Topic: How can you tell the difference between methylation issues or a toxic liver?
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
If your liver is toxic, how can addressing issues of methylation be of use?
Can anyone inform me/us about this? I've been studying all of these things & I just wonder about it. I'm not a scientist so I'm trying to learn.
You may try to fix things on a genetic level but if your liver is dysfunctional, does it matter?
Many of us have parasites, have taken alot of drugs, have various toxins which may decrease liver function. If you correct things on a genetic level - will it make much difference if your liver isn't functioning properly?
Same may be true of the bowels or kidneys...
Please share your thoughts.
----- from Wikipedia
Liver functions -
The breakdown of insulin and other hormones
The liver breaks down hemoglobin, creating metabolites that are added to bile as pigment (bilirubin and biliverdin).
The liver breaks down toxic substances and most medicinal products in a process called drug metabolism. This sometimes results in toxication, when the metabolite is more toxic than its precursor. Preferably, the toxins are conjugated to avail excretion in bile or urine.
The liver converts ammonia to urea.
Other functions
The liver stores a multitude of substances, including glucose (in the form of glycogen), vitamin A (1-2 years' supply), vitamin D (1-4 months' supply), vitamin B12, iron, and copper.
The liver is responsible for immunological effects- the reticuloendothelial system of the liver contains many immunologically active cells, acting as a 'sieve' for antigens carried to it via the portal system.
The liver produces albumin, the major osmolar component of blood serum.
-----
Biological methylation
Epigenetics
Methylation contributing to epigenetic inheritance can occur either through DNA methylation or protein methylation.
DNA methylation in vertebrates typically occurs at CpG sites (cytosine-phosphate-guanine sites; that is, where a cytosine is directly followed by a guanine in the DNA sequence); this methylation results in the conversion of the cytosine to 5-methylcytosine.
The formation of Me-CpG is catalyzed by the enzyme DNA methyltransferase. CpG sites are uncommon in vertebrate genomes but are often found at higher density near vertebrate gene promoters where they are collectively referred to as CpG islands. The methylation state of these CpG sites can have a major impact on gene activity/expression.
Protein methylation typically takes place on arginine or lysine amino acid residues in the protein sequence.[1]
Arginine can be methylated once (monomethylated arginine) or twice, with either both methyl groups on one terminal nitrogen (asymmetric dimethylated arginine) or one on both nitrogens (symmetric dimethylated arginine) by peptidylarginine methyltransferases (PRMTs).
Lysine can be methylated once, twice or three times by lysine methyltransferases. Protein methylation has been most well studied in the histones.
The transfer of methyl groups from S-adenosyl methionine to histones is catalyzed by enzymes known as histone methyltransferases. Histones which are methylated on certain residues can act epigenetically to repress or activate gene expression.[2][3]
Protein methylation is one type of post-translational modification.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
To determine if there's a liver backup, try liver flushes. Likely some pain will disappear and energy should increase, but likely won't fix everything.
To determine if there is s a phase 2 detoxification issue, the Genova labs Detoxigenomic panel should tell you everything you want to know.
For cheap genetic testing, the MTHFR panel through labcorp will suffice and explain some detoxication issues.
For methylation cycle, have doctor fax a request for the "Methylation Cycle Pathways" test to (732) 583-7774. The test is $300 and is through Vitamin Diagnostics in Cliffwood Beach, NJ. Last account I had, they froze received samples and shipped them to their parent lab, European Laboratory of Nutrients for testing. So results may take 3-4 weeks.
It's quite possible you'll find problems in all of the above. The two resolutions I know of are to do liver flushes and unblock the methylation cycle at methionine synthase.
For more on unblocking the methylation cycle, search GD-MCB which stands for Glutahione Depletion - Methylation Cycle Block. Two papers were presented last month at the IACFS conference in Reno on the hypothesis by the author Rich Van Konyneburg.
One paper was on the link to Lyme and the other was a research study summary that had excellent results.
For more about the GD-MCB protocol and the 5 suggested supplements, see the CFS_Yasko group in yahoo groups. All of the relevant papers and more are in the files section there.
Posts: 22 | From Tampa, FL | Registered: Apr 2009
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
Wow. Thank you! What smart folks we have here on Lymenet!
