as bad a case as bart your hubby looks to have, maybe you should look into it.
cheers
derek
ps-
even if they do find and label a new mystery bug, what is the difference?
not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but as lyme patients we already utilize all avail abx EXCEPT for one reserved for rare and abx resistant infections that are stored solely in hospitals and only avail thru the er drs and perhaps some ID docs who see mrsa and other resistant bugs...
i understand lyme is as equally resistant and deadly as mrsa but unfortunately the usa does not recognize this....
so, until then, im glad we have possibly found a new bug, but unless there's a novel new way to treat it it means very little in the scheme of things.
your husband is in my prayers bea
derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
kelmo
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Member # 8797
posted
quote:marnie posted a while back bart FEEDS on calcium not mag...
I believe it can be both. Here is a quote from an abstract.
An examination of the influence of several divalent cations on the antibiofilm activity of EDTA indicates that magnesium, calcium, and iron protect P. aeruginosa biofilms against EDTA treatment. Our results are consistent with a mechanism whereby EDTA causes detachment and killing of biofilm cellsPosts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Kelmo, I had very bad low back pain for more than a year, to the point that I couldn't sit for more than 10 minutes. You can imagine how much fun it was to make long trips to the doctor, under this condition.
The thing that seemed to help me the most was the combo of IV zith and IV cleocin. Not sure this will fix up every lymies back pain, but it helped me.
KS, if you look up mycoplasma, you can find electron microscope photos of some species attached to the outside of the red blood cells. So, it does happen. Don't know if this a stage, which is followed by penetration, or what.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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kelmo
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Thank you Lou. I'm hoping that the neurologist we will be seeing will recommend IV abx. My LLMD doesn't do them.
The neuro's new PA is from back is and is very knowledgable on Lyme. The neuro is very pathogen friendly, and is working with our LLMD.
Oh yes, wanted to add regarding the organisms sticking to the red blood cells....my first blood smear was clean.
After 6mo abx, my red blood cells had several black dots sticking to them. It coincided with a raging herx I had from taking one Rifampin pill with my last zith.
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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Reposting something here I posted on another thread. I'm not exactly sure what to think about the lab findings. Until I see hubby's actual lab report and the DNA testing is done I think we are just going to have to remain in the dark. Have a call in to Fry Lab to see if a PCR test is available now from his lab for his mystery bug.
-----------------------------------------------
Update 12/5
Since everyone had so many questions I called Clongen today to ask a few more questions.
According to Dr K at the lab --
The following pathogens should theoretically be visible on a bloodslide (as with any test there are limitations to the testing) --
babesia, malaria, bartonella, tularemia and the "mystery bug"
The following pathogens would either be too small or unlikely to be seen on a bloodslide --
Lyme, mycoplasma, rickettsia (includes Rocky Mtn Spotted Fever), Q fever, ehrlichia/anaplasma (could be mistaken for granules in the white blood cells)
Those pathogens not normally visible on a blood smear need to be tested by another method -- either antibody tests or PCR tests.
------------------------------------------------
Now, for his comments on the "mystery bug".
His lab will be unable to suggest antibiotic therapy -- he said that knowing the pathogen should be useful for this, but I don't think he really is aware of just how many things have failed for so many people.
Also, to test for antibiotic susceptibility the pathogen must be able to be cultured. His lab has been unable to do that so far. Not really sure how hard they have tried though, because that is not really where their expertise is.
The fact that he can't culture the bug makes me wonder if Clongen Lab and Fry Lab have found the same pathogen or not? I read somewhere that Fry Lab said the pathogen required arginine for growth. The only way he could know that is if he has in fact cultured the pathogen.
Also asked and Clongen could not say whether or not the mystery bug had a biofilm. Got the impression this is something the lab will be unable to determine.
The final question I asked was if the bug was attached to the red blood cells. Was told that it is not and that it is freely moving around.
Dr K is taking a week's vacation -- said he had literally been in the lab for 24 hours yesterday working flat out. Think he is trying to hire additional lab personnel.
I will probably not post again until after hubby's 12/16 LLMD appointment as I don't think there will be anything new to report.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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OxygenBabe posted that many pathogens make biofilms -- while that may be true, I did a quick search on PubMed and there is very little info regarding tickborne pathogens and biofilms. Borrelia, babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia, anaplasma -- little documented evidence that any of these form biofilms.
Many antibiotics do attack cell walls, but that is not the same as a biofilm.
There has to be something unique and different about this mystery bug -- otherwise it would not be so prevalent and so difficult to erradicate.
Hubby has actually had somewhat conservative treatment -- often only took one antibiotic at a time. However, since he has been in treatment for over 5 years he has tried a total of 25 different antibiotic/antiparasitic meds -- in many different classes -- some oral and some IV.
