posted
Ok, this was a post on another thread where the contributor did not know how to post a new thread...so I will put it for them.
"Hello everyone, I couldn't find how to start a thread about myself. I think I have Lyme, but I'm sure my grandchld does because I isolated and identified the borrellia burgdorferi from her stool under my microscope. That as well as a few other co-pathogens.
Does anyone know why they don't utilize the obvious physical organisms by matching them as I have done? If nothing else, it could be a contributor to the testing process.
sincerely, Kritters
Posts: 893 | From Florida | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18524
posted
The only reason I can think of is they don't have
to. Not to be bold but honest. Thank you for this
insight. This is hope. Maybe you could contact the
Lyme testing companies and see what they suggest. It might get things going.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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'Kete-tracker
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 17189
posted
This sounds like a pile of s%$#, if you'll excuse the phrasing. Do you honestly believe, Need, that a person who thinks they have Lyme but is "sure" his/her grandchild has Lyme because he/she "isolated and identified the borrellia burgdorferi from her stool under my microscope" even deserves any creedence? First- why would the live BB be in a human stool? Atleast at a great enough concentration to be fortunate to have a microscopic slide sample that reveals some of the borrelia? Second, where did they get their $$$ dark-field microscope? No ordinary 'scope will work Third, how in the Heck do you "identify" BB apart from any other borrelia...by SIGHT? CAN'T be done. Also, the next to last statement is non-sensical: "Does anyone know why they don't utilize the obvious physical organisms by matching them as I have done?" Utilize the obvious physical organisms? Utilize these "physical organisms" in what WAY?
Posts: 1233 | From Dover, NH | Registered: Sep 2008
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Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18524
posted
This dates to the 60's.ct: The spirochetes found in the feces of dogs were divided into three categories based on morphology. These were: borrelias, treponemes, and fairly large double-contoured organisms. Some variation was observed within each group. Classification or further subdivision was not attempted because definitive characteristics necessary for such a purpose were not available. The live organisms could be readily demonstrated when a wet preparation was viewed in phase contrast illumination under 400 X magnification. Of 54 dogs examined, nearly 80% had more than one type of spirochete in their feces. In addition, 16. 7% carried a single type. Only 3. 7% of dogs were found to be free of spirochetes. All three types of organisms were encountered in almost the same percentage of animals, although in some animals the borrelias were present in greater numbers than the remaining two types. It appears that the mere presence of these organisms in the feces cannot be interpreted as a sign of illness. However, when found in large numbers, they may be related to disease
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
For Bb in the GI system:
Tritec. Available in Europe or perhaps a compounding pharmacy can help.
This is why:
PMID: 12051564
Go to Pubmed and type in the above # to get the abstract.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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nenet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13174
posted
This person, Kritters, should take their grandchild to a LLMD immediately, for evaluation.
They are not a Doctor or medical professional, as far as I can determine, and are not authorized to diagnose anyone, much less their own family. If there are symptoms, that is all that they need to be evaluated by a Lyme specialist. They can then work to rule out other diseases and conditions that have similar symptoms.
If their grandchild or themselves are evaluated and found to have signs and symptoms of Tick-Borne Disease(s), then their LLMD can diagnose and treat them properly. If they are sick, they need professional evaluation.
As for Bb spirochetes, they need very expensive high-powered microscopes, and specific staining and viewing mediums.
Not to mention the process of isolating Bb organism from possible contaminants - for all he or she knows, they got a microscopic drop of spit on the slide and are looking at oral spirochetes.
Or they could be viewing something that just looks like a borrelia spirochete, if you don't have proper training, and know what to actually look for, at what size, weight, physical characteristics etc.. They, like many others have done in the past, could be seeing tiny worms etc., however, spirochetes are NOT worms or parasites.
If Kritters IS using darkfield microscopy and all the proper dyes, mediums, isolation and identification techniques, then all I posted is redundant. Do you run a lab?
Also to your question, they don't normally look for the whole organism because it is time and tools intensive, for very little payoff, as there are generally not very many organisms to be found in blood or biopsy samples. The Bb sequesters in collagen-rich and hard to reach areas like spinal cord, brain, heart, and deep tissues.
Looking for Bb spirochetes in blood, skin, lymph, and muscle biopsy is harder than looking for a needle in a haystack. Then there is the problem of the other forms Bb has been shown to take, like L-form (cell-wall deficient), cyst, bleb, etc. - they are either much more difficult to detect or much harder to identify.
posted
Dr. Tietelbaum (sp?) (endfatigue.com) talked a lot about how he used to play with stool in the lab to try to i.d. parasites and such. His conclusion was in order for it to be reliable their had to be an extreme amount of control over the testing. That's why he only recommends one lab for stool testing.