I just started doing the liver flushes (H. Clark method). I had such a strong response. I had ALOT of pain. I couldn't walk for about 10 days. I'm about to do the 3rd one in a couple of days.
It just occurred to me that getting the toxins out wouldn't work if one's liver was blocked - even if you did the simplified Yasko protocol.
It's interesting that we have to treat ourselves in layers. The toilet won't flush if the drain is clogged - so to speak.
Phase I detoxification involves a group of 50 to 100 enzymes called the cytochrome P450 system.
These enzymes play a central role in the detoxification of both exogenous (such as drugs and pesticides) and endogenous (such as hormones) compounds and in the synthesis of steroid hormones and bile acids.
A side effect of this metabolic activity is the production of free radicals, which are highly reactive molecules that will bind to cellular components and cause damage.
The most important antioxidant for neutralizing these free radicals is glutathione, which is needed both for Phase I and Phase II. When exposure to high levels of toxin produce so many free radicals from Phase I detoxification that all the glutathione is used up, Phase II processes dependent on glutathione stop.
This causes an imbalance between Phase I and Phase II activity, which results in severe toxic reactions, due to buildup of toxic intermediate forms.
Phase II detoxification involves conjugation, which means that a protective compound becomes bound to the toxin. Besides glutathione conjugation there are essentially five other pathways: amino acid conjugation, methylation, sulfation, sulfoxidation, acetylation and glucuronidation.
These enzyme systems need nutrients and metabolic energy in order to work. If the liver cells are not functioning properly, phase II detoxification slows down and increases the toxic load by allowing the buildup of toxic intermediates.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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cottonbrain
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13769
posted
me dumb but:
what's a liver flush? how do you do it?
Posts: 1173 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2007
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lymeberry
Unregistered
posted
A good acupuncturist should be able to tell you what is going on with your liver by your pulses and feeling different liver points to see if they are swollen. Get a liver panel done too.
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
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Sparkle -- the easiest way to tell if you need glutathione is to energetically test. Its faster and more efficient then any method I know of. Sometimes it will come back no if you body isn't ready to detoxify, but I think that is rare. If your is making enough glutathione to detoxify it should also give you a no.
If you get a yes, the liver isn't making enough and wants more.
Another way of looking at, is to get some whey powder or to just test at a health food store where they carry it. If you test to want it, you know the liver doesn't have enough of the precursors to generate it.
So energetically a good way of looking at a congested liver, your body tests to want bile salts, lecithin, and whey. If it tests negative for whey but wants glutathione, that to me is a very congested under performing liver.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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sparkle7
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posted
Look up Hulda Clark & liver flush on google for more info...
Thanks Bob. Good info. I just got the tube to make glutathione suppositories. I didn't test it in comparison to whey, though.
I think you have to do it in stages - hence the stage 1 & stage 2 issues. Trying to get to the more refined aspects don't really make sense unless you get the more base issues addressed.
For some reason, I never had alot of success with Chinese medicine. I don't trust any of those standard medical tests anymore, either. They are expensive & not any more accurate than my dowsing - in my experience.
MRI & various scans don't even pick up gall stones until they are calcified - which is way too late. The tests are a good way for the medical institutions to make tons of money.
I think the medical dowsing in more to the point. I don't think this liver issue came up in my Asyra test - so, we just have to keep feeling our way through all of this.
It's alot of onion layer peeling. The liver is way more important that I ever realized in all of this!
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
You can have normnal liver enzymes and still have a fatty liver or have methylation defects.
For a fatty liver the GGT may be elevated -- this is not part of the CMP blood panel but may be part of a hepatic panel depending on the lab. It may need to be ordered as a separate test. The best supplements for a fatty liver are phosphatidylcholine or lecithin.
The cheapest way to test for methylation problems is to test homocysteine levels. If your homocysteine is elevated then you are nutritionally depleted. Could be B vitamins, folinic acid or SAM-e deficiencies.
The Genova Diagnostics detox test -- not the genetic one, but the functional test is fairly inexpensive. Will give lots of info on both phase 1 and phase 2 liver detox. This test measures how your body processes caffeine, aspirin and acetaminophen I think.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Can anyone inform me/us about this? I've been studying all of these things & I just wonder about it. I'm not a scientist so I'm trying to learn.
I am not a scientist either, but I may be able to help you a bit, at least with the learning process in this case.
