LymeMd has posted that Clongen has been unable to identify the "mystery bug".
I had been more or less expecting this result from discussions with Dr K at the lab.
Hubby's LLMD is still convinced that Bart treatment is the best route to go. I don't totally agree, but without an ID of the bug we are kind of on our own.
I posted a couple of suggestions for the lab to pursue. If anyone else has any ideas I suggest they post them on LymeMD's blog also.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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oxygenbabe
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posted
Strange. What can one make of a bug that only Clongen lab finds but they cannot grow out on any medium?
I'm totally confused. Maybe it's ultimately an artifact? Or perhaps its an intermediate stage of a bacteria? Or microsporidia?
What do you think, Bea?
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I think it is a bacteria of some sort. Not surprised that it can't be cultured though.
Was hoping the lab could do the DNA sequencing -- when you read journal articles about new bacteria they someitmes say something like -- bart species A shares 95% of the DNA of bart species B. I was hoping that the lab could at least say that it was a close match to some known bacteria.
Dr K at the lab has told us several times that the patients who have the mystery bug are all very sick so I do think it is pathogenic.
As I think I mentioned once before -- he also said that some patients have both an extracellular bug (this is the one hubby has) and an intracellular bug. I was hopeful that at least 1 of the 2 pathogens could be identified. It does make me wonder if the pathogens are possibly different forms of the same bacteria.
Not all patients have these mystery bacteria -- don't know what percent of patients. At one time Dr K mentioned that he had at least 30 patients with one or both bacteria, but my guess is that this number is much higher by now.
I think at this point we need to find some more curious microbiologists -- especially ones who are into research and ones with electron microscopes.
If anyone has any contacts please let me know.
Bea seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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I think nanobacteria is a reasonable possibility. Would explain why mino and EDTA might help.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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kelmo
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posted
Bea...hasn't Fry Lab been in this process for a few years? Fry is in the process of getting it mapped.
He just hired a new lab tech who is pretty savvy.
Actually, it was Fry who informed Clongen of the testing he does and they launched their own test based on his research.
So, Fry is still pursuing this mystery bug. He can only go as fast as the funding comes in. His own expense.
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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You do have a point. However, neither Clongen or Fry is sure if they are actually seeing the same pathogen. The 2 labs have talked, but aren't necessarily in agreement.
Hubby is actually doing pretty well right now -- we are using some of the treatment ideas Dr F has suggested and some ideas of my own. Just not sure if we are on the right track or not.
Will know in the next month or two if hubby's anemia improves that something is finally working. LLMD thinks his red blood cells are fragile and the hemolysis is causing low RBC, low hematocrit and low hemoglobin and elevated bilirubin. Hubby only had the extracellular pathogen per the Clongen bloodslide, but something seems to be actively destroying his red blood cells. He no longer has babesia symptoms so we don't think that is the problem.
It will be interesting to see if his bloodwork changes to reflect the way he is feeling.
Bea Seibert
P.S. Any idea when any of Dr F's work will be published -- obviously the rumour about the first of the year was wrong.
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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adamm
Unregistered
posted
Scariest thing I've read in a long time.
So is this a common denominator among patients who don't improve on any treatment? Should you just give up and go dig your own grave if you have this? If it were a bacterium, I take it that it would be the only one known that doesn't react with the primers they're using....
Well, whatever it is, it's probably a weapon of some sort... maybe an inorganic nanomachine?
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Hoosiers51
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posted
Are there any updates about the patients that are treating it with minocycline and EDTA? Are they improving?
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oxygenbabe
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posted
Bea, if you're feeling bold, contact Ian Lipkind at Columbia. He has a 6,000 sq foot lab. He id'd West Nile years ago. If you somehow got him interested he'd figure it out.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I was thinking the same thing but I didn't know that any detailed info. I was just thinking that contactinc Columbia Unversitly would be a good idea!!!!
They are already doing a lot of reasearch on Lyme & Co. in differant areas. If you can get the attention a good pathololist, or I can't think of the name of the other (I'm so sick now, I'm sorry) but a challange like this I'm sure they would welcome!!!!
I wish you the best; you know what to do, just keep persueing it!
Posts: 351 | From Georgia | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by seibertneurolyme: I think at this point we need to find some more curious microbiologists -- especially ones who are into research and ones with electron microscopes. If anyone has any contacts please let me know.
Bea,
Seven people from Europe (including myself) with the Fry mystery bug finding sent their blood to a big German State Research Lab that is specialized in vector borne infections. The chief is a microbiologist and they have all the means there including an electron microscope.
The chief of the lab felt that it was microsporidia but all their attempts to prove this by PCR's failed. They were not successful with the electron microscope either.
Bea, as you speak to Dr. K sometimes: would it be possible to ask if these bugs could be micrococci? Because if yes, then wouldn't it be possible that that we have the same bugs that the Italian veterinarian Tarello had?
Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) associated with Staphylococcus spp. bacteremia, responsive to potassium arsenite 0.5% in a veterinary surgeon and his coworking wife, handling with CFS animal cases.
Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) in human patients remain a controversial and perplexing condition with emerging zoonotic aspects.
Recent advances in human medicine seem to indicate a bacterial etiology and the condition has already been described in horses, dogs, cats and birds of prey in association with micrococci-like organisms in the blood.
To evaluate the possibility of a chronic bacteremia, a veterinary surgeon (the author) and his coworking wife, both diagnosed with CFS and meeting the CDC working case de�nition, were submitted to rapid blood cultures and fresh blood smears investigations.
Blood cultures proved Staph-positive and micrococci-like organisms in the blood were repeatedly observed in the 3-year period preceding the arsenical therapy, during which several medicaments, including antibiotics, proved unsuccessful.
Following treatment with a low dosage arsenical drug (potassium arsenite 0.5%, im., 1 ml/12 h, for 10 days) both patients experienced complete remission. At the post-treatment control made 1 month later, micrococci had disappeared from the blood, and the CD4/CD8 ratio was raising.
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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oxygenbabe
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posted
P.S. Bea I'd rather post ideas here.
LymeMD seems erratic in this behavior of posting this call to arms to his readers to "save him" and then removing the post which had 35 replies, and replacing it with an innocuous post. He did that previously--one morning made two long posts about the investigation, to which I answered, then removed them later. This seems somewhat unstable to me.
I don't think he's the right place to be posting ideas, and it's better to deal with Clongen directly, and have them contact someone like Lipkind if they're willing (maybe they still want the "fame" and will keep trying).
[ 02-11-2009, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: oxygenbabe ]
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Staphylococcus spp. should be culturable though... I'd think. Whether its resistant to all antibiotics and needs potassium arsenite (as this article states) is another issue. IIRC they can't culture this bacteria using normal methods.
Posts: 116 | From Ann Arbor, MI | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Bea, first off I am glad to hear that your husband is doing a bit better.
Can you confirm why Clongen could not run the sequence? Was it an issue of getting enough of the bug together to run a sequence, or did they run the 16S sequence and it failed to amplify anything?
Not being able to culture something probably is not surprising, but if the sequence shows nothing what do you have? Is this some type of novel eukaryotic parasite? My understanding is that the 16S sequence would amplify any bacterial rRNA - so if it fails, the agent is not a bacteria of any type.
Posts: 263 | From Capital Region, NY, USA | Registered: Jun 2008
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All I know is what was posted by LymeMD. I am waiting a couple of days before I call the lab until the dust settles a little.
My understanding is that the sequence does not match any known bacteria. I don't know enough about the actual lab techniques involved to say whether or not it is actually a bacteria.
The initial tests done on hubby showed it to be a gram negative bacteria and the intital testing was negative for parasites.
I do plan to follow up with Clongen and any other leads I get.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Hi Just wanted to chip in and say our UK LLMD uses Tarello's technique of darkfield microscopy and sometimes sees micrococci and staph in patients blood - but only in some.
More often in Lyme/CFS patients he sees the filarial worms, borrelia, c.pneumonie and sometimes bartonella and/or babesia like ring forms.
Emma
Posts: 37 | From Whitehead, Northern Ireland | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
What does EDTA do? I know it more as a metal chelator. Does it actually kill bugs and which ones?
Posts: 929 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Oct 2007
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oxygenbabe
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posted
Bea--when you do talk to Clongen we're all looking forward to more info. Thanks!
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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I have been following your story as I have symptoms similar to your hubby's only not as severe. I tested positive for the Fry bug last year.
Can you tell me what treatment suggestions Dr. F has made that you think may have recently helped.
In your hubbys Fry blood smear do the extra-cellular bacteria show up as black dots attached to the red blood cells?
Do you think the new bug can be seen under a darkfield microscope? The reason I ask is because I went to a LLMD last week who looked at mine and my partners blood under a darkfield microscope.
We could see organisms on the screen he said he thought were Lyme. Mine were triangle and dumbell shape and my partners were like strings of pearls 8 or 9 molecules long (but much smaller than the blood cell I think).
The information on nano-bacteria and EDTA treatment is extremely interesting to me because this links Lyme disease and prostatitis.
I have been suffering from chronic female prostatitis (urethral pain) for the last 6 years - this is where my problems started. I have a continual low grade fever. I have digestive system problems and other symptoms that could be due to Lyme or could be due to this other bug I guess.
There has been some research done recently on men with chronic prostatitis showing an improvement in symptoms using EDTA rectal suppositories and tetracycline. The theory being that this antibiotic works on nano-bacteria in the biofilms.
I don't have fatigue but I did test highly abnormal for all the neurological antibodies on the Lyme Panel C test which I think you said your hubby did.
Glad to hear your hubby has been feeling better recently,
Louise
Posts: 11 | From UK | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
There is a reason that Clongen cant find the pathogen. There are patents on how the bug can be found...and if they can't find it another way, they wont find it. It wont be long before this pathogen is made known to public.
Posts: 136 | From Arizona | Registered: Sep 2008
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seekhelp
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posted
So once again it's all about the money?
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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I hope I can write the following in a non- offensive way. 1.People who have this mystery bug are very sick 2.Whether this bug is the culprit remains to be proven, but many people are waiting desperately for solid information regarding this organism. 3.Over the past years news about the organism has come from Fry himself in radio-broadcasts etc , but mostly from his patients. 4. The information has gone from nonsense/speculation about the nature of the pathogene(mycoplasma, bartonella,heaemobratonella etc etc),to numerous rumors that scientific reports would be released next month,public grants were finansing the research,various university labs and gene-mapping companies were involved,it was a bacteria (betaproteobacteria) that could be cultured on argenine only and statements that there is a patent now-or is it just applied for?.(if a patent is in place everybody would be able to have a look). 5.So, in light of the negative effects of the long list of incorrect information (people have been treated with tons of ABX for kinds of bacteria that werent there) regarding this bug I think we need to be careful not to add to the confusion.To me your statement can be read in two ways.1.You have a detailed knowledge of the bug, and why it is not possible to identify it the normal way through cultivation,pcr sequencing etc.If that is the case- why not share? 2. OR you write this, because you have obtained the information in this form.
So,could you tell us a bit more about the sources for your information? Gale
[ 02-19-2009, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: galehane ]
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
seibertneurolyme your mailbox is full.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
First - I am not here to cause confusion. I have been NON controversial for a long time. I TRY to be supportive on a few Lyme sites. I am in the process of going back to school to either be a medical researcher or a physician's assistant.
I feel like this site and other sites are very harsh and unfair in their perception towards Frylabs. Besides Clongen, there is not any WELL known research labs that are making any progress for us. To see such negativity about information that is second and third hand, I am just tired of reading.
Frylabs have an accurate way testing the RBC's, with their smears, to detect any pathogens that could be affecting RBC's. If our RBC's are affected, our whole body is comprimised. Maybe I shouldnt post here anymore, because I really dont understand the pessimism that encompasses some of these discussions. It personally gives me hope and faith that MANY people will get better and have great quaility of life.
Frylabs has worked very diligently for years to get the opportunity they have been given and they deserve their chance. If this was some simple "bacteria" why are not all well? Why is it so difficult to get out of our blood? Some people have never had this show up in their smear, but that doesnt mean it is not there. Frylabs have a patented DNA smear that can detect if is still in the body.
I hope Clongen finds a way to see the pathogen and I hope they come up with a cure. If not someone else will.
So...I really have nothing else to say about this. I am leaving no confusion, but hope that soon we will all have a chance to get well and feel possibly better than we ever have. For those who dont believe...that is ok too. Without hope there is no reason to take medicine, to go the doctor or to be on this forum.
Posts: 136 | From Arizona | Registered: Sep 2008
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lymielauren28
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Well said Bears.
Lauren
-------------------- "The only way out is through" Posts: 1434 | From mississippi | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
BEars Do you know if it is a patent that has to do with staining/coulering the blood smears? (or like immuno-histochemical testing) Gale
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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oxygenbabe
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posted
Bears, it's not that people don't want hope. It's that you were so vague in your original post. You didn't mention who had the patent, and/or what "soon" meant. Most important, is how to treat it. So it appears you're saying Fry Labs has the patent and will reveal the bug soon. Specific information is helpful. What is "soon"? And does Fry have a treatment that has proven effective?
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Thanks a lot Bears! The info is greatly appreciated. I think that most of the people have been positive and hopeful about this. It has only been a few that have been upset and negative...mainly just one. Please try to ignore her if you can.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Feb 2005
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It is my understanding that Fry does have a patented stain that he uses on his blood smears.
However, Clongen can see their "mystery bug" on a wet mount smear without any stain. It also shows up on a gram stain as a gram negative bacteria. Thirdly it shows up on a Wright stain.
The problem is not one of not seeing the bacteria -- the problem is that the visible bacteria can't be identified.
I guess this is one of the reasons the 2 labs are not sure if the bacteria is the same one or not -- I don't know if Fry Lab can see the bug without using their patented stain or not?
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Hubby just got off the phone with both labs.
The lady in the lab at Fry said that he has written up his research, but she didn't know when it would be published and wasn't sure what journal it would be in.
The lab is still in the process of testing their PCR test for the betaproteobacteria -- anticipates that the test will be available within a year.
Also, Fry Lab has temporarily stopped doing the genus PCR tests for Babesia and Bartonella.
Per Dr K at Clongen, he will be attending 2 medical conferences beginning Sunday and will not be back in the lab until after 3/17. Hopes to consult with colleagues and have some new ideas on how to proceed with identifying his "mystery bug" at that time. Hubby did suggest the possibility of nanobacteria to him.
So it looks like we are going to have to be patient for now.
I am following up on some other research avenues and will post if I get any promising leads.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
If Fry has a PCR primer for what they are seeing and Clongen shows no results for various bacteria primers, it seems pretty likely they are not seeing the same thing. Nanobacteria seems unlikely - the size and motility seems to rule that out - can somebody confirm that?
I do hope it is a bacteria, but the Clongen PCR testing and persistence of the bug in abx treated patients makes it seem less likely. Persistence in patients treated with macrolides and atovaquone (Mepron) and the bugs motility makes some new Apicomplexa (malaria, babesia, toxoplasma) less likely also.
Posts: 263 | From Capital Region, NY, USA | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
After a little more research I am not so sure about Toxoplasma gondii - has anybody with positive results for BLO sent a specimen to Palo Alto medical foundation for testing? They are the reference lab for the CDC.
The size, morphology and motility of the bug seems like a close match to the tachyzoite form of T. gondii. Symptoms may match to some degree also - chronic encephalitis and spastic paralysis occur in some cases.
Toxoplasmosis is most symptomatic in immune suppressed people, seems like some of the sickest BLO patients fit that bill also.
Posts: 263 | From Capital Region, NY, USA | Registered: Jun 2008
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oxygenbabe
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posted
I think, tcw, that you make a good point, which is immunosuppression.
I don't think it's that likely, if this bug *is* identified, that it will turn out to be an unknown, heretofore unidentified, primary cause of refractory tickborne illness, and that once identified, a magical antibiotic will wipe it out...
Many chronic lyme patients have been on multiple antibiotics and antiprotozoals.
I don't see this as the next great white hope. It is more likely, since found in the sickest patients, an opportunist.
Sure, it would be nice to be wrong and to have a simple answer.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I sometimes get confused with some theories here? Bartonella and other species of this species, are killed with macrolides-easily. According to many doctors...Chronic cases of Lyme are killed with 8 months to one year of antibiotics. Babesia can be tough, but can be eradicated. So what is left? Is an organism attached to our RBC's normal? Why do some people get well and others dont? We can be skeptical and think that we are just full of opportunistic infections and Lyme is the true cause. A perfect example is this...I have only been positive to band #41 for 2 years now. I have and still have symptoms-even after heavy antibiotics. #41 refers to a "flagella like organism". This organism that Frylabs is finding has a tail and a biofilm. I have elevated monocytes and LDH...and have for 1.5 years now. Never goes away...so what is my body fighting? I do not have cancer or some other type of serious disease? I think everyone forgets about TB, Polio, Measles, Mumps, Hepatitis B, just to name a few...that had devastating effects on society and were probably, for the most part, blamed on genetics or other illnesses.
It would be nice to know what the pathogen is and why it is on our RBC's. We will know soon and will find out if this is the core problem or not. Why are so many people getting better on Biaxin, Roxi, Zithromax and an anti-malarial...Mepron, Artemesia and Plaquenil? Macrolides cover almost every bacteria, but in protozoans...they inhibit the protein synthesis. There is a reason why this combo is helping so many people, but there is a reason why we are still sick.
Posts: 136 | From Arizona | Registered: Sep 2008
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oxygenbabe
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It's just *my* theory, Bears. First of all, I think even healthy blood and cells may harbor many "pathogens" or "commensals" we have not found but could find if we look for it. Healthy people may be asymptomatic for borrelia, or CpN, but carry it. In addition, yes, there is good evidence borrelia is both immunosuppressive and inflammatory. I think it is the root cause, and lets the other bugs take hold in a compromised immune system. That's just *my* theory. What antibacterial have lyme patients *not* tried? I've seen postings for years, they've been on them all. What combo are you saying is helping so many people? And you are saying that those people, or perhaps other people, are still sick?
I'm not sure what you mean by "it has a biofilm." If it's attached single file to a RBC where is the biofilm? Biofilms are goopy matrices made of polysaccharides and minerals/metals and other stuff, within which the organisms exist at a lower metabolism and perhaps an altered state, and much less vulnerable to abx. Freely moving rbc's--how would they have a biofilm?
These are just my questions, I'm not a microbiologist.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I searched the US Patent and Trademark Office website. There are no recent or related patents or patent applications for Stephen Fry or Fry Laboratories (inventors must be individuals who can then assign to companies). A Stephen Fry was inventor of a couple nonapplicable patents in the early 1990s. I don't see any other researchers on the Fry Lab website who might have been an inventor.
You can search yourself for free but it uses boolean logic and your search must be correctly formatted.
Posts: 30 | From DC | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:This organism that Frylabs is finding has a tail and a biofilm.
bears1985, can you confirm the flagella on the BLO? I remember seeing that it is motile, but I do not remember seeing that it had a flagella.
quote:It is more likely, since found in the sickest patients, an opportunist.
oxygenbabe, I tend to agree - abx do not eradicate it, but patients are not burning up with fever or dying with liver failure either.
quote:Why are so many people getting better on Biaxin, Roxi, Zithromax and an anti-malarial...Mepron, Artemesia and Plaquenil? Macrolides cover almost every bacteria, but in protozoans...they inhibit the protein synthesis.
That is partly what led me to look at Toxoplasma - macrolides and atovaquone have some effect on the tachyzoite form I believe, clindamycin more so and Bactrim/Septra probably more than protein inhibitors. Macrolides inhibit protein synthesis in bacteria, but I think in Apicomplexan parasites they cause the apicoplast to form incorrectly after reproduction.
Toxoplasmosis is not something that would probably be considered for most patients - usually pregnant women with new infections and AIDS infected patients are the typical candidate for treatment. Something like 11% of the US population already has an asymptomatic, chronic Toxoplasma infection.
If it is opportunistic, who knows what drives the infection? Immune suppression from Lyme - maybe. Or maybe immume modulation from hydroxychloroquine, or something else altogether.
Posts: 263 | From Capital Region, NY, USA | Registered: Jun 2008
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I probably need to do some additional research on toxoplasmosis.
Hubby had the extended G.I. panel form Diagnostechs in Feb 2008 -- toxoplasmosis result was labeled as (saliva IgA -- positive). Goes on to say that this could indicate either past or current infection.
Since that time hubby has continuously been on Bactrim DS -- 2 per day. Also did 4 months of Alinia at 500 mg daily and 4 additional months at 500 mg 2 times per day.
Have not retested the Toxoplasma. However, the initial research I did indicated that something like 30 days of Alinia should eradicate toxoplasmosis. I may be off on the number of days.
Hubby was on both the Bactrim and Alinia when he did the Clongen test on 11/24/09.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
I had a positive toxoplasma IgG lab test 8 months ago. I responded wonderfully to Clindamycin for an unknown reason. I never tried Batrim DS.
I never had a blood smear done at Fry or Clongen. Hmm....makes you wonder?
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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Someone told me that the lab has stopped doing bloodslides because it was too labour intensive and not cost effective.
I did have the impression that Dr K was not really aware of just how many people (especially Lymies) were looking for answers and would utilize his services. He had mentioned that normally December was his slowest month and he couldn't understand why he was suddenly so busy.
I hope it is not true, but I can understand him getting discouraged and overwhelmed.
Bea Seibert
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Thanks tcw, interesting insights. It was supposedly motile, but nobody mentioned a flagella as far as I've heard.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Clindamycin is also used with quinine to treat babs...
Posts: 116 | From Ann Arbor, MI | Registered: Nov 2007
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adamm
Unregistered
posted
If they stopped doing them, I'd suspect it was because they were threatened from on high.
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seekhelp
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It's amazing how this stuff happens. How can anyone not think someone high is pushing buttons?
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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Page up on this thread -- I said that Fry stopped doing his new PCR genus tests for Bart and Babs temporarily. Plan is to resume tests, but I was not told a target date.
These were very new tests -- think last November was the first I heard about them.
posted
I don't understand why each lab does not request blood from the same person and send it to the CDC for comparison or at least send the blood samples to each other. I know labs are competitive, but so much more could be accomplished quickly if they worked together. Grr.
Hiker53
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10168 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
TCW - Plaquenil is an immune modulator, but it is still anti-malarial;protozoan. It only "slightly" suppresses the immune system. I have never tested "positive" for Lyme. I have only had Bartonella titers. I have friends that have treated with enough antibiotics to kill a horse and they continue to relapse and have the bug in their smear.
The organism has a tail and is very motile. We can speculate all we want, but when we have negative titers and no WB that is positive - is it Lyme?
Posts: 136 | From Arizona | Registered: Sep 2008
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CD57
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posted
Bears, are you saying that some of the individuals/sickest patients who have this organism actually may not have Lyme? That is quite astounding actually.
But it's not bartonella either?
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