He has also used many herbs and done many alternative treatments including IV hydrogen peroxide, IV blood ozone and IV UVB blood irradiation
Hubby has never had classic Bart symptoms so I am not even sure if he really has Bart. Mycoplasma test results have been confusing as well.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
"Finally, we present and compare two widely used zinc chelators, CaEDTA and tricine, and show
why tricine should be preferred to CaEDTA
when studying fast transient zinc elevations as may occur during synaptic activity."
PMID: 18353558 Neuroscience. 2008 Feb 15.
"zinc-induced augmentation of glutamate-evoked currents"
Magnesium as NMDA receptor blocker in the traditional Chinese medicine Danshen."
"Glutamatergic receptors, specifically those of NMDA type-receptors, are closely related to excitotoxicity.
Thus, in some circumstances, ***an excess of Ca2+ influx through NMDA channels***alters neuronal metabolism and may become lethal for the cell.
Two other divalent cations, Mg2+ and Zn2+, have inhibitory effects on NMDA receptors.
Magnesium ions exert a voltage-dependent block of the NMDA calcium channel, whereas zinc ions exert a voltage-independent NMDA block.
In the present work, the effects of iontophoresis of Mg2+ and Zn2+ on the striatal response to SMCx stimulation were studied.
Moreover melatonin, an indoleamine with anticonvulsant properties and
inhibitory effects on the NMDA receptor,
was also iontophorized alone or in combination with Mg2+ and Zn2+.
...
When these cations were simultaneously ejected with melatonin, additive inhibitory effects were recorded. These observations suggest that the inhibitory effects produced by Mg2+ and Zn2+ and melatonin are produced via different processes, and thus the inhibitory role of melatonin on the NMDA receptor activity is exclusive of a direct action on the NMDA calcium channel."
What happens if Mg levels are too low and zinc is grabbed by Bb for use for its "zinc fingers"?
Bb metabolizes d-glutamate AND d-alanine.
The NMDA (glutamate) receptors are gated by several nutrients. Not to make it easy on us...these are the most complex receptors.
Bb also has "zinc fingers".
Bea...it appears Bb triggers a channel called TRPM8 which opens the gates to Na-Ca.
Far infrared...photons -> transducin (a G protein)-> Na-Ca channel closes.
When TRPM8 is "open", we feel cold.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
does anybody knoew what facts are regarding mystery bug. For a long time there have been rumors that scientific publication was "next week" etc etc Gale
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Don't know any new details regarding Fry mystery bug.
Hubby spoke to Clongen a week ago -- got the same 2 more weeks response we got 2 weeks ago. Apparently the lab has a large backlog of samples waiting to be tested. Hubby's LLMD appointment is 2/5 -- hoping for some info by then.
Hubby has had significant improvement in the last 2 weeks with symptoms from the herb cryptolepis and lactoferrin (Jarrow brand from Vitacost -- 2000 mg daily). I decided that if this pathogen is like most then it probably needed iron for growth. The lactoferrin makes the iron unavailable to germs. He is also taking lysine (2000 mg daily) to cover that angle as well.
Is only on Mino (100 mg daily) and Zithromax (300 mg 3 times per week) as far as antibiotic meds.
Will post as soon as I know anything else.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Bea, wouldn't that be babs responding to cryptoleptis? I have some here along with Boneset from Woodland Essence as well.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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According to Buhner in his book Herbal Antibiotics cryptolepis also works on gram -negative bacteria. Hubby no longer has obvious babs symptoms and says he can feel the cryptolepis working in his brain. But it is aqnyone's guess -- hubby's bloodslide from Clongen was negative for Babesia but again that isn't definitive.
Hubby is now up to 5 droppers (1 teaspoon 3 times daily) of cryptolepis. Buhner posted on Planet Thrive that he feels the herb is safe at up to 1 tablespoon 3 times daily.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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minoucat
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posted
Interesting, Bea -- my hubby also said he felt Cryptolepsis "working in his brain". Hard for him to describe, but after he started the crypto, in addition to weird brain-working feelings, he had a brief recurrence of significant neuro symptoms he hadn't felt in a couple of years. He figures it's die off. (Ever the optomist....)
He's feeling clearer headed now than he has in a very very long time. He definitely has babs, and is also on mepron and doxy to treat it.
Crypto added a real kick,though. Who knows what other mystery bugs he has as well... might 'splain why his babs has been so intractable.
BTW, he does a biofilm tx that includes green clay, apple pectin, charcoal, and lumbrokinase. Dunno if it's really hitting any biofilms, but it certainly has helped his gut and reduced his headaches (so we're assuming it's significantly helping detox, at a minimum).
Thanks for keeping us updated. Hope you're holding up too.
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. Who said to me quite cheerfully that the doctor's motto is: "I may be wrong but I am never in doubt."
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