Generically, methylation is just a chemical reaction - adding a methyl group to a substance. In your post, you mention both methylation in the liver (as part of drug metabolism) and DNA methylation. They are the same reaction, but with very different purposes, DNA methylation is a way of protecting DNA from damage, methylation of substances in the liver is part of the metabolism of various substances. Protein methylation is adding a methyl group to a protein that has just been created from a DNA "blueprint" (post translation transcription).
If you look for information on generic methylation, you are going find a lot that is not related to liver function. Looking for information on hepatic metabolism may have better results.
Posts: 263 | From Capital Region, NY, USA | Registered: Jun 2008
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
Bea- If you get the Genova test & find out info about yourself, what can be done about it? Are there specific individual things to do or is it just general things that can help everyone. How do we know how accurate the results are?
I've had so many tests done & for the most part they have been inconclusive. I had low thyroid in a test & I did compounded thyroid meds for a while & my thyroid became better.
I was just reading that you can tell if your thyroid is low by putting some iodine on your skin & seeing how long it takes to soak in so you don't see it.
Based on that, you can see if you need to take some kelp or iodine... Does one really need to spend $1000s on tests & compounded meds if you can do it in a simple manner?
I guess if you have a serious issue but it just makes me mad about how much I've spent on tests & how little I actually found out. I have more stories about this to tell but I'd be here all day...
I just don't want to keep dishing money out for something I could figure out myself & self treat. I don't have insurance & all of this gets very expensive.
Thanks for the info about methylation, tcw. I see it's something that can affect many systems of the body.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Sparkle, the toilet metaphor is so true. Detox seems to be necessary no matter how wonderful our treatments.
I just believe that if you kill infections, treat cycles and detox, then most will resolve itself.
Coagulation seems to be a predominant issue and I'm not sure if it resolves through indirect treatment, so it may be best to test and treat as well.
We're all stuck with whatever genetics we have and that can put a hindrance on treatment, but I don't believe it's necessary to customize treatment around it.
I say that because the treatment study for GD-MCB took several different genetic typed patients and they all showed + results. It seemed genetics slowed some down, but they caught up after 6 months.
Side note is the patients thyroids regulated during the study.
Pall, Full Yasko, For What it's Worth, No Deficiency Left Behind, all protocols that are helpful but seem too exhaustive. We just don't know enough to put that much in our body.
For all we know D3 can intensify immune response and cause viral symptoms and possibly replication. It's so hard to figure what supplement blocks each other and what is helpful together.
I hate the testing and doctor's advised treatments. When it comes to the cycles, they don't seem to know much.
Personally I try to keep it as simple and effective as possible. I just don't have the money to do much different anyways.
I hope some of this was helpful and wish you the best in health.
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
Liver "flushes" can actually be very dangerous, especially if the body is overloaded with porphyrins. Depending upon how it is done, often, liver "flushes" can put more strain on the liver, not less.
GENTLE, on-going and specific liver support is vital, but pushing the liver will not help it work better. It's not like flushing a car radiator, so be very careful. Rather than "detox" being an event, consistent liver support (and eating the right foods) is essential to the liver being able to do its work.
. . . Individual variations in our cytochrome P40 enzymes help to demystify why there are so many variations in how we respond to drugs and herbs. . . .
The important thing to remember is that the liver is a hot (metabolically active) organ, and so tends to get congested and inflamed.
. . .
Protection
Turmeric root, wheat sprouts, schisandra berries, amla fruit, beet root and milk thistle seed are among the major sources of protective anti-oxidants for the liver cells, as are fruits that contain flavonoids, especially citrus fruits.
These should be used to prevent development of inflammatory disease, or for damage protection as in the case of persons taking strong chemical drugs or undergoing chemotherapy.
Deficiency
The liver can become weakened and deficient. If this is not corrected, it can lead to liver atrophy and depletion of glycogen stores, even hepatitis. Signs include fatigue, low blood pressure, hypoglycemia, dry eyes, headache, heat symptoms and irritability . . . .
Heat and Inflammation
To remove excess liver inflammation with heat signs or toxins . . . .
. . .
Pain
If there is liver inflammation with signs of pain and tension, use herbs that calm the liver and move the blood . . . .
If milk thistle is not on your plan, NAC might be considered:
This, from a protocol for Chlamydia Pneumonia (Cpn) which is a similar chronic stealth infection. This treatment protocol is also similar to that of chronic lyme.
