Topic: My top 10 possible reasons for worsening of symptoms during antibiotic treatment.....
AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
Off the top of my head & in no particular order:
1) Jarisch-Herxheimer response (AKA the dreaded "Herx")
2) Yeast Overgrowth - Make sure you take a good probiotic 2-3 hours away from your ABX to help prevent this. (Note: die off of yeast also causes symptoms of it's own)
3) You may have developed Nutritional Deficiencies
4) Coinfections may be coming to the forefront
5) Bb may have morphed into another form that's not being hit by the ABX you're taking
6) Toxins - You may have a build up of toxins from bacterial die-off. (need to detox!! Hot Epsom Salts baths & drinking lots of lemon water is sometimes helpful for me)
7) Dehydration - Sometimes when we're exhausted we neglect to take in enough fluids
8) Electrolyte Imbalance - excessive sweating, diuretics & laxatives or diarrhea/vomiting can cause this.
9) Adverse reaction to, side effect of or interaction between Medications.
10) You may have developed some other illness that's totally unrelated to your Tick-borne diseases!!!
I plan to come back & post links for info (explanations/definitions/suggestions for self-help where possible)on these topics, I don't have time right now.
If anyone can think of others, please feel free to add your own ideas and/or post links to threads or sources you think are helpful.
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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adamm
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posted
Bugs are of strains inherently resistant to the meds you're taking?
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AliG
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posted
GOOD ONE!!! Thanks adamm
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
ali, good list and good post...
... not being treated long enough with strong enough antibiotics
... food allergies or sensitivities acting up that you never knew you had before
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AliG
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Member # 9734
posted
More good possible reasons!
I was assuming a bactericidal dose when I was writing this. People also feel worse during ABX Tx when the dose is too low.
People can actually develop NEW food allergies & sensitivities too. I believe that may have to do with the permeability of the intestinal membrane and particles that are too large getting through.??? (AKA "Leaky Gut")
Thanks Betty!
[ 09-20-2009, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: AliG ]
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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AZURE WISH
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Member # 804
posted
* Immune sytem being increasingly taxed (like when we get the flu or a cold)
* change in hormones (how many of us women will attest to this one )
AliG
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Member # 9734
posted
Wow there really ARE a lot of reasons!
I forgot about the dip in our immunity during Estrus too! (that one does only apply to women though )
Thanks Azure!
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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AliG
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Member # 9734
posted
I didn't even mention a co-infection that has been in the background coming to the forefront.
That's a biggee!
Insufficient Hydrochloric Acid and Digestive Enzyme production, leading to improper digestion of food, can cause flatulence and frequent thin, foul-smelling, greasy stools and malnutrition if it's not addressed.
It may also be mistaken by us for yeast overgrowth, but will not respond to anti-yeast meds & increased probiotics.
Important note: Insufficient Hydrochloric acid would NOT cause watery, blood-tinged, or mucous containing diahrea.
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
1) Seasonal; for whatever reason many tend to flare in spring or fall.
2) Overdoing it; when treating many of us have limited energy, and really get walloped after too much activity (which, of course, varies between patients).
3) Targeting the wrong bugs.
4) Giant anvil and/or piano falls from sky and crashes onto head; self explanatory.
Posts: 845 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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AliG
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Member # 9734
posted
#4 - GOOD ONE!
Have you been watching too many Bugs Bunny/ Roadrunner cartoons?
Thanks for the laugh.
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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AliG
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Member # 9734
posted
Trauma from stress and/or injury.
(Which may include dental work. )
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
I'm wondering about feeling worse when the dose is too low. So can you give me your input?
I started 50mg plaquenil/250mg Biaxin EVERY OTHER DAY on 8/21, had increase pain for 11 days and then had a week when I could actually sleep 7 hrs and also decrease pain meds by almost 50%.
Increased to every day and still improved for 3 more days and then It has been down hill from there. I am very sick, flu like fatigue, pain meds increased with no relief.
I thought starting slowly would be helpful for me as I could not handle being completely pushed over the edge. We will be going up once I get to the phase of feeling better. I has been 12 days on the everyday dose. It is an obvious decline to me.
