posted
I know i n the past i have brought this subject up but my fingers ache to the bone. I wouldnt say they are weak just sore and stiff, thats why i think they seem weak. My wrist hurts along with this , i use bengay but this has to be one of teh worst symptoms any one else????????? suggestions comments .. help slightly worried
posted
I have the same symptoms. My fingers hurt on a daily basis, and become much worse when I'm having a strong herx. On many days my right thumb hurts so much I can't hold a pen. They are also very stiff as you described.
Sometimes a warm bath with epsom salt helps a little, other times it doesn't help at all. I'm sorry that you have such sore hands too.
-------------------- Lyme diag. 2005, confirmed with LLMD Dec. 2007, 2 years of Marshall Protocol, Bicillin,mal.Dr.Z herbs, EBV, HHV-6,Babs,Bart?(3 kids positive for Lyme) Posts: 10 | From NY | Registered: May 2008
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
This kind of soreness is typical of rheumatoid arthritis. Have you been tested?
If you test positive for RA and live close enough to travel to D.C. then pm me and I will give you my doctor's information.
She is a member of ILADS. She is LLMD and she is rheumatologist. This is almost unheard of in the rheumatoid world.
If you aren't close to D.C. (and even if you are) see www.roadback.org. There is plenty of bonifide research and success in treating rheumatoid arthritis and other auto-immune disorders with antibiotics.
I hope you do not have RA. It is a bad dude disease, but if you have it, the sooner you treat it the better.
Just don't expect any mainstream rheumatologists to work with you to identify and treat your triggers (causes, such as lyme). They just want to give you immune suppressing drugs until you develop cancer or heart disease and die.
Hate to give you this possible cause of the pain in your hands and wrists but it is the most common RA symptom.
PS: With RA, you will have noticeable swelling. If you don't see obvious swelling it may be parvovirus. For sure, some pathogen is behind it. Not always just lyme.
I test positive for Babesia Duncani, EBV, CPN, H.P.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
i had that. a lot went away with aggressive oral abx-3 yrs. the base of my thumbs and sometimes wrist didn't improve. xrays showed severe osteo arthritis at the baselar (i think thats the word) thumb joint. it is basically very low-seems more near the wrist than thumb. but i have known for 4 yrs i need surgery there on both sides-i have been too sick to deal with it. the pain now keeps me up at night-so i know i will have to face the surgery in the spring.
ibuprofen works the best for me. last night i took vicoden and got about 2 hrs relief.
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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disturbedme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12346
posted
Yep. My fingers are always stiff and poppy. No matter what. The stiffness in my arms and legs comes and goes, but the finger stiffness is pretty much always there.
-------------------- One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar. ~ Helen Keller
My Lyme Story Posts: 2965 | From Land of Confusion (bitten in KS, moved to PA, now living in MD) | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Daily massages of every finger, thumb, hand, wrist, etc. When I get the aching joints, instead of avoiding useage, I do the opposite, forced manipulations of the joints, muscles, tendons. If hand pain is a typical problem, perhaps doing something that requires usage of the hands frequently...knitting, sewing, crochet, ...playing a musical instrument (guitar, bass, violin, cello).
If the joints are enflamed, then ice packs and anti inflammatories.
The key with anything lyme related is find what works, and use it as often as needed. As was mentioned, look up RA and see what other methods are used.
Posts: 514 | From . | Registered: Apr 2008
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Taking anti-inflammatory measures help too. By way of diet, herbs, detoxing.
Vit C, Vit D3, Magnesium in large doses are not only detoxifying and anti-inflammatory. They also rebuild the collegen and cartilage that disease is destroying. If you have pain and stiffness, you are incurring joint damage.
NSAIDS may make you feel better but they are contributing to the breakdown and damage to your joints. Find a better solution.
Even though I have RA from my lyme, my hands, wrists, fingers almost never hurt.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Oh, one more thing.
Ease up on your medicines when your hands hurt. The die off could be aggravating your joints. I can pulse my meds whenever I am hurting and the pain goes away.
This is because you are killing bugs faster than your body can remove the toxins and the toxins cause pain in your extremities.