This is what one of the protocol authors says about the power of NAC to help protet the liver:
. . . "Surprisingly, the only anti-chlamydial agent that did not cause hepatitis in some patients was NAC. In fact, NAC is recognized as being protective.
See attached references included.
My conclusion is that NAC should be the first agent in an anti-chlamydial regimen and should be a constant part of the therapy for this protective effect, not to mention it's effect against elementary bodies.
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
Thanks Keebler - I agree it;s not good to go overboard with things. I became very ill after doing the first liver flush. I did some dowsing & it said I should just continue & do more to get better. So, I did another flush & started taking some support herbs. Sometimes the way out is through...
I started feeling better. I really had no idea how far gone my liver was. It may have been like this for many years! I had no idea & no doctor I went to ever said anything about it.
I think my liver issues may have gone back to when I was 18 or younger. So, I am glad I did the flush. I'm going to continue with them. It's really amazing to see all of the gall stones come out. It does take time & it can make you worse. You do have to be careful but I think it's worth it.
I don't know if I would advise others to do it. I was very ill for about 2 weeks after doing it. I could not walk, I had such bad back pain. There are more gentle ways to go about it. The Hulda Clark method is pretty severe.
Dr. Schulze has some good protocols about it.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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massman
Unregistered
posted
Why flush and stress an aleady stressed organ ?
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I have used the InnoVita formulas - for other things. They are an interesting concept.
I really had no idea how bad off my liver was. i just figured I'd try it to clean out any toxins. I didn't think it would be as big an issue for me since I had no idea my liver was stressed to begin with.
I had loads of tests & no doctor I've seen ever mentioned it. That's part of the problem... There isn't much notice paid to the liver until it gets to the point of people having to have their gall bladder removed.
The gall stones do not show up on MRIs, etc. until they get calcified - which is when it's too late. Many doctors don't even believe people get gall stones in their livers... or people explain them as being "soap" made by taking olive oil to do the flush - which is ridiculous in my opinion.
It was difficult but I'm very glad I did it. I believe that this liver issue has been my problem & bottleneck in getting well. Most of my symptoms seem to extend from having a dysfunctional, clogged up liver.
Doing a liver flush is very simple & requires only a few basic ingredients. I'm very thankful that I tried it! I would have never known, otherwise.
I'm really seeing improvements! I'm going to do #3 liver flush very soon.
If anyone want more info, there's a good source on Curezone.com - just look under liver flush forum.... There's lots of info there.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Can a liver that is in bad shape cause both legs to spasm? As in non-stop? Been having this for 2 months and blood tests are good.
Electrolytes fine, mag. fine, potassium fine.
Had the needles and electricity test. Fine.
Going Monday to a team of neuroligists. So scared it is MS brought on by my Dx of Lyme in April of last year.
Pretty scared. Taking Doxy 200 mg. 2 x daily. Magnesium supplements. My legs feel weak and they burn also. any ideas?
Posts: 145 | From Paris, Tn. | Registered: Dec 2008
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lymeparfait
Unregistered
posted
Sparkle, is this the two day version with grapefruit or the three week version with lemons of the liver flush choices I have seen on Hulda Clark type sites?
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I just did the 2 day versions. I bought some lemons to do the 5 day blender drink but I tested NO for it. I was pretty scared since I was in so much pain but I just trusted my intuition about it & did another flush.
I think you just have to keep doing them for a while until it's time to stop. I think you will know when it's time to stop if you are in touch with your body.
I think this whole protocol & concept of wellness is great. It's relatively simple. If I could go back, I'd probably do all of the cleanses. Doing them in order makes sense.
I don't think I have a big parasite, bowel, or kidney problem. I may go back & do them anyway just to be sure.
I don't see how you can get better if your bowels, kidney or liver are not functioning well or if you have parasites.
Dr. Schulze has a pretty good protocol, too. You may want to look into that, as well. He has a 30 day protocol called the Incurables Program. Doesn't seem like a bad thing to do if you can manage it.
Sorry, I don't know Zebco 33...
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Hi - I had a liver enzyme test done, the detoxigenomic one done through Genova Diagnostics in N Carolina, which shows our genetic capability to detox.
The methylation pathway was the first one in Phase II of liver detox.
The doc also had me do a bloodtest for homocysteine to see the current level before beginning any supplementation.
There are lots of ways to pursue methylation correction. I will start with a hydroxyl VitB12 powder.
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
Is it really necessary to do the tests for methylation? Why not just do the Yasko simplified protocol? Doesn't seem to be harmful...
-----
Best to start off very slow & work it up (from what I've read)...
from planetthrive.com
Protocol: The simplified approach includes taking the following oral supplements daily, all of which are available from Dr. Yasko's supplement website at http://www.holisticheal.com
1/4 tablet (200 micrograms) Folapro (Folapro is 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate, an active form of folate, which is sold by Metagenics with a license from Merck, which holds the patent on synthesis).
1/4 tablet Intrinsic B12/folate (This includes 200 micrograms of folate as a combination of folic acid, 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate, and 5-formyl tetrahydrofolate, aka folinic acid or leucovorin (another active form of folate), 125 micrograms of vitamin B12 as cyanocobalamin, 22.5 milligrams of calcium, 17.25 milligrams of phosphorus, and 5 milligrams of intrinsic factor)
(up to) 2 tablets (It's best to start with 1/4 tablet and work up as tolerated) complete vitamin and ultra-antioxidant from Holistic Health Consultants (This is a multivitamin, multimineral supplement with some additional ingredients. It does not contain iron or copper, and it has a high ratio of magnesium to calcium. It contains antioxidants, some trimethylglycine, some nucleotides, and several supplements to support the sulfur metabolism.)
1 softgel capsule Phosphatidyl Serine Complex (This includes the phospholipids and some fatty acids)
1 sublingual lozenge Perque B12 (2,000 micrograms hydroxocobalamin with some mannitol, sucanat, magnesium and cherry extract)
1 capsule SAMe (200 mg S-adenosylmethionine)
1/3 dropper, 2X/day Methylation Support Nutriswitch Formula (This is an RNA mixture designed to help the methylation cycle. It is not essential, but is reported to be helpful.)
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
R62, beware methyl donors. Ask that in ch3neutrigenomics.com or CFS_Yasko in Yahoo Groups. More savvy genetic folks in those groups.
Personally I think folks get too caught up in the genetics. They are a progress rate limiter just like how much detox one can handle. Yet progress is still possible on the same protocols as was shown in the GD-MCB research study.
INTRINSIC/B12/FOLATE WAS CHANGED! Manufacturer removed an active ingeredient so the protocol's author suggest Actifolate instead.
I didn't do the methylation test. My symptoms and some labs gave me enough to start it on my own. I saw a little progress daily for the first six weeks and have subsided many symptoms.
I guess I did the right thing.
Biggest personal setback is still infections...borrelia, babesia, parasites, viruses and God knows what else.
Just as a warning. The GD-MCB protocol (simple Yasko) is skipping the detox step of Yasko's full protocol. See pg. 49 of The Puzzle of Autism.
The doses are low and one should work up to them slowly because when detox hits, it's hard to slow down...even after stopping supplements it lasts for a while.
The first 5 supplements Sparkle listed above are the suggested (save for Actifolate instead of Intrinsi)
The last two supplements are optional.
Of the optionals: SAMe has been shown to be very helpful but can be costly and progress can be made without it. & The RNA is helpful to reduce detox and rebuild damaged DNA, from what I understand.
You can think of the methylation cycle as something you tear down from the top that has to be rebuilt from the bottom. That's why you don't supplement glutathione to get the body producing it again.
Many protocols/treatments are kind of like building a chair with 2 or 3 legs. They treat this or that, but don't correct the issue & it won't sit well.
The Simplified Protocol for GD-MCB (Glutathione Depletion-Methylation Cycle Block) builds the chair with 4 legs and a spare, IMO.
The one supplement that can only be ordered through holistic health is the Gen. Vit. Neurological multivitamin.
The rest can be gotten wherever they're the cheapest, but should stick to the suggested brands, or closest possible.
Ordering all of them as suggested through holistic health at first can be helpful to see the contents.
Or, I have a nutritional breakdown of all of them, if wanted, PM me with an email and I'll forward it.
I don't make money off any of this and thank God I'm not a Doctor, nor giving advise.
Just a recovering fella sharing something for others to look at and make their own informed decisions about.
Enough rambling! Take Care
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