I think I read this in his book From Fatigued to Fantastic, but it may have been on the website I mentioned above. Sorry I don't have more specific info but this is from my spotty memory.
Posts: 22 | From Tampa, FL | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:I isolated and identified the borrellia burgdorferi
Identified how, exactly? 16S rRNA sequence, PCR based on Bb specific primers, general morphology, Magic 8-ball?
Isolating spirochetes from the GI tract does not necessarily mean infection with Bb (although it does not rule it out either). Identifying a specific species of bacteria is a strong assertion, how was that accomplished?
As to the question about utilizing the actual organism, the answer is in other threads as well - the organism itself is not reliably found in any specific tissue that can be biopsied without some degree of risk. An exception to that is probably the leading edge of an EM, but of course in that case a biopsy is not needed for diagnosis.
If you can isolate the actual bacteria itself in any quantity, than a PCR test can confirm species. Finding the actual organism in samples is the problem.
Posts: 263 | From Capital Region, NY, USA | Registered: Jun 2008
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nenet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13174
posted
This Kritters person just posted their own threads about this. Do they not know about this thread?
posted
Hey wow..... interesting responses. some very arrogant and rude, but I'll take them into consideration. I'd like to know the expertise levels of those responses, btw.
Well, I'm assuming most people realize how difficult it is to get positive tests for Lyme..yes? oh....yes. correct. Therefore, it doesn't seem that this is a hard and fast science involved with the ever-evasive lyme organism (gosh, I almost said LYMES) wouldn't that have been a major faux-pas, according to one person who pm'd me.
Obviously there ARE stool sample testings done, which in my feeble and uneducated mind could have the AUDACITY to think an ORDINARY microscope could POSSIBLY do the job that those in sophisticated laboratories could not.
Tell you what. When Lyme detection has become an easily administered and exact science...THEN you people can play the arrogant, haughty, indignant role when someone new comes on the forum with thoughts.
I see I made a major mistake coming here. Some of you people might want to see how other forums treat new people with Lyme concerns.
posted
I just have to note some really ignorant comments I saw again:
"this Kritters person"
"Not to mention the process of isolating Bb organism from possible contaminants - for all he or she knows, they got a microscopic drop of spit on the slide and are looking at oral spirochetes. "
Yes...I was drooling while looking at the samples. I have no control of my saliva.
Thank you Pinelady...regarding your mention of spirochetes in dogs' feces. You say an abundance could indicate disease.
My grandchild has an abundance.
If they can be in dog feces...they can be in human feces.
Someone else mentioned it was time consuming and not conducive to time/expense testing. hmmm.
I want to be clear on something here. For those of you who's hair stood on end because of my use of the words "I've isolated and identified"...If what I saw that matched the pictures of the organisms was not, in fact as I think....I'm researching Lyme forums for feedback on this, because believe me, I was as surprised as you are indignant. But I have learned NEVER to dismiss anything coming from 'lay' researchers. It seems 'we' are willing to put the time and thought into research that the 'professionals' are not. This is not to say we are educated and can make determinations on our own. This is why I came on this forum looking for a legitimate 'lyme specialist' doctor.
Interestingly there seems to be quite a SHORTAGE of them (could that possibly be because Lyme is so difficult to diagnose? So, if it's that difficult to diagnose, wouldn't that possibly be explained by the fact that not everything is known about DIAGNOSTIC TESTS???? Just a silly thought, I realize.
I'm always leery of people who pounce and spout nasty and intentionally intimidating negatives to people who think they have something of value to offer. Sort of reminds me of those involved in QUACKWATCH.....you know....those people who are paid to dispute any beneficial information.
-------------------- The Fungus Magnet Posts: 10 | From South Jersey | Registered: Apr 2009
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Carol in PA
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5338
posted
Hi GaryRN!
Posts: 6956 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Marnie: For Bb in the GI system:
Tritec. Available in Europe or perhaps a compounding pharmacy can help.
This is why:
PMID: 12051564
Go to Pubmed and type in the above # to get the abstract.
thank you Marnie, for that information. Quoting a last sentence from the article, "When B. burgdorferi is responsible for gastrointestinal symptoms, bismuth compounds may be candidates for eradication of the bacterium from the gastrointestinal tract."
This means Bb is in the intestines and therefore definitely in the stool.
Much appreciated. Kritters
-------------------- The Fungus Magnet Posts: 10 | From South Jersey | Registered: Apr 2009
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