Is the pain from bacteria die off or too low a dose and why would to low a dose cause increase in symptoms? If I can hardly tolerate this dose what am I going to do at the REAL dose I need?
Also, how is a yeast infection diagnosed? Itching symptoms?
Posts: 207 | From NH | Registered: Jul 2009
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-------------------- Seeking renewed health & vitality. --------------------------------- Do not take anything I say as medical advice - I am NOT a dr! Posts: 830 | From TN | Registered: Aug 2007
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AliG
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posted
I'm a little confused as to why you think the lower dose would be causing pain. Did you decrease the dose again?
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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I didn't decrease the dose I just understand that 50mg plaquenil/250mg biaxin is a low dose by lyme treatment standards. I believe he is working me up to 200mg plaquenil/1000mg biaxin so that is what I mean by low dose. I started out every other day and have only gone up.
You said, "I was assuming a bactericidal dose when I was writing this. People also feel worse during ABX Tx when the dose is too low."
So I got confused as to why someone would feel worse on too low a dose and was trying to discern if this was my issue.
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AliG
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Member # 9734
posted
I think what was meant by that was if someone was on a dose that was not sufficient to be bactericidal they may continue to decline & it may not be herxing.
Sometimes LLMDs will start out with a very low dose to see how you react.
Herxing can be very severe if the bacterial load is very high and sometimes starting out with a high dose can land patients in the hospital.
A bacteriostatic dose will still keep the organism in check & your immune system may be able to take some of it out. That would produce a herx because there would be SOME die off.
Yeast can cause gastrointestinal disturbances, sores in the mouth, a coating on the tongue.
Are you asking because you are experiencing itching symptoms?
You might not be detoxing adequately.
Are you drinking plenty of water and restricting your intake of sugars, refined grains (white bread, white rice, cakes, cookies, etc?
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Pinelady
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Member # 18524
posted
Opportunistic infections like parasites.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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Siciliano
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Ali, I am learning so much from you starting this post.
I did not know about feeling so horribly could be from the very low dose a former llmd had me on. He never treated my aggresively like I hear from others.
Is it best to be treated with higher doses than suffering on low doses?
Purplemom, I identify with you completely. Had the same experience as you are having.
I am hoping I can learn more here for I need to find a new llmd and do not want to make the same mistakes as my former llmd made with me.
I so appreciate this thread so very much, thank you so much for all of this great information.
-------------------- I'm sorry but I am no longer accepting any private messages due to my own battle with lyme. Posts: 3897 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Jun 2008
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I believe from what AliG wrote is that it would be feeling bad from getting to low a dose over the long term, that would mean you were not being treated adequately. However, starting on a low dose because the doc does not want to send you over the edge is another story.
AliG, I'm not itching but am convinced I will probably get a yeast infection being on antibiotics long term.
"Are you drinking plenty of water and restricting your intake of sugars, refined grains (white bread, white rice, cakes, cookies, etc?"
Plenty of water = 8 cups per day? or more?
restricting sugars? well the doc mentioned using an adkins type diet but i'm wondering what is considered low carb (ie 150grams carb per day or less?)
Do the yeast just like the refined carb or the carb found in nutritious foods like fruit, milk and whole grains (oatmeal)? I have a very difficult time with my appetite and protein makes me want to barf. So this is a problem. I'll have oatmeal for bfast (with blueberries and raisins) but find it hard to eliminate adding brown sugar because it makes it edible.
So completely eliminating refined sugar is not realistic for me and that is why I dread a yeast infection. Is there some other way? I can be careful but even today for breakfast having a carnation instant breakfast with soy milk and frozen strawberries. They had run out of the sugar free kind (of carnation) but I know I can decrease that in the future. Total carbs was about 50 to 60 gms. Some from sucrose, lactose and fructose. My daily carbs are 150 to 180 grams right now, most from non-refined sources.
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springshowers
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19863
posted
How about.
Flare of Lyme - since we cycle alot
or
Rebitten and reinfected ?
or
Addition or aquiring of new co infection
or
Flare of co infections as you target lyme
These have happened to me.... and contributed to my "worsening" of symptoms while being treated after ruling out the others you listed.