Detox, detox, detox.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Luvs 2 ride...Can you explain to me NSAID damaging joints? I thought it was to lessen inflammation? I take Mobic..dx'd w/lyme on 4-10-8. Thanks in advance. Posts: 145 | From Paris, Tn. | Registered: Dec 2008
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Zebco,
Here are some articles about it. I was diagnosed lyme by 2 physicians in 8/05. After 5 mths of treatment for the lyme along with Advil for the joint pain that just kept getting worse, I was diagnosed RA. The rheumatologist told me to take as many as 4 Advil 4 times daily, but when I started researching RA I learned of the Leaky Gut connection and how NSAIDS are a major cause of leaky gut.
I stopped the Advil immediately and started a vegan diet which I learned about at www.drmcdougall.com. Within 2 weeks of starting that diet, I had 50% (estimated) reduction in pain and inflammation. I was not able to stand long enough to take a shower before the diet and 2 weeks later could walk 2 hrs before having to sit.
I found a medical doctor(MD) trained in nutritional healing. He helped me identify food allergies I had developed from the LGS. He also tested and found me high in lead and mercury. He began detoxifying me slowly with IVs of glutathione, lipostabil and supplements to strengthen my body.
Within 1 yr of working with him, my RA went from 56 (high moderate) to 29 (weak positive). I no longer needed pain killers of any kind.
As long as I avoid dairy and soy, I do not suffer joint pain. My current doctor is ILADS LLMD/rheumatologist. She tested and found Babesia, EBV, CPN, Mycoplasmas (loads) H. Pylori. All these infections are causing my RA. She is treating the bugs while continuing to detoxify me.
I live 100% painfree and normal very active life all the time unless I eat wrong.
This website promotes NSAIDS for joint pain but even here you will find #1 & #2 below.
#1-Long-term use of NSAIDs may have a damaging effect on chondrocyte (cartilage) function.
#2- Adverse effects of NSAIDs which can occur at any time include renal (kidney) failure, hepatic (liver) dysfunction, bleeding, and gastric (stomach) ulceration.
Reasons to avoid the use of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs)
Introduction: Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) have many common and serious adverse effects including the promotion of joint destruction. Paradoxically, these drugs cause or exacerbate the very symptoms and disease they are used to treat: joint pain and inflammation. In a tragic exemplification of Orwellian newspeak[2], the habitual utilization and long-term prescription of NSAIDs for joint pain and inflammation as advocated by the pharmaceutical industry[3] and medical textbooks[4] and is not described as malpractice; rather it is described as the standard of care and first-line therapy.
Gastric ulceration and gastrointestinal bleeding: Nearly all NSAIDs promote gastric ulceration and gastrointestinal bleeding. Among patients who chronically use NSAIDs 65% will develop intestinal inflammation[5] and up to 30% will develop gastroduodenal ulceration.[6] Drugs differ greatly in their propensity to damage the gastrointestinal mucosa and cause bleeding, and aspirin appears to be the most problematic.[7] NSAIDs can also promote and exacerbate colitis and inflammation of the large intestine.[8]
Increased intestinal permeability: NSAIDs damage the mucosa of the small intestine and promote macromolecular absorption and paracellular permeability-"leaky gut." As described in greater detail later in this text, increased intestinal permeability most certainly contributes to the exacerbation and perpetuation of some rheumatic and musculoskeletal disorders by inducing inflammation via immune activation and by promoting the formation of immune complexes that are then deposited into synovial tissues for the induction of a local inflammatory response inside the joint.[9]
Promotion of bone necrosis and cartilage destruction: Several NSAIDs cause osteonecrosis[10] and many of these drugs interfere with chondrocyte function and cartilage formation and thus promote the destruction of joints.[11] The subchondral osteonecrosis induced by many NSAIDs may both necessitate and complicate arthroplasty (joint replacement with prosthesis) because of extensive joint damage and because the underlying bone that must hold the new implant is too weak to provide a stable foundation.[12] In vivo studies have shown that salicylate, acetylsalicylic acid, fenoprofen, isoxicam, tolmetin, and ibuprofen reduce glycosaminoglycan synthesis.[13]
Promotion of hepatic and renal injury and failure: Chronic use of NSAIDs is an important risk factor for the development of renal failure.[14] Hepatic injury is less common than NSAID-induced renal failure but can be achieved with higher drug doses (especially with the non-NSAID analgesic acetaminophen), coadministration of drugs, and concomitant consumption of alcohol.
