-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
This is an interesting article for so many reasons. I must say that I was surprised with Dr. Mercola's comments, so I excerpted a few points that stood out like a sore thumb and added my two cents! ________________________________________
"The belief that ANY exposure to the sun was dangerous and needed to be avoided gravely concerned me..."
My comment: The sun is what cast me into a downward spiral back in 2005. Lots of people without sarc avoid the sun, so the sunlight issues (for some patients) continues to be enigmatic and problematic to both patients and researchers.
"Sarcoidosis is Only Disease Where Vitamin D Levels Are an Enigma; Marshall Protocol (aka MP) will cure a long list of chronic inflammatory and autoimmune diseases..."
My comment: Many other doctors and practitioners other than Marshall employ antimicrobials for a range of medical conditions, some with excellent results. So singling him out for this exercise is peculiar when pulsed antibiotic therapies have helped tens (if not 100s) of thousands of patients.
"Herx is the effect of bacterial dye-off, releasing toxins into the bloodstream, stimulating the production of inflammatory cytokines, which make the patient feel bad. So, Marshall believes, if you don't feel bad, it's not working..."
My comment: Hey, who wants to feel bad? But this reaction is well documented, and can be observed for many different remedies that kill or ``free'' encased bacteria. Is this herxing effect not proven by now as evidence of the process working?
"This is precisely why clinical trials are necessary before conclusions about causation can be drawn. There are simply too many variables..."
My comment: Absolutely right. Why Marshall Protocol patients aren't vigorously surveyed (in place of or part of a trial) is truly a shame. Many people could have benefited by the collection of patient outcomes.
"Most healing can be achieved by supporting your body's own ability to heal itself by strengthening your immune system..."
My comment: I believe this opinion is a worthy ideal, but it is not realistic. How many of us can appreciate the incredible biology of Bb and other mycobacteria? Borrelia spirochetes are proven to OUTRUN and outsmart the immune system - this is documented science. You can ``strengthen'' your immune system all you want with $10,000 worth of supplements, but the bugs will return with an immune trauma or triggering event (other bugs, accidents, surgery, etc).
"Taking antibiotics for years, as directed by the MP, is just ludicrous and is an invitation for disaster. There are certainly times when antibiotics are necessary, but they are widely overused...For every time they are used appropriately in traditional medicine, there are at least 10 to 20 times when they are inappropriately used, and this is what has resulted in antibiotic-resistant bacteria.."
My comment: I needed to take several pulsed antibiotics for 2+ years to rid my body of the high germ load. If I didn't I'd be dead or VERY sick now. He may be referring (or should be) to the pushing of free antibiotics that include penicillin's and others that are know to drive certain infections deeper (by challenging certain bacteria, they literally change form. I believe this is proven). Also, for the most pressing concern about antibiotics, see the New York Times article about the over-medication of pigs in our food supply: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/opinion/15kristof.html?_r=3&em
"In the past I have used antibiotics for rheumatoid arthritis when I was applying Dr. Thomas Brown's protocol. Even though Dr. Brown clearly helped many thousands of patients with this, after using it for many years I realized that even better results could be achieved without the use of antibiotics..."
My comment: Is this true? Can anyone show proof of long-term efficacy with clinical data? I don't believe it, though I hope it's true! I think Mercola is falling into the same trap of the same doctor he is criticizing?
"If infectious agents do underlie disease, which is certainly possible but remains to be proven, antibiotics are not the answer. For example, for thousands of years, Chinese medicine has been curing infections with herbs, mushrooms, bark, and other natural agents..."
My comment: Huh? This is a doctor wondering if infectious agents cause disease? Are you kidding me?! The microbes and viruses in man's ecosystem are more highly evolved and pathogenic than ever before. They are much more challenging than the ``bugs 1.0'' versions of yesteryear.
"However, Herx reactions are known to occur only with certain types of infections such as Lyme and syphilis. They normally occur only early in treatment and typically last a few days or weeks, not months or years, and only in some people--not in all people..."
My comment: This assumption does not account for the distribution of pathogens throughout a patient's body, the depth and variability of infections, the biofilm protecting the bugs, detox potential, etc. etc. How many of us have herxed with conditions other than Lyme?! ______________
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Leelee
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19112
posted
I am confused on a few points. I kept wondering if I was reading correctly or was my brain scrambled up (again).
Cold Feet, I picked up on the things you commented on too. Especially odd to me was his statement that better results can be achieved by not using antibiotics and also that the body's own immune system can heal itself if given the proper support.
I am new to Lyme, not a scientist, nor a doctor, (just a homemaker) but my common sense tells me that antibiotics were developed in response to a need to combat bacterial infections that the body could not fight on its own.
Someone once told me that a good approach to medicine in general is to consider the use of Eastern medicine and alternative medicine where applicable and to be grateful for the invention of antibiotics at the same time.
-------------------- The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr Posts: 1573 | From Maryland | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
There are more infections other than lyme and syphilis that cause herx when treated with antibiotics. I forgot which, but there are officially at least four.
(And I was wondering about Mercola too, and what about long-term antibiotics for lyme sprang to my mind. Or , does he have some better solution for lyme and co-infections? maybe someone should ask.
Chlorella and krill oil will not do the trick. Or, is it about his vitamin D- non-tanning-beds?)
nora
Posts: 366 | From Europe | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
I have stayed in touch with several people that have gone into recovery on the MP and gone back to a normal life from lyme.
Some from this board. Everyone has to go down their own road to recovery. Even when I went to see Dr. C a couple of years ago he mentioned of some patients recovering from the MP.
So what works for one may not work for another. I know of some people that flat couldn't tolerate benicar so they had to stop.
Posts: 805 | From Utopia | Registered: Feb 2006
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Does anyone happed to know if Dr. Mercola is ILADS-friendly? Given the article, it does not appear to be the case.
TreePatrol, your thoughts on this mess?!
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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emla999/Lyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12606
posted
I don't know if Dr. Mercola is ILADS friendly or not but he will be speaking at the 2009 LYME INDUCED AUTISM CONFERENCE.
Dr. Mercola, is also a friend of Dr. K's. So, it would appear as though Dr. Mercola at least believes that chronic Lyme Disease exists.
Posts: 1223 | From U.S.A | Registered: Jul 2007
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minoucat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5175
posted
jarjar pretty much sums it up for me.
When you get down to individuals, the number of people helped by one treatment or another is irrelevant if you can't tolerate that treatment.
It's a huge shame that the MP mess led to such poor data gathering -- we have no idea why it worked (or what part of it worked) for some and not for others.
As with so many LD treatments...too many egos, too little data.
-------------------- ********************* RECIDITE, PLEBES! Gero rem imperialem! (Stand aside plebians! I am on imperial business.)
Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
I get Dr. Mercola's enewsletter every issue.
He is a BIG, BIG proponent of vitamin D suppliments, and regularly highlights studies showing that low 25-D blood levels correlate to higher incidence of various physical problems, including some cancers, heart disease, etc. Right from the start, he would not be likely, therefore, to become a fan of the Marshall Protocol.
Since the antibiotics on the MP are pulsed and taken at VERY low doses, that these would cause antibiotic resistance seems improbable to me. Truly, Lyme is already antibiotic resistant!!!!
Some of the other statements in the article Mercola references (which I have also read) are illogical, such as the idea that no one but an MD can actually come up with a useful treatment. In reality, it is OFTEN individuals from outside a field that can see a controlling simplicity where "experts" see only a morass of complexity. Dr. Barry Sears (PhD), who developed the Zone Diet, which revolutionized weight loss programs, comes to mind.
It is clear that some people have serious adverse effects when trying the MP. Many others have serious adverse effects from other protocols also--we have plenty of statements about them here at Lymenet!!
I know, personally, that I get very bad fatigue reactions from being in the sun, and have since I was quite young. If I wanted to need to sleep even more, I'd spend time out in the sun!!! LOL!!!
I have found Dr. Mercola's advice useful at times and not useful at others.
We each need to do our own investigation and make our own decisions about our treatment paths, in my opinion. Having clear, honest reporting from others about their personal experiences is very, very helpful in making the best possible choices.
Love,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Marshall is a Dr of elecreical engineering not a medical Dr .I think hes wrong on v D. Right on abx's minocin.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
IMO criticism of an approach is fine provided the critic also offers a better option. I spent years and tons of money trying other options, and they made me worse. None produced the improvement that I've experienced on the MP. YMMV
Posts: 727 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I'm sorry but Dr.Marshall has a PHD. in Biomedical engineering. For those that don't know Biomedical engineers seek new treatments for diseases. His wife has her degree in pharmacology.
ImmuneSupport.com: Please introduce yourself to our readers by giving some background on your medical training and practice.