And worst of worst
FULL Relapse due to stressor on system .. Such as FLU or Trauma or some issues that hits the body hard enough to let everyone come back to the forefront.
If these were mentioned already.. I apologize. I read most of the thread but not 100 percent.
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AliG
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posted
quote:Originally posted by purplemom: Siciliano,
I believe from what AliG wrote is that it would be feeling bad from getting to low a dose over the long term, that would mean you were not being treated adequately. However, starting on a low dose because the doc does not want to send you over the edge is another story.
Exactly.
Different LLMDs may have different philosophies regarding whether it is better to be very aggressive or more cautious from the onset of treatment.
As it is possible for a severe Herheimer reaction to do damage of its own. Many will start out slow & build to a more aggressive treatment level once they become familiar with your reactions.
You should start another thread to discuss diet because you'll likely get A LOT more information that way.
I believe that the source of your carbohydrates is more important than just the number because different carbs are metabolized at different rates.
Some find Diflucan/fluconazole to be a helpful adjunct to ABX therapy if yeast overgrowth DOES become an issue.
Multiple strains of probiotics need to be taken daily, to replenish that which is killed of by the ABX.
According to the Atkins Diet (after the induction phase which is much stricter), the blueberries (& other berries & melon)would be OK in small quantities with other lower carb foods.
The raisins(& grapes would be considered a "no-no". They are actually considered pre-biotic, as are bananas, they will feel probiota & YEAST. If you are going to eat them, you'd better be taking probiotics with them.
A better choice than the brown sugar would be a small amount of honey. Honey contains enzymes that make it less detrimental, though it should still only be taken in limited quantity.
"I have a very difficult time with my appetite and protein makes me want to barf."
For me, this was a symptom of Babesiosis. (Though I guess other things could cause it too Gallbladder issues, insufficient stomach acid/enzymes...)
Have you tested/treated for Babesiosis?
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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I have not been tested for babesiosis. Would plaquenil or biacin happen to take care of that? I was given the idea that the tests for co-infections are not all that accurate? Do you want to kill off the lyme and then battle co-infections?
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Very helpful post and a great idea ALiG.
No heavy metal binder on board when killing borrelia heavy metals are released when killing borrelia. If heavy metals are not moved out of the system, they can deposit in locations that cause symptoms or make one sicker.
Mold exposure Adds to the toxin load with toxins that are similar to borrelia toxins. Can be devastating for those who do make make enough antibodies to get rid these type of toxins. Mold can also depress the immune system making it harder to get rid of lyme.
To expand more on detox issues - not a comprehensive discussion so look through the archives for more info
Some patients have genetic factors that need to be addressed in order to effectively get rid of toxins created by borrelia, heavy metals released when borrelia is killed etc.. For these people, the right binders are necessary or they will likely get very sick with lyme treatment.
Borrelia and mycotoxins (from mold) can cause low oxygen conditions due to their effect on VEGF. Also disrupts red blood cell formation which further reduces oxygen to the tissues. Borrelia loves low oxygen so this makes a good environment for borrelia. Low oxygen causes severe fatigue and other symptoms.
See "Mold Warriors" for info on HLA testing. Search the archives for info on binders etc.
Methylation cycle blocks that cause lowered glutathione etc..
posted
up
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AliG
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Beth,
From my understanding, the co-infections need to be addressed or you'll never get rid of the Lyme.
I do believe that the meds you are presently taking are intending to address Babesiosis. I didn't even realize that, sorry (I'm battling a bit of a Bb relapse myself right now.)
Babs Tx would be a different story. I was completely crushed during Babs Tx. For me, feeling better corresponded to delayed decrease in AB titers. There were days during Babs Tx that I could barely get out of bed and would have to get back in there ASAP.
I've never taken or researched Plaquenil, so I really can't offer you my experience with it. Perhaps a thread looking for others experience with Biaxin & Plaquenil might give you a better idea as to how others reacted & what they encountered.
Personally, I believe that some strains of Babesiosis may be more difficult to eradicate than others. I also believe that it's possible to have more than one strain & rid only one.
Terry-
Thanks for more interesting input!
Ahmet-
Thanks for the lift!
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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