Death: NSAIDs are an impressively significant cause of death in America . According to the review by Singh[15]:
"Conservative calculations estimate that approximately 107,000 patients are hospitalized annually for nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID)-related gastrointestinal (GI) complications and at least 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur each year among arthritis patients alone. The figures for all NSAID users would be overwhelming, yet the scope of this problem is generally under-appreciated."
If we summarize that at least 17,000 people die each year from NSAIDs, that "medication errors" kill over 7,000 people in America [16] and that an additional 180,000 Americans die due to hospital errors[17], then we have a situation where at least 200,000 Americans die each year due to drug effects and hospital/physician errors. This is significantly more than the annual deaths due to diabetes (71,000), suicide (30,000), homicide (20,000) [18], and the September 11, 2001 terrorist attack (up to 3,000) combined.[19]
Preliminary studies indicate that natural treatments such as spinal manipulation[20], glucosamine sulfate[21], and Harpagophytum[22] are safer and/or more effective than NSAIDs for the relief of many types of pain, and it is therefore quite probable that the increased utilization of these nonpharmacologic treatments will result in reductions in morbidity, mortality, and overall healthcare expenses when compared to our current overutilization of NSAIDs.
This excerpt is provided free for members of the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians. WellBodyBook.com
[1] Newman NM , Ling RS. Acetabular bone destruction related to non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs. Lancet. 1985 Jul 6; 2(8445): 11-4 [2] Orwell G. 1984. New York ; Harcourt Brace Jovanovich: 1949. The term "newspeak" is defined by the Merriam-Webster Dictionary ( http://www.m-w.com ) as "propagandistic language marked by euphemism, circumlocution, and the inversion of customary meanings" and as "a language designed to diminish the range of thought," in the novel 1984 (1949) by George Orwell. [3] "Congratulations-you've joined the 20 million people who have taken CELEBREX, the #1 doctor-prescribed brand of arthritis medication." From http://www.celebrex.com on January 24, 2004 [4] "The first drug to treat rheumatoid arthritis is an NSAID." Tierney ML. McPhee SJ, Papadakis MA (eds). Current Medical Diagnosis and Treatment 2002, 41st Edition. New York : Lange Medial Books; 2002. Page 856 [5] "NSAIDs cause small intestinal inflammation in 65% of patients receiving the drugs long-term." Bjarnason I, Macpherson AJ. Intestinal toxicity of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs. Pharmacol Ther. 1994 Apr-May;62(1-2):145-57 [6] "Endoscopic studies indicate that up to 30% of chronic NSAID users will develop gastroduodenal ulceration." Blower AL. Considerations for nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug therapy: safety. Scand J Rheumatol Suppl. 1996;105:13-24 [7] "ASA (1,500 mg/day for 5 days) caused about a 6-fold increase in blood loss. Four days after withdrawal of ASA, faecal blood was still about twice as high as in faeces of subjects given ibuprofen and indoprofen." Porro GB, Corvi G, Fuccella LM, Goldaniga GC, Valzelli G. Gastro-intestinal blood loss during administration of indoprofen, aspirin and ibuprofen. J Int Med Res 1977;5(3):155-60 [8] "Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) may adversely affect the colon, either by causing a non-specific colitis or by exacerbating a preexisting colonic disease. . Local and/or systemic effects of NSAIDs on mucosal cells might lead to an increased intestinal permeability, which is a prerequisite for colitis." Faucheron JL, Parc R. Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug-induced colitis. Int J Colorectal Dis. 1996;11(2):99-101 [9] Inman RD. Antigens, the gastrointestinal tract, and arthritis. Rheum Dis Clin North Am. 1991 May; 17(2): 309-21 [10] "The case of a young healthy man, who developed avascular necrosis of head of femur after prolonged administration of indomethacin, is reported here." Prathapkumar KR, Smith I, Attara GA. Indomethacin induced avascular necrosis of head of femur. Postgrad Med J. 2000 Sep; 76(899): 574-5 [11] "At.concentrations comparable to those. in the synovial fluid of patients treated with the drug, several NSAIDs suppress proteoglycan synthesis. These NSAID-related effects on chondrocyte metabolism . are much more profound in osteoarthritic cartilage than in normal cartilage, due to enhanced uptake of NSAIDs by the osteoarthritic cartilage." Brandt KD. Effects of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs on chondrocyte metabolism in vitro and in vivo. Am J Med. 1987 Nov 20; 83(5A): 29-34 [12] "This highly significant association between NSAID use and acetabular destruction gives cause for concern, not least because of the difficulty in achieving satisfactory hip replacements in patients with severely damaged acetabula." Newman NM , Ling RS. Acetabular bone destruction related to non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs. Lancet. 1985 Jul 6; 2(8445): 11-4 [13] Brandt KD. Effects of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs on chondrocyte metabolism in vitro and in vivo. Am J Med. 1987 Nov 20; 83(5A): 29-34 [14] "Patients with chronic arthritis who consume excessive amount of NSAIDs are at risk of developing renal papillary necrosis and chronic renal impairment." Segasothy M, Chin GL, Sia KK, Zulfiqar A, Samad SA. Chronic nephrotoxicity of anti-inflammatory drugs used in the treatment of arthritis. Br J Rheumatol. 1995 Feb; 34(2): 162-5 [15] Singh G. Recent considerations in nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug gastropathy. Am J Med. 1998 Jul 27; 105(1B): 31S-38S [16] "In 1983, 2876 people died from medication errors. ... By 1993, this number had risen to 7,391 - a 2.57-fold increase." Phillips DP, Christenfeld N, Glynn LM. Increase in US medication-error deaths between 1983 and 1993. Lancet. 1998 Feb 28;351(9103):643-4 [17] "Recent estimates suggest that each year more than 1 million patients are injured while in the hospital and approximately 180,000 die because of these injuries. Furthermore, drug-related morbidity and mortality are common and are estimated to cost more than $136 billion a year." Holland EG, Degruy FV. Drug-induced disorders. Am Fam Physician. 1997 Nov 1;56(7):1781-8, 1791-2 [18] Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), National Center for Health Statistics. Deaths: Final Data for 2001. 116 pp. (PHS) 2003-1120. Available at http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/releases/03facts/mortalitytrends.htm on January 18, 2004 [19] "On September 11, 2001, four U.S. planes hijacked by terrorists crashed into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania killing nearly 3,000 people in a matter of hours." From http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/ on January 26, 2004 [20] "CONCLUSION: The best evidence indicates that cervical manipulation for neck pain is much safer than the use of NSAIDs, by as much as a factor of several hundred times. There is no evidence that indicates NSAID use is any more effective than cervical manipulation for neck pain." Dabbs V, Lauretti WJ. A risk assessment of cervical manipulation vs. NSAIDs for the treatment of neck pain. J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 1995 Oct;18(8):530-6 [21] Muller-Fassbender H, Bach GL, Haase W, Rovati LC, Setnikar I. Glucosamine sulfate compared to ibuprofen in osteoarthritis of the knee. Osteoarthritis Cartilage. 1994 Mar;2(1):61-9 [22] Chrubasik S, Model A, Black A, Pollak S. A randomized double-blind pilot study comparing Doloteffin and Vioxx in the treatment of low back pain. Rheumatology ( Oxford ). 2003 Jan;42(1):141-8 http://www.healthassist.net/conditions/osteoarthritis-glucosamine.shtml
Glucosamine vs NSAIDs in the treatment of osteoarthritis
Glucosamine vs. NSAIDs While NSAIDs offer purely symptomatic relief and may actually promote the disease process, glucosamine addresses the cause of osteoarthritis. By getting at the root of the problem, glucosamine sulfate not only improves the symptoms including pain, it also helps the body repair damaged joints. This is outstanding, but what is even more outstanding is the safety and the lack of side effects associated with oral glucosamine sulfate. In contrast, the side effects and risks associated with NSAIDs currently used in the treatment of osteoarthritis are significant.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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