Dr. Trevor Marshall, Ph.D.: I graduated Bachelor of Engineering (w/w statistics) from the University of Adelaide in 1974. I spent a year in Papua New Guinea teaching at the University of Technology in Lae, and then spent 6 years teaching at Curtin University in Western Australia. During that tenure I received my Masters Degree and commenced my PhD Research at the University of Western Australia, in Biomedical Engineering. It was an exciting time. Another UWA student, Dr Barry Marshall (no relation) had just discovered that the bacterium Helicobacter Pylori was the cause of stomach ulcers, and the teaching hospital where we did our clinical research ('Sir Charles Gairdner') was full of 'new ideas'. My mentors were convinced that we needed to develop a totally different approach to medicine.
Posts: 805 | From Utopia | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
MP has it's place, patient selection for the protocol should be done with great care.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
This is a good thread; it's thoughtful, respectful and constructive. I don't think this could have happened here last year because of the negativity around Dr Marshall.
OK, my turn to cause trouble:
JarJar, what the heck are you talking about with the comment about immunesupport.com? I must have missed the reference...
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Just commenting that Dr. Marshall has a PHD. in biomedical engineering.
Biodmedical engineers seek out treatments for disease.
Posts: 805 | From Utopia | Registered: Feb 2006
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
I have a friend who did the Marshal protocol and swears by it. It gave him tremendous improvement and he is fully functional.
Who are we to criticize what works for someone. It's not like we have the answer. Some get great help from ABX, some a little, some very little.
We are here to learn and support each other and have an open mind. We are all individuals and some
things will appeal to us and some won't and some of us will be willing to take greater risks that others. It's our free choice.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
I suppose I have to represent the "hostile" contingent here. From what I have seen, and those I have spoken with, the MP is not a great choice for most Lymies. The failure rate is very high. True, some are very successful -- but most are not. And some of those that are not successful are harmed terribly, and longterm.
I think that the MP folks need to make this clear -- but instead, they pretend that this problem does not exist, and that this therapy will cure everything from leprosy to a hangnail, while simultaneously turning back the hands of time! And that there are NO failures.
That's what troubles me.
Oh. And, according to this, Marshall IS an electrical engineer, at least that's what his degree is in.
posted
The bottome line is that there can be dangers in many lyme treatments be it liver damage from high dose abx or serious complications from IV drips.
One needs to read up and talk with people about various lyme treatments before jumping into it.
Posts: 805 | From Utopia | Registered: Feb 2006
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
I am neither for or against the MP for myself personally, but as other people have said. If you choose to do it, it's often because you've come to a point where you think you need to give it a shot.
I'm perfectly ok with that, and would do that myself if I felt other less risky options were necessary. I mean let's face it. How many of us actually get sun even with our regular treatments? *lol*
That's a joke, not a questions or statement. I think the MP works on some patients -- not a few, not just a little, but a respectable number. This is based on my experience over the years reading patient reports. I've also read the website carefully and investigated.
Risk to benefit people -- when you're out of options, and conventional medicine has run it's course (Let's face it, convention doesn't even exist for us -- we're already far far left of center just taking long term antibiotics, nevermind co-infections -- especially chronic co-infections, toxicity, and on and on)
Point being, I am skeptical, but I am not stupid. Always be thoughful about things even if you don't understand them
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by jarjar: Just commenting that Dr. Marshall has a PHD. in biomedical engineering.
Biodmedical engineers seek out treatments for disease.
According to Mercola quote
Dr.'' Marshall is Not a Physician and Doesn't Even Have a Biology Degree
For those of you who are not familiar with the protocol recommended by Trevor Marshall, I will briefly summarize its basic tenets, as I understand them, before going on.
First it is important to note that Dr. Marshall is not a medical doctor but freely uses the doctor salutation to add credibility to his questionable theories.
Marshall is an Australian electrical engineer who developed an interest in biomedical engineering out of a desire to cure his own sarcoidosis, which he developed in the 1970s[i]. He has no medical degree. His theories come from mathematical molecular models, not clinical studies.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
My point exactly is that this is an attack based on WHO the person is--what AUTHORITY he has been granted by some institution--not whether his ideas work or not.
Marshall has a doctorate. He signs his posts "Trevor."
If we here on Lymenet bowed down to MEDICAL AUTHORITY, we would all be patients of Infections Disease Specialists and no one would question anything!
In fact, Lymenet would not exist, because everyone would be doing exactly what an MD told them to do.
Please, truly it is possible for someone who is not completely brainwashed by the medical model to come up with a new and effective approach to physical problems!
PS--when you find out how corrupted "clinical studies" have been--what has been published, what has been hidden, etc., due to BigPharma-- attacking someone based on no "clinical studies" makes even less